Author Topic: Biden to send thousands of cluster bombs to Ukraine despite them being against US law and banned in  (Read 4470 times)

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Online libertybele

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Thanks for that reply @Timber Rattler

Due to poor health I have missed out on the war up until a couple of months ago. So I really don't know what is happening. The detailed posts here give me a better idea than the news and I appreciate that.

They say this is a "new" $800 million aid package.Does that come out of the recentl $6.2 billion in found money or does it add to that?

Also, Biden saying we, the Ukes, or both are running out of ammo is completely irresponsible.

@bigheadfred  As of May, 2023, the U.S. has spent over $75 Billion supporting Ukraine.

Here is a chart on what the U.S. has spent. I get ridiculed because I believe our aid should have stopped billions of dollars ago because it isn't our war and the West has done a nice job of igniting this recent escalation.  Just my opinion and I'm sure that the flaming arrows will soon be heading my way.

https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-aid-has-us-sent-ukraine-here-are-six-charts
« Last Edit: July 09, 2023, 10:05:33 pm by libertybele »
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Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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I had assumed that typical HE rounds were most effective against entrenched infantry.  But then I am no artillery expert.  I yield to your superior knowledge.

First, here's an absolutely fantastic article from last September by a former U.S. army artillery officer advocating we send DPICM rounds to Ukraine, and explaining why they are so valuable.  He's dead-on, and what he's saying would not be the least bit controversial among artillery professionals.  They may indeed be a game-changer in an artillery-heavy war like this one.  And that's not an exaggeration.  I think a lot of people who don't understand how devastating those rounds are underestimate their impact.  They're not glamorous, but they are incredibly effective. 

https://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/give-ukraine-right-artillery-ammo-dpicm

To answer your point, traditional HE rounds with a point-detonating ("PD) fuze are very ineffective against troops in trenches, basically requiring a direct hit.   Rounds to which a variable-time ("VT") fuze that causes them to explode a certain distance above the ground (usually between 20-30 feet) are perhaps 3 times more effective because the angle of the burst allows some fragments to enter trenches 20-30 meters out from the point on the ground over which the fuze detonates.  That's just a matter of screwing a different fuze on the round prior to firing.  However, we don't have nearly as many VT fuzes as we have HE rounds, and my guess is that we stopped sending VT fuzes to Ukraine a long time ago.  So, they've likely been using just straight point detonating.

DPICM rounds, though, contain either 72 or 88 bomblets (the version with 72 bomblets is newer, with fewer duds), each essentially the equivalent of a grenade, and they'll spread out over about a 150 meter radius.  A single 6 gun battery firing just one round puts 432 bomblets in the impact area.  Ouch.  They are many times more effective even than VT. 

Important to note also that DPICM those were our default rounds.  They're force-multipliers that mean you can transport the same combat power in far fewer rounds.  So that's less wear and tear on the tubes, far fewer guns are required, and you can deliver a heavy combat punch more more quickly and then displace, making you much less vulnerable to counter-battery fire. 

The only non-DPICM rounds my battery fired in the Gulf War were long-range rocket assisted rounds that don't come in a DPICM version.  We didn't fire a single point-denoting or VT HE round the entire war -- DPICM are that much more effective. They are/were our standard round, and the majority of the ammunition we produced.  That also means that because we haven't been sending them, we have millions still in reserve.  So even if they weren't far superior to HE rounds, they're sort of all we have left to spare. 

To give a quick "war-story", my 8-gun battery got a fire mission targeting an Iraqi infantry battalion in the open.  Roughly 400-500 troops, and I directed DPICM.  We fired just two volleys (16 rounds, 1408 submunitions), and were told to "cease fire".  Mass hands-up surrender.  Now, that was in the desert which is going to maximize effectiveness against troops in the open.  Still, the grunts I talk to later said it was like the entire ground for hundreds of meters just exploded.  They were kind of in awe of it.  So the damn rounds are definitely effective.

Quote
If the rounds are more effective, then just send them.  Don't make some big announcement about it (followed by two more at later dates) before getting around to actually supplying them to Ukraine.

Well, a legal waiver by the President was required to export them, so there really wasn't a way to keep it quiet.  It's been a rather hotly debated topic almost since the war began for people who follow such things, and there was no way the media or opponents of sending them would have kept it quiet.  Better to do it openly rather than try to sneak it through and have it exposed anyway.   However, Biden did screw-up big time by saying publicly that our stockpiles of non-DPICM ammunition were "low".

ETA:I realize in rereading this post that it sounds rather over-the-top and geeky, but hey, it isn't very often that acquired knowledge of artillery rounds has much relevance to any discussion anyway.  lol.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2023, 11:43:09 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline Hoodat

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@bigheadfred  As of May, 2023, the U.S. has spent over $75 Billion supporting Ukraine.

The US has definitely spent over $75 billion.  But only a fraction of that went towards direct military support for Ukraine.
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Online mountaineer

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But only a fraction of that went towards direct military support for Ukraine.
So what? It's still our (taxpayers') money, spent on a war that isn't ours.
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Offline Kamaji

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So what? It's still our (taxpayers') money, spent on a war that isn't ours.

That's a matter of policy, and it is arguable.

Offline Timber Rattler

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...spent on a war that isn't ours.

I respectfully disagree with that...Putin was NOT going to stop after taking Ukraine back...he wants ALL of the former Soviet states and territories back, including Finland, Sweden and Alaska.  He's said so in the various essays he's published over the years but few bother to read, just like Hitler's Mein Kampf.

1938 is the lesson, and not 2003.
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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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I respectfully disagree with that...Putin was NOT going to stop after taking Ukraine back...he wants ALL of the former Soviet states and territories back, including Finland, Sweden and Alaska.  He's said so in the various essays he's published over the years but few bother to read, just like Hitler's Mein Kampf.

1938 is the lesson, and not 2003.

The other issue is that if Ukraine falls, we'd then be stuck with a much greater NATO commitment because the potential threat would be greater.  That's more troops, more of a commitment, etc..  On the flip side, if the Russian invasion fails, the body blow to Russian military capabilities would make the Europeans much more able to defend themselves.  Just like the fall of the Warsaw Pact and Soviet Union enables us to dramatically cut back on our NATO commitments, a failed Russian invasion would do the same.

Offline Kamaji

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The other issue is that if Ukraine falls, we'd then be stuck with a much greater NATO commitment because the potential threat would be greater.  That's more troops, more of a commitment, etc..  On the flip side, if the Russian invasion fails, the body blow to Russian military capabilities would make the Europeans much more able to defend themselves.  Just like the fall of the Warsaw Pact and Soviet Union enables us to dramatically cut back on our NATO commitments, a failed Russian invasion would do the same.

:thumbsup:

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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The irony is that while NATO gets mercilessly mocked as not being in our interests, the only time Article 5 was ever invoked by a member requesting military assistance was by us, after 9/11.

Offline Hoodat

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So what? It's still our (taxpayers') money, spent on a war that isn't ours.

I respect your position, @mountaineer .  But while I do not agree with the isolationist stance, I believe this war could be won a lot quicker and for a lot less money than the current Washington regime is doing.  They are not supporting Ukraine because they think it is the right thing to do.  They are supporting Ukraine because they are using it to divert money to friends and family.  And they plan to drag this out as long as they can.

My position has been to end this war as quickly as possible with a decisive Ukraine victory.  Or better yet, put up a stronger foreign policy that would have dissuaded Russia from invading in the first place.  But in the end, we should take home as many lessons as we can from this.  It could save us wasteful spending in the future on systems and strategies that are being proven obsolete.
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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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I respect your position, @mountaineer .  But while I do not agree with the isolationist stance, I believe this war could be won a lot quicker and for a lot less money than the current Washington regime is doing.  They are not supporting Ukraine because they think it is the right thing to do.  They are supporting Ukraine because they are using it to divert money to friends and family.  And they plan to drag this out as long as they can.

My position has been to end this war as quickly as possible with a decisive Ukraine victory.

I don't think that is an easy thing to do.  For all its weaknesses, Russia is still a nuclear armed nation with 150 million people and one of the largest militaries in the world.  As degraded as it is, it still takes a whole lot of effort to push dug-in troops off ground if they are determined to resist.  The biggest advantage they have is air power.  That's really the thing that is keeping them in this war, and that's not something that can be easily defeated absent direct U.S./NATO intervention.  I don't think anyone believed the war would last this long, and if they knew it would, they might have done more about trying to get the Ukrainians better aircraft, and to train more pilots.  But that literally takes years.

The other facts is there is a whole lot of pushback from people in the U.S. who don't want to support Ukraine period, and others who are just kind of pacifistic.  So, there have been political limits on what we've been able to send to the Ukrainians.  Even now, with the DPICM artillery rounds, there is a ton of pushback.

I detest the Bidens, but I don't believe even Biden himself wants to prolong that war.  A Ukrainianvictory would be such a huge political coup that it might even swing the election, so I think they'd do that if they could.  It's just difficult given the military and political constraints.

Offline Hoodat

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I detest the Bidens, but I don't believe even Biden himself wants to prolong that war.

I believe he does because he has practically said so.  His stated goal is to depose Putin.  And he has said that the possibility of that grows stronger as the war drags on.

Ukraine's terms are nothing less than a total withdrawal of Russian troops from Ukraine soil.  I have yet to hear Joe Biden echo those terms.
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Offline Timber Rattler

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respect your position, @mountaineer
My position has been to end this war as quickly as possible with a decisive Ukraine victory.  Or better yet, put up a stronger foreign policy that would have dissuaded Russia from invading in the first place.  But in the end, we should take home as many lessons as we can from this.  It could save us wasteful spending in the future on systems and strategies that are being proven obsolete.

 :amen:
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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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I believe he does because he has practically said so.  His stated goal is to depose Putin.
And he has said that the possibility of that grows stronger as the war drags on.

Biden is an idiot. I believe that statement was intended to be more of a prediction as to what it would take for the war to end, rather than an independent goal.

A wide variety of people have predicted that Putin will never accept a failed invasion.  He will keep throwing men and material into that war until either Russia was victorious, or he was deposed.  So the idea was that if you wanted the war to end with Ukraine preserving itself, Putin had to go.

I can see the logic behind that statement, and can certainly see the value in implicitly encouraging other Russians to get rid of Putin.

But in terms of removal of Putin being a demand, I think that's not correct. If Putin would decide tomorrow that the war should end, and withdraw his troops from Ukraine, I don't think anybody in the world would say we should continue arming the Ukrainian so that they could depose Putin.   We'd very happily accept the end of the war and preservation of Ukraine as a victory.  I'd be shocked if that message hasn't been communicated to Putin In multiple ways.

Quote
Ukraine's terms are nothing less than a total withdrawal of Russian troops from Ukraine soil.  I have yet to hear Joe Biden echo those terms.

And that's to leave open the possibility of a negotiated settlement. For example, Zelensky's demands requires a Russian withdrawal from Crimea and all of the Donbass.  That's probably unrealistic. 

If Putin were willing to agree to something approaching the status quo ante, with Russia retaining some rights in the Crimea and parts of the Donbass, but abandoning everything else, that could potentially form the basis of a ceasefire.  So that's why we're not affirmatively endorsing the Ukrainian demand for what amounts to total victory.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2023, 12:29:49 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline Kamaji

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Biden is an idiot. I believe that statement was intended to be more of a prediction as to what it would take for the war to end, rather than an independent goal.

A wide variety of people have predicted that Putin will never accept a failed invasion.  He will keep throwing men and material into that war until either Russia was victorious, or he was deposed.  So the idea was that if you wanted the war to end with Ukraine preserving itself, Putin had to go.

I can see the logic behind that statement, and can certainly see the value in implicitly encouraging other Russians to get rid of Putin.

But in terms of removal of Putin being a demand, I think that's not correct. If Putin would decide tomorrow that the war should end, and withdraw his troops from Ukraine, I don't think anybody in the world would say we should continue arming the Ukrainian so that they could depose Putin.   We'd very happily accept the end of the war and preservation of Ukraine as a victory.  I'd be shocked if that message hasn't been communicated to Putin In multiple ways.

:thumbsup:

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Michael Tracey
@mtracey

Cluster munitions are just a particularly crude sub-type of what the Biden Administration has been pouring into Ukraine for months upon months now: a nonstop avalanche of munitions, cluster or non-cluster, expressly for the purpose of enabling warfare rather than curtailing it

8:44 PM · Jul 8, 2023

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Michael Tracey
@mtracey

Cluster munitions are just a particularly crude sub-type of what the Biden Administration has been pouring into Ukraine for months upon months now: a nonstop avalanche of munitions, cluster or non-cluster, expressly for the purpose of enabling warfare rather than curtailing it

8:44 PM · Jul 8, 2023

That guy has no idea what he is talking about.  As if a M864 is somehow "more crude" than a PF HE round.  Moron.

As both you and Mr. Tracey well know, stopping the shipment of ammunition to Ukraine won't curtail the war.  It will just ensure that a lot more Ukrainians rather than Russians die.

I guess that's your "mission accomplished" anyway though....

Oh, and before you start with the "I don't want Russia to win, I just want the fighting to stop" line, why don't you remind us of the last thing you posted about applying pressure for peace to Russia?
« Last Edit: July 10, 2023, 03:00:09 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline Timber Rattler

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Michael Tracey
@mtracey

Cluster munitions are just a particularly crude sub-type of what the Biden Administration has been pouring into Ukraine for months upon months now: a nonstop avalanche of munitions, cluster or non-cluster, expressly for the purpose of enabling warfare rather than curtailing it

8:44 PM · Jul 8, 2023

This guy is clueless.
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Offline Timber Rattler

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Wagner boss Yevgeny Prigozhin met Russia's Vladimir Putin after mutiny

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66154909

Russian President Vladimir Putin met mercenary leader Yevgeny Prigozhin after the failed Wagner group mutiny last month, the Kremlin says.

Prigozhin, who heads the mercenary group, was among 35 Wagner commanders invited to the meeting in Moscow, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov added.

He said that President Putin had given an "assessment" of the Ukraine war effort and the mutiny.

The rebellion, launched on 23 June, lasted only 24 hours.

Under a deal to end the mutiny, which saw Wagner troops seize a city and march on Moscow, charges against Prigozhin were dropped and he was offered a move to Belarus.

There had been very public infighting between Wagner and Russia's ministry of defence over the conduct of the war. Prigozhin had repeatedly accused the ministry of failing to supply his group with ammunition.

But on Monday, Mr Peskov said the Wagner chief was among the commanders who were invited to the Kremlin five days after the mutiny collapsed.

"The president gave an assessment of the company's actions on the front," Mr Peskov is quoted as saying by Interfax news agency.

"He also gave assessment to the 24 June events. Putin listened to the commanders' explanations and suggested variants of their future employment and their future use in combat."

According to the spokesman, Prigozhin told Mr Putin that Wagner unconditionally supported him.

EXCERPT
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Offline PeteS in CA

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I respectfully disagree with that...Putin was NOT going to stop after taking Ukraine back...he wants ALL of the former Soviet states and territories back, including Finland, Sweden and Alaska.  He's said so in the various essays he's published over the years but few bother to read, just like Hitler's Mein Kampf.

1938 is the lesson, and not 2003.

US interests are not limited to US territory and territorial waters. That became obvious in the 1800s, to those willing to see it. More to the point, those willing to see Putin's pattern of invasions - Georgia, invading and biting off Crimea, setting up and funding proxy groups in the Donbas, setting up and funding proxy groups in Moldova, invading Ukraine - realize that Putin is trying to rebuild the Czarist-Stalinist empire. "Today" it's Ukraine; "tomorrow", if Putin is not stopped, it'll be Moldova and/or one of the Balkan nations, and beyond that, Finland or Poland or ... .

Whether Russian is led by the aging Putin or by one of the aggressive ultra-Slavic-Nationalists behind him, it is very much in the US' (and many other nations') interests that Putin be stopped cold, now, and that Crimea be restored to Ukraine. Russia isn't the only threat to US interests - I shouldn't have to say this, but to preempt a straw man argument ... - just the one presently invading and creating proxy groups in other countries.
If, as anti-Covid-vaxxers claim, https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2021/robert-f-kennedy-jr-said-the-covid-19-vaccine-is-the-deadliest-vaccine-ever-made-thats-not-true/ , https://gospelnewsnetwork.org/2021/11/23/covid-shots-are-the-deadliest-vaccines-in-medical-history/ , The Vaccine is deadly, where in the US have Pfizer and Moderna hidden the millions of bodies of those who died of "vaccine injury"? Is reality a Big Pharma Shill?

Millions now living should have died. Anti-Covid-Vaxxer ghouls hardest hit.

Offline Kamaji

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US interests are not limited to US territory and territorial waters. That became obvious in the 1800s, to those willing to see it. More to the point, those willing to see Putin's pattern of invasions - Georgia, invading and biting off Crimea, setting up and funding proxy groups in the Donbas, setting up and funding proxy groups in Moldova, invading Ukraine - realize that Putin is trying to rebuild the Czarist-Stalinist empire. "Today" it's Ukraine; "tomorrow", if Putin is not stopped, it'll be Moldova and/or one of the Balkan nations, and beyond that, Finland or Poland or ... .

Whether Russian is led by the aging Putin or by one of the aggressive ultra-Slavic-Nationalists behind him, it is very much in the US' (and many other nations') interests that Putin be stopped cold, now, and that Crimea be restored to Ukraine. Russia isn't the only threat to US interests - I shouldn't have to say this, but to preempt a straw man argument ... - just the one presently invading and creating proxy groups in other countries.

:thumbsup:

Offline Hoodat

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And that's to leave open the possibility of a negotiated settlement. For example, Zelensky's demands requires a Russian withdrawal from Crimea and all of the Donbass.  That's probably unrealistic.

They told Ho Chi Minh the same thing.
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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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As both you and Mr. Tracey well know, stopping the shipment of ammunition to Ukraine won't curtail the war.  It will just ensure that a lot more Ukrainians rather than Russians die.

I guess that's your "mission accomplished" anyway though....

Oh, and before you start with the "I don't want Russia to win, I just want the fighting to stop" line, why don't you remind us of the last thing you posted about applying pressure for peace to Russia?

You keep missing the essential and fundamental point:  This isn't our border conflict ---- it's Europe's.  Get this point right, the rest will follow and your Biden talking points will no longer be necessary.

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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You keep missing the essential and fundamental point:  This isn't our border conflict ---- it's Europe's.  Get this point right, the rest will follow and your Biden talking points will no longer be necessary.

And as sure as the sun rises in east, you completely ignore the question of how you guys want to pressure Russia to make peace.

It is always - always - about pressuring Ukraine.

My guess as to why is just because that's just following Trump, and Trump favors Russia because Putin flattered him.  And because he sees Ukraine as being just a pawn of the Biden's.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2023, 09:19:13 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Online libertybele

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You keep missing the essential and fundamental point:  This isn't our border conflict ---- it's Europe's.  Get this point right, the rest will follow and your Biden talking points will no longer be necessary.

Exactly and this isn't our war!   Let's take a couple of billion that we readily give to Ukraine and secure our own darn border.
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