Author Topic: How To Defund The IRS? Top 10 Reasons For A National Sales Tax  (Read 1403 times)

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Offline Bigun

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Re: How To Defund The IRS? Top 10 Reasons For A National Sales Tax
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2023, 09:40:33 pm »
Why would everyone necessarily pay it?  One of the big problems with sales taxes is that there is evasion with under-the-table sales.  Every business has waste in its inventory, some more than others, and since a sales tax audit would only come in way after the fact, for a business that sells small fungible items (e.g., pens and pencils), it would be very difficult for the auditor to gainsay a claim that there was significant waste in the businesses' inventory.  The problem would be further exacerbated with illegals because they are already participating in grey markets to begin with, so they are even less likely to be paying sales tax than regular people.

Collection costs are not low, not when the entire lifecycle of the tax period is taken into account.  Unless one is willing to operate on blind faith, there will still be significant costs for auditing, and there will still be significant costs for collections to go after vendors who, for one reason or another (typically because they're having a cash crunch) do not remit the collected sales tax.

Pyramiding sales tax liabilities can also destroy a business in a way that unpaid corporate income tax cannot, generally because sales taxes are classified as so-called "trust fund taxes" which can (a) be assessed outside of a corporate entity against the responsible persons (which can include the company accountant or return preparer), and (b) generally cannot be discharged in bankruptcy.

Finally, it would skew purchases to favor low-taxed items over high-taxed items, and the only real beneficiaries of the savings would be those in the higher income brackets, because those of us at the lower end would still be spending the bulk of our income on the necessities of life.

I don't know what sales tax you are talking about but I can tell you for sure it isn't Texas because we don't have those kinds of problems here on any scale. 

We do currently have a very large budget surplus.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

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Offline Bigun

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Re: How To Defund The IRS? Top 10 Reasons For A National Sales Tax
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2023, 09:46:20 pm »
Quote
There is massive tax evasion under the income tax too...

That is certainly true but most of the big players don't have to evade income taxes. They just pay people to create whatever loophole they need and go merrily on their way.  That is the cottage industry of the Fedgov. and how the armies of K Street earn their massive $$$.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2023, 09:52:57 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline roamer_1

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Re: How To Defund The IRS? Top 10 Reasons For A National Sales Tax
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2023, 09:49:45 pm »
But, running with the concept, exclude food, exclude medical services, devices, and prescriptions, exclude primary housing, and exclude energy for personal use.

Tax the rest.

And amend the Constitution that no tax be placed on income.

That's right where I am... with the exception of 'retail POS only', otherwise the costs get hidden in material cost of goods instead of the material cost of labor, and we never really know the full cost we are paying. Most of it is hidden in the cost of manufacturing and shipping the goods. Retail POS only shakes business all the way loose, And puts ALL the cost of government below the total line, for every citizen to see, every time they pay for goods.

Offline berdie

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Re: How To Defund The IRS? Top 10 Reasons For A National Sales Tax
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2023, 09:56:25 pm »
I don't know what sales tax you are talking about but I can tell you for sure it isn't Texas because we don't have those kinds of problems here on any scale. 

We do currently have a very large budget surplus.



Exactly! I'm sure there are ways to circumvent sales tax, but most people don't have the knowledge or the means to do so. And truthfully, if a person evades sales tax or the remittances of said taxes...they would receive a harsher sentence than a murderer, lol.

Offline Kamaji

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Re: How To Defund The IRS? Top 10 Reasons For A National Sales Tax
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2023, 10:34:21 pm »
I have always been, and still am, a big proponent of either a consumption or flat tax.

I lean toward consumption. Everybody has some skin in the game. (I am cutting my own throat, lol).

Of course tax accountants would definitely take a hit, lol.


With all due respect, tax accountants wouldn't take a hit at all if there were a national retail sales tax.  Neither would tax lawyers.

Tax audits would still exist, tax collection cases would still exist (and get even worse).

Offline Kamaji

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Re: How To Defund The IRS? Top 10 Reasons For A National Sales Tax
« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2023, 10:35:26 pm »
I don't know what sales tax you are talking about but I can tell you for sure it isn't Texas because we don't have those kinds of problems here on any scale. 

We do currently have a very large budget surplus.


Actually, you do have those problems in Texas, you just aren't aware of them.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: How To Defund The IRS? Top 10 Reasons For A National Sales Tax
« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2023, 10:38:19 pm »
Yet another really big advantage to a retail only flat tax it ties government income directly to the nations profitability. Uncle only makes money when we're making money... Which will make them work hard to get out of the way so their profits increase.

Offline berdie

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Re: How To Defund The IRS? Top 10 Reasons For A National Sales Tax
« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2023, 10:55:51 pm »
With all due respect, tax accountants wouldn't take a hit at all if there were a national retail sales tax.  Neither would tax lawyers.

Tax audits would still exist, tax collection cases would still exist (and get even worse).



Sorry, but I must respectfully disagree. Of course tax audits would still exist for the entities collecting those taxes. I went thru a state tax audit myself and it was hell.* But this would not open every individual to an audit. Once the tax is paid by the purchaser...it's over for them. That narrows the field. That, imho, would reduce the size of the IRS.

*If you've never taken a gander at the Tx sales tax laws...it will make your head spin. I would be absolutely against the feds doing some crazy like that.

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: How To Defund The IRS? Top 10 Reasons For A National Sales Tax
« Reply #33 on: June 02, 2023, 11:06:23 pm »
Why would everyone necessarily pay it?  One of the big problems with sales taxes is that there is evasion with under-the-table sales.  Every business has waste in its inventory, some more than others, and since a sales tax audit would only come in way after the fact, for a business that sells small fungible items (e.g., pens and pencils), it would be very difficult for the auditor to gainsay a claim that there was significant waste in the businesses' inventory.  The problem would be further exacerbated with illegals because they are already participating in grey markets to begin with, so they are even less likely to be paying sales tax than regular people.

Collection costs are not low, not when the entire lifecycle of the tax period is taken into account.  Unless one is willing to operate on blind faith, there will still be significant costs for auditing, and there will still be significant costs for collections to go after vendors who, for one reason or another (typically because they're having a cash crunch) do not remit the collected sales tax.

Pyramiding sales tax liabilities can also destroy a business in a way that unpaid corporate income tax cannot, generally because sales taxes are classified as so-called "trust fund taxes" which can (a) be assessed outside of a corporate entity against the responsible persons (which can include the company accountant or return preparer), and (b) generally cannot be discharged in bankruptcy.

Finally, it would skew purchases to favor low-taxed items over high-taxed items, and the only real beneficiaries of the savings would be those in the higher income brackets, because those of us at the lower end would still be spending the bulk of our income on the necessities of life.

Some good points. I do remember hearing that collection costs are relatively low with sales taxes, but I could be wrong. I'm searching for collection costs on google.

Offline Kamaji

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Re: How To Defund The IRS? Top 10 Reasons For A National Sales Tax
« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2023, 11:14:44 pm »
Yet another really big advantage to a retail only flat tax it ties government income directly to the nations profitability. Uncle only makes money when we're making money... Which will make them work hard to get out of the way so their profits increase.

Hardly.  If a company is making sales of taxable goods, it owes the sales tax on those goods, whether or not it ends up being otherwise profitable.

Offline Kamaji

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Re: How To Defund The IRS? Top 10 Reasons For A National Sales Tax
« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2023, 11:17:31 pm »


Sorry, but I must respectfully disagree. Of course tax audits would still exist for the entities collecting those taxes. I went thru a state tax audit myself and it was hell.* But this would not open every individual to an audit. Once the tax is paid by the purchaser...it's over for them. That narrows the field. That, imho, would reduce the size of the IRS.

*If you've never taken a gander at the Tx sales tax laws...it will make your head spin. I would be absolutely against the feds doing some crazy like that.

Actually, it's not.  States have what is called the compensating use tax, and that is a tax that is imposed directly on the consumer - the buyer - and not collected by the retailer.  Without an income tax, use tax assessments will become a much bigger issue.

Secondly, if you as the purchaser do not pay the sales tax that was supposed to be collected, you are still on the hook for the tax.  Most states simply go after the retailer because that's much easier than going after the consumer, but the consumer is supposed to be paying the tax.  If the sales tax is the only primary revenue source, you can bet bottom dollar audits of consumers will increase.

Thirdly, with the tax rate set at about 40% or so, every retailer will be subject to almost constant audit because of the inventive to evade payment of the tax.

Fourth, most states tax a number of services as well as retail goods, and that can be expected to increase.  All service providers of any sort will be required to collect sales tax.

Fifth, it will actually make it easier for auditors to take advantage of sellers and gouge them for taxes.  This happens already under state sales tax systems for the simple reason that most tax authorities are allowed to assess tax for multiple years based on a "statistical" sampling of the businesses' activities that, in practice, usually amounts to putting an auditor at the cash register for a few days to record all taxable sales, and then extrapolating the recorded sales to every day in the audit period, which is usually two to three years long.

I have personally seen this happen to some small retailers, and if they do not have massive amounts of totally accurate records to refute the tax department's extrapolations, the courts will uniformly support the tax departments and uphold the assessments.

There is a classic case in New York where the Tax Department put an auditor at the cash register for a little bodega that operated near one of the LIRR stations.  They put him there on a Thursday, which was his biggest sales day for cigarettes because everyone was coming off the trains and buying cigarettes on their way to the bar.  Thursday sales were actually about four or five times bigger than sales on any other day.  But that was irrelevant to the tax department and to the courts because the retailer had not kept complete and accurate records.  So he was taxed as if he had been making the same level of sales seven days a week, even though the sales the other six days were a small percentage of the Thursday sales.

And that doesn't just happen in New York.  The use of that sort of invalid statistical analysis is sanctioned in many states.  Furthermore, auditors have an incentive to overassess when they can get away with it, even in the vaunted State of Texas, as this article points out:  https://texastaxgroup.com/2023/02/03/inside-the-mind-of-a-texas-comptroller-sales-tax-auditor/

WADR, only a naive idiot thinks that a national retail sales tax is going to be a panacea.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2023, 11:26:02 pm by Kamaji »

Offline berdie

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Re: How To Defund The IRS? Top 10 Reasons For A National Sales Tax
« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2023, 11:17:33 pm »
Hardly.  If a company is making sales of taxable goods, it owes the sales tax on those goods, whether or not it ends up being otherwise profitable.


Sales tax is a pass thru.

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Re: How To Defund The IRS? Top 10 Reasons For A National Sales Tax
« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2023, 11:19:41 pm »
Yet another really big advantage to a retail only flat tax it ties government income directly to the nations profitability. Uncle only makes money when we're making money... Which will make them work hard to get out of the way so their profits increase.
The progressive tax scheme we already have does that... and fails.

In a recession, more people get pushed into the lower tax brackets, driving down tax revenues and driving up the deficit. Do our government leaders push more austerity during those times? Of course not.  They EXPAND the safety trampoline—er, "net."
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Offline Kamaji

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Re: How To Defund The IRS? Top 10 Reasons For A National Sales Tax
« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2023, 11:26:58 pm »

Sales tax is a pass thru.

Good night. happy77

:mauslaff:

Apparently you don't understand how taxes work.  so much so, that you shouldn't be trusted with voting on tax policy.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: How To Defund The IRS? Top 10 Reasons For A National Sales Tax
« Reply #39 on: June 02, 2023, 11:45:18 pm »
Hardly.  If a company is making sales of taxable goods, it owes the sales tax on those goods, whether or not it ends up being otherwise profitable.

Right. But when things are tight, folks don't buy.
The way it is now, things are tight, and folks still have to work.
And a good portion of why things are tight is because of government shenanigans.
They get their money anyway right now.
If they got their money out of retail, it would be in their interest to keep retail in a continual bloom.
And they would make less the more people they put out of work instead of more.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: How To Defund The IRS? Top 10 Reasons For A National Sales Tax
« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2023, 11:50:57 pm »
Hardly.  If a company is making sales of taxable goods, it owes the sales tax on those goods, whether or not it ends up being otherwise profitable.

IOW... OK, but incidental... Their nick is based off a percentage of the sale price - They ain't making hay in a fire sale.

Offline roamer_1

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Re: How To Defund The IRS? Top 10 Reasons For A National Sales Tax
« Reply #41 on: June 02, 2023, 11:56:11 pm »
The progressive tax scheme we already have does that... and fails.

In a recession, more people get pushed into the lower tax brackets, driving down tax revenues and driving up the deficit. Do our government leaders push more austerity during those times? Of course not.  They EXPAND the safety trampoline—er, "net."

Except the emphasis is different. Right now it is in Uncle Nanny's favor to grow the out-of-work. Because as long as there are enough working to pay the bill, they can charge a ton for the ones they are taking care of.

If their 'profits' are tied to retail, then it is in their interest to do everything they can to keep as many as they can working.

Offline berdie

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Re: How To Defund The IRS? Top 10 Reasons For A National Sales Tax
« Reply #42 on: June 03, 2023, 03:12:40 pm »
:mauslaff:

Apparently you don't understand how taxes work.  so much so, that you shouldn't be trusted with voting on tax policy.



Although it is possible we are talking about two different things...
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