Ukraine Payday: G7 to Agree $50-Billion Loan at Italy Summit

[Right_in_Virginia]

The Europeans can't manage their own damn continent's security.  They proved that in Bosnia and Kosovo.

This is tiresome excuse that keeps getting a lot of people killed.

It's past time for the US to cut the cord with Europe.  If they want to keep throwing wars, we don't have to keep accepting the invitations----- in fact, Europe just might stop throwing these parties if the had to pay the full price for the catering.

More than enough American blood, treasure and time has been spent over this continent of inbred warmongers.  Let's refocus on strengthening our own nation and the budding democracy and capitalism breaking out in our own neighborhood.  The US, and the world, will be safer for it.

America is helping Ukraine in the hopes that it will avoid American bloodshed neutralizing Russian aggression.

This shows stunning ignorance not only of Ukrainian history, but of our role since 2014 in actively fomenting this current shi#thow.

[Right_in_Virginia]

I don't think Rand or Ron are idiots. They really shine in certain areas. Foreign policy isn't one of them. Isolationism won't work at this time.

@berdie

IMO, isolationism is not the same as America First --- America First is not about no involvement in foreign affairs, but involvement only when everything, from the money, to the weapons, to the engagement, to US prestige are used in the economic and national security best interests of the United States.   

Rand and Ron Paul have always had the courage to buck the military-industrial complex and return our attention to Washington's advice and warning. I think they're each a bright light in foreign affairs. 

The following is from Washington's farewell address.  He spoke of Europe, but his wisdom still applies today in our expanded global community -----

From George Washington's Farewell Address ----

Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government.

The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible.   Europe ...  must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns.

If we remain one people under an efficient government, the period is not far off when we may defy material injury from external annoyance; when we may take such an attitude as will cause the neutrality we may at any time resolve upon to be scrupulously respected; when belligerent nations, under the impossibility of making acquisitions upon us, will not lightly hazard the giving us provocation; when we may choose peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel.

Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor or caprice?

https://constitutioncenter.org/the-constitution/historic-document-library/detail/george-washington-farewell-address-1796

[berdie]

It was a much different world when Washington wrote that @Right_in_Virginia . If one reads the entire quote it's pretty easy to put it in context with the world we currently live in. Sure, it would be wonderful to just say "You guys fight it out and we'll just take care of us". Sadly, the world is too intertwined...and we are involved and to a degree dependent on the peace.

[MeganC]

This is tiresome excuse that keeps getting a lot of people killed.

It's past time for the US to cut the cord with Europe.  If they want to keep throwing wars, we don't have to keep accepting the invitations----- in fact, Europe just might stop throwing these parties if the had to pay the full price for the catering.

More than enough American blood, treasure and time has been spent over this continent of inbred warmongers.  Let's refocus on strengthening our own nation and the budding democracy and capitalism breaking out in our own neighborhood.  The US, and the world, will be safer for it.

This shows stunning ignorance not only of Ukrainian history, but of our role since 2014 in actively fomenting this current shi#thow.

So we don't do anything about Russia and we don't do anything about China. We'll just sit back and wait for them to attack us first.

That's after they've conquered Europe and conquered Asia. 

With apologies to Martin Niemöller:

First they came for the Georgians, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Georgian.

Then they came for the Ukrainians, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Ukrainian.

Then they came for the Europeans, and I did not speak out—because I was not a European.

Then they came for America—and there was no one left to speak for America.

[Right_in_Virginia]

It was a much different world when Washington wrote that @Right_in_Virginia .

You sure bet it was ---- there was no multi-billion dollar military-industrial complex calling the shots --- just God-given common sense @berdie

We need to get back to that while we still can.  America First.

[kevindavis007]

@berdie

IMO, isolationism is not the same as America First --- America First is not about no involvement in foreign affairs, but involvement only when everything, from the money, to the weapons, to the engagement, to US prestige are used in the economic and national security best interests of the United States.   

Rand and Ron Paul have always had the courage to buck the military-industrial complex and return our attention to Washington's advice and warning. I think they're each a bright light in foreign affairs. 

The following is from Washington's farewell address.  He spoke of Europe, but his wisdom still applies today in our expanded global community -----

@Right_in_Virginia


Yes, the isolation and American First movements go hand in hand..


Washington was prudent during his presidency, but times have changed, and so have the circumstances. We now live in a more complex world than Washington's era. Also, since when are farewell addresses considered policy?


"We in America have learned bitter lessons from two world wars: It is better to be here ready to protect the peace, than to take blind shelter across the sea, rushing to respond only after freedom is lost. We've learned that isolationism never was and never will be an acceptable response to tyrannical governments with an expansionist intent" -- Ronald Reagan

[kevindavis007]

You sure bet it was ---- there was no multi-billion dollar military-industrial complex calling the shots --- just God-given common sense @berdie

We need to get back to that while we still can.  America First.

@Right_in_Virginia

Sorry Isolationistism failed in the 1930s and the 1940s and it will fail big time in today's world. Also, you are a member of Code Pink? You sure sound like you are a member of the group.

[MeganC]

You sure bet it was ---- there was no multi-billion dollar military-industrial complex calling the shots --- just God-given common sense @berdie

We need to get back to that while we still can.  America First.

Nonsense. Washington thought the US should be a nation of gentlemen farmers and engineers. He could not have foreseen that just a decade or so after he left office that industrialization would commence.

It changed everything.

And even in his time there was a military industrial complex but it was in Europe. It produced millions of guns, thousands of ships, and hundreds of thousands of artillery pieces.

The European military industrial complex refused to recognize American sovereignty and thus the USA engaged in the War of 1812 which some refer to as America's Second War of Independence.

After that we maintained a standing army and a standing navy...both things that Washington argued against. And why? Because we might ignore the world but that didn't mean they'd ignore us.

It was a wise thing that wise men rejected Washington's ideas against a standing military. In the 1830's the British contemplated war against the US in order to seize the forests of Maine which they needed for white pine trees which were critical for the Royal Navy. Fortifications along the US Atlantic seaboard deterred the British and they paid for what they originally wanted to steal.

Washington was a great man. But it is a mistake to worship him as a deity. He was no such thing.

He was fallible and his ideas were of his time and in time he was proven wrong about many things.

[Kamaji]

@Right_in_Virginia


Yes, the isolation and American First movements go hand in hand..


Washington was prudent during his presidency, but times have changed, and so have the circumstances. We now live in a more complex world than Washington's era. Also, since when are farewell addresses considered policy?


"We in America have learned bitter lessons from two world wars: It is better to be here ready to protect the peace, than to take blind shelter across the sea, rushing to respond only after freedom is lost. We've learned that isolationism never was and never will be an acceptable response to tyrannical governments with an expansionist intent" -- Ronald Reagan

Washington's statements made sense in context - a brand-new country that had few resources or people relative to the other countries moving in the international scene.  That's no longer the case, and hasn't been since the First World War.

[kevindavis007]

I had no idea you were in it. 

If you choose to go, I think the Party will be okay.   

@Right_in_Virginia


Not really. Besides, I want the party of Reagan, Lincoln, Ike, Teddy R, Bush I, Bush II, Grant, and others.. Not this monstrosity...

[DB]

We are not an isolated island. The world was very large place when our country was founded, major destruction is now only potentially hours away these days. You adapt or die.

[kevindavis007]

We are not an isolated island. The world was very large place when our country was founded, major destruction is now only potentially hours away these days. You adapt or die.

@DB


WWII was the last war that the oceans saved our butts from getting bombed big time.  As you have said, major destruction is now only potentially hours away. No ocean or wall is going to stop it.

[MeganC]

Washington's statements made sense in context - a brand-new country that had few resources or people relative to the other countries moving in the international scene.  That's no longer the case, and hasn't been since the First World War.

It wasn't the case during our Civil War when Britain and France sided with the Confederacy. Our one decent friend at the time was, believe it or not, Russia. It's why after the war ended and when Russia needed cash that they sold Alaska to us and not Britain (who wanted it as a province).

Later on the Spanish American War had a follow on effect where in 1900 Germany considered invading New York City and holding it hostage in order to force the US to cede the former Spanish territories to Germany*. <<<<< This was the big reason why Wilson saw the infamous Zimmerman cable as a threat by Germany against the US and why we came into that war supporting the Allies.

* Footnote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1901_(novel)

The plot is based on an actual diplomatic crisis that nearly brought the United States and the German Empire into war during the early 20th century. Conroy was inspired by the publication of the actual German invasion plans.

[Right_in_Virginia]

Washington's statements made sense in context - a brand-new country that had few resources or people relative to the other countries moving in the international scene.  That's no longer the case, and hasn't been since the First World War.

The only thing that has changed is the power of the military-industrial complex and the craven need for constant war.  The principle of choosing peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel applies as strongly, if not more so, today as in Washington's day.

I'm still hoping someone can explain any of this to me:

* Why is embracing, participting in and financing a hub of global corruption masquerading as a country and led by a dictator in our best interest?

* Why did the West, led by the US, insert itself in 2014 ---- sparking a color revolution, escalating a civil war and interfering in Ukraine's elections? 
   What US interests did this serve?

* Why does the West want to expand NATO?  What US national security interest is served by goading Russia to escalate hostilities?

* Why does the US not allow Europe to police itself?  What US interest does our incessant interference serve?

[Right_in_Virginia]

We are not an isolated island.

No one, least of all me, is saying we are.  But is it truly isolationist to ask more than "how high" when Europe tells us to jump into another chapter of their never-ending wars?

[MeganC]

The only thing that has changed is the power of the military-industrial complex and the craven need for constant war.  The principle of choosing peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel applies as strongly, if not more so, today as in Washington's day.

I'm still hoping someone can explain any of this to me:

* Why is embracing, participting in and financing a hub of global corruption masquerading as a country and led by a dictator in our best interest?

* Why did the West, led by the US, insert itself in 2014 ---- sparking a color revolution, escalating a civil war and interfering in Ukraine's elections? 
   What US interests did this serve?

* Why does the West want to expand NATO?  What US national security interest is served by goading Russia to escalate hostilities?

* Why does the US not allow Europe to police itself?  What US interest does our incessant interference serve?

Numerous people have explained their position to you and in response you keep parroting the same Russian talking points you started with.

Also, Ukraine is a real country that is willing to kill a boatload of Russians in order to secure their freedom.

In many regards what we are witnessing is Ukraine's war for independence. At the end of this they will be Ukrainian because they killed, bled, and sacrificed for the right to be called Ukrainian.

Russia is right now bashing itself to death on a rock called Ukraine.

I hope that America and NATO continue to urge them on in that direction.

[Right_in_Virginia]

Numerous people have explained their position to you and in response you keep parroting the same Russian talking points you started with.

Also, Ukraine is a real country that is willing to kill a boatload of Russians in order to secure their freedom.

In many regards what we are witnessing is Ukraine's war for independence. At the end of this they will be Ukrainian because they killed, bled, and sacrificed for the right to be called Ukrainian.

Russia is right now bashing itself to death on a rock called Ukraine.

I hope that America and NATO continue to urge them on in that direction.

@MeganC  I'm weary of reading the Biden administration's PR talking points --- even when repeated by you. And I am discouraged that you're betting our future on Joe Biden and his team being right on foreign policy for the first time in their political history.

If you'd like to discuss the history of Ukraine, Crimea and the Donbas in particular, what happened in 2014 that set the stage for this sh#tshow, why Ukraine's global corruption matters and the difference between Stalinist Russia and Tzarist Russia (from 1547 - 1917) ----- then I'm your Briefer.

Otherwise, I'll see you around campus. 

Thanks.

[kevindavis007]

@MeganC  I'm weary of reading the Biden administration's PR talking points --- even when repeated by you. And I am discouraged that you're betting our future on Joe Biden and his team being right on foreign policy for the first time in their political history.

If you'd like to discuss the history of Ukraine, Crimea and the Donbas in particular, what happened in 2014 that set the stage for this sh#tshow, why Ukraine's global corruption matters and the difference between Stalinist Russia and Tzarist Russia (from 1547 - 1917) ----- then I'm your Briefer.

Otherwise, I'll see you around campus. 

Thanks.

Sorry, but Ukraine (which includes Crimera) is worth backing.  Invading a country because it is corrupt is laughable. I have a feeling that Russia is 10 tens more corrupt than Ukraine. Why do you MAGA folk prefer Russia (our ENEMY) or Ukraine (WHO IS OUR FRIEND!)?

[MeganC]

@MeganC  I'm weary of reading the Biden administration's PR talking points --- even when repeated by you. And I am discouraged that you're betting our future on Joe Biden and his team being right on foreign policy for the first time in their political history.

If you'd like to discuss the history of Ukraine, Crimea and the Donbas in particular, what happened in 2014 that set the stage for this sh#tshow, why Ukraine's global corruption matters and the difference between Stalinist Russia and Tzarist Russia (from 1547 - 1917) ----- then I'm your Briefer.

Otherwise, I'll see you around campus. 

Thanks.

Okay, do not, and I mean do not accuse me of supporting Biden.

 

[libertybele]

@MeganC  I'm weary of reading the Biden administration's PR talking points --- even when repeated by you. And I am discouraged that you're betting our future on Joe Biden and his team being right on foreign policy for the first time in their political history.

If you'd like to discuss the history of Ukraine, Crimea and the Donbas in particular, what happened in 2014 that set the stage for this sh#tshow, why Ukraine's global corruption matters and the difference between Stalinist Russia and Tzarist Russia (from 1547 - 1917) ----- then I'm your Briefer.

Otherwise, I'll see you around campus. 

Thanks.

@Right_in_Virginia I believe this is one issue that we pretty much agree on though certainly you are much more knowledgeable on this subject than I.  My understanding and belief is that Ukraine is not innocent and absolutely corrupt as is Biden.

[MeganC]

@Right_in_Virginia I believe this is one issue that we pretty much agree on though certainly you are much more knowledgeable on this subject than I.  My understanding and belief is that Ukraine is not innocent and absolutely corrupt as is Biden.

Tell me, how does Ukrainian, Georgian, or Moldovan 'corruption' justify the Russian invasions and occupations of Ukraine, Georgia, and Moldova?

[DB]

Tell me, how does Ukrainian, Georgian, or Moldovan 'corruption' justify the Russian invasions and occupations of Ukraine, Georgia, and Moldova?

She'll just make shit up like she always does. She's impervious to facts.

[libertybele]

She'll just make shit up like she always does. She's impervious to facts.

Impervious to facts and make stuff up @DB??? Really?

As a rule I generally always back up what I say (fact wise, not opinion wise) with several links. 

Somewhere in the midst of all the posts about Ukraine I've provided some history.

The current conflict was not escalated by Putin until Biden stated that he felt that Putin was going to strike -- keep in mind that Joe was giving Z money long before the escalation.

So, how many more BILLIONS of U.S. dollars and NATO dollars is it going to take for Ukraine to win against Russia?  There has been conflict between Russia and Ukraine for decades.

From 1922 until 1991, Ukraine was the informal name of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic within the Soviet Union (annexed by Germany as Reichskommissariat Ukraine during 1941–1944).


Most of Ukraine fell to Russian rule in the 18th century. In the aftermath of World War I and the Russian Revolution of 1917, most of the Ukrainian region became a republic of the Soviet Union, though parts of western Ukraine were divided between Poland, Romania, and Czechoslovakia.

https://www.britannica.com/summary/Ukraine

https://www.britannica.com/summary/Crimean-War

[DB]

Impervious to facts and make stuff up @DB??? Really?

As a rule I generally always back up what I say (fact wise, not opinion wise) with several links.  P

Not you. RiV.

[MeganC]

As a rule I generally always back up what I say (fact wise, not opinion wise) with several links.  P

Cool. Then tell me, how does Ukrainian, Georgian, or Moldovan 'corruption' justify the Russian invasions and occupations of Ukraine, Georgia, and Moldova?