Ukraine 4

[Smokin Joe]

Should FDR or Lincoln have not had their elections? Not so sure I agree there. Anyway, I think Zelensky would win handily.

Lincoln's election during the war was a shoo-in, considering the voting blocs that he lost were either in rebellion or militarily occupied (MD) by the Union. He did suspend Habeas Corpus, and among those rounded up and imprisoned was Francis Scott Key's grandson, ironically imprisoned in Ft. McHenry.

in 1860:
Jere's your gray area in 1864:

In FDR's case, despite the home front effort, the war was not on these shores (Hawaii was not a State, nor was Alaska), so there was little opportunity for some sort of shenanigans in areas where combat was actively taking place on the home front. Even C.O.s and other pacifists were generally viewed with suspicion (Desmond Doss broke that mold).

Is Ukraine supposed to depend on mail-in-ballots? How will those who left the country, voluntarily or otherwise, vote? Or will the vote be confined to  those who remain, outside of Russian occupied areas, (otherwise, how would you know a ballot was cast without duress and by the right person?)

Seriously, I think the analogy with Britain (which was subject to bombing, V1 and V2 strikes) is more apt.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Lincoln's election during the war was a shoo-in, considering the voting blocs that he lost were either in rebellion or militarily occupied (MD) by the Union. He did suspend Habeas Corpus, and among those rounded up and imprisoned was Francis Scott Key's grandson, ironically imprisoned in Ft. McHenry.

in 1860:
Jere's your gray area in 1864:

In FDR's case, despite the home front effort, the war was not on these shores (Hawaii was not a State, nor was Alaska), so there was little opportunity for some sort of shenanigans in areas where combat was actively taking place on the home front. Even C.O.s and other pacifists were generally viewed with suspicion (Desmond Doss broke that mold).

Is Ukraine supposed to depend on mail-in-ballots? How will those who left the country, voluntarily or otherwise, vote? Or will the vote be confined to  those who remain, outside of Russian occupied areas, (otherwise, how would you know a ballot was cast without duress and by the right person?)

Seriously, I think the analogy with Britain (which was subject to bombing, V1 and V2 strikes) is more apt.

Yeah… Lincoln actually did other like threatening to jail a ussc Justice and arresting an entire state legislature. He still had elections heh.

[berdie]

I'm just a basic voter. If bombs are being thrown around...it may make me think twice. Sooo, the Russian voters will be paid to vote. If there is, indeed, a constitutional ability to delay a vote in Ukraine I don't see a problem.

Outside of the Civil War we have been very blessed.

[Kamaji]

An election where Southern States (i.e. opposition States) were awarded zero electoral votes.  If elections were held in Ukraine, and only areas free of Russian troops were allowed to participate, Zelenskiy critics would be screaming that it shouldn't count since Ukrainians in occupied Donetsk, Luhansk, Zaporizhzhia, Kherson, and Crimea couldn't vote.

Yup.

[Smokin Joe]

Yeah… Lincoln actually did other like threatening to jail a ussc Justice and arresting an entire state legislature. He still had elections heh.

Yep. His election though, did not include the states which were most opposed. Lincoln got 4 (yep, four) votes in the county I grew up in in MD in 1860. Those folks were asked to leave.
The legislature is more thoroughly discussed here: https://msa.maryland.gov/msa/stagser/s1259/121/7590/html/0000.html  Frankly, that is a version sanitized by the victors in that conflict, but it hits the high points.
Maryland, technically not a state in rebellion, and therefore not covered by the Emancipation Proclamation, still had slaves at the end of the war (well, someone had to serve all those Yankee generals). MD was not 'freed' from the military occupation until it had adopted an entirely new Constitution (post bellum).

[Cyber Liberty]

Cool!  Now that we've solved the War Between the States, let's take a look at Ukraine....

[Smokin Joe]

Cool!  Now that we've solved the War Between the States, let's take a look at Ukraine....

We were discussing a prominent analog to the election question in Ukraine, and why it was inappropriate. Back to the land of Cyrillic text...

[240B]

[kevindavis007]

Legit question:

https://twitter.com/KentuckyGoddess/status/1706122563594670293

[PeteS in CA]

Cool!  Now that we've solved the War Between the States, let's take a look at Ukraine....

Maybe a Re-Fighting the War Between the States thread could be started in the General Discussion or History forum and the posts in this thread about that topic Merged into the Re-Fighting ... thread?

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Legit question:

https://twitter.com/KentuckyGoddess/status/1706122563594670293

Let the Chinese have California.

[Kamaji]

Legit question:

https://twitter.com/KentuckyGoddess/status/1706122563594670293

[Cyber Liberty]

Maybe a Re-Fighting the War Between the States thread could be started in the General Discussion or History forum and the posts in this thread about that topic Merged into the Re-Fighting ... thread?

Every time we did that it got really ugly, so I hope not.

[Kamaji]

The horror of Putin's war laid bare: Wounded Ukrainian soldiers are brutalised in counter-offensive to claw back captured Bakhmut from Russia - as barbaric invasion grinds on

Soldiers suffered life-changing injuries during a push for Bakhmut
The city was captured by occupying Russian forces in May
Ukraine is expending huge amounts of resources to take the key city back

By PERKIN AMALARAJ
25 September 2023

Ukraine's soldiers have been brutalised during a major counteroffensive to take back the key captured city of Bakhmut.

New photos show the life-changing injuries suffered by battalions tasked with taking back the city.

Wounded soldiers from the 10th Mountain Assault Bridage, known as the 'Edelveys', were seen barely patched up following treatment in the field, with many of the brigade's fighters still covered in the dirt from the counteroffensive push.

*  *  *

Source:  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12559379/The-horror-Putins-war-laid-bare-Wounded-Ukrainian-soldiers-brutalised-counter-offensive-claw-captured-Bakhmut-Russia-barbaric-invasion-grinds-on.html

[Kamaji]

Ukrainian troops 'break through Russian defenses in key battleground'

By CHRIS JEWERS
25 September 2023

Ukraine's forces have broken through Russian defenses in the key town of Verbove, according to Kyiv's general leading the country's counteroffensive. Oleksandr Tarnavskiy told US media that the advance was still underway, in the latest indication that Ukraine is making in-roads on the southern front. 'On the left flank (near the village of Verbove) we have a breakthrough, and we continue to advance further,' he told CNN in an interview released Friday.

Progress had been 'not as fast as it was expected - not like in the movies about the Second World War,' he added, but said it was key 'not to lose this initiative. And, well, not to lose it in practice, with actions.' The reported breakthrough came as Kyiv said that senior Russian navy commanders had been among dozens killed or wounded in a missile attack on Moscow's Black Sea Fleet headquarters in Crimea.

A Ukrainian military source told the BBC the attack on Sevastopol was carried out using Storm Shadow missiles, which are supplied by Britain and France . Ukraine's army said the strike had happened during 'a meeting of the Russian navy's leadership'. Kyiv's intelligence chief Kyrylo Budanov said the attack killed 'at least nine people', including generals, in comments to Voice of America. 'The details of the attack will be revealed as soon as possible and the result is dozens of dead and wounded occupants, including senior fleet commanders,' the Ukrainian army said.

*  *  *

Source:  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/galleries/article-12557849/Ukrainian-troops-break-Russian-defenses-key-battleground.html

[Elderberry]

Russian Black Sea fleet commander killed in Crimea, Ukraine claims

The Guardian by Pjotr Sauer 9/25/2023

Ukrainian military says attack that apparently killed Viktor Sokolov was timed to coincide with meeting of naval officials

Ukraine has claimed it killed Adm Viktor Sokolov, the commander of Russia’s Black Sea fleet, along with 33 other officers, in one of Kyiv’s boldest attacks yet on the occupied peninsula of Crimea.

The Ukrainian military said Friday’s attack on the headquarters of Russia’s Black Sea fleet in Sevastopol was timed to coincide with a meeting of naval officials.

“After the strike on the headquarters of the Russian Black Sea fleet, 34 officers died, including the commander of the Russian Black Sea fleet. Another 105 occupiers were wounded. The headquarters building cannot be restored,” the special forces said on the Telegram messaging app.

The Russian defence ministry has not yet commented on Ukraine’s claim. Moscow has previously confirmed Ukraine’s attack but said that one serviceman was missing as a result of the attack.

More: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/25/russian-black-sea-fleet-commander-killed-in-crimea-ukraine-claims

[PeteS in CA]

Either Ukraine got every-planet-in-the-solar-system-lined-up lucky, or Ukraine had rather exact information about the meeting location, time, and attendants. Two or three missiles hit the building, collapsing a large part of it. Losing 30-35 very senior officers at one time like this would be a significant blow to any navy, and not just at the fleet level.

[Smokin Joe]

Let the Chinese have California.

I was wondering who they were saving all those natural resources for.

[ScottinVA]

Let the Chinese have California.

Not all of California.  The north state is made up of good people who hate that POS gaggle of progs down in Sacramento.

[sneakypete]

Either Ukraine got every-planet-in-the-solar-system-lined-up lucky, or Ukraine had rather exact information about the meeting location, time, and attendants. Two or three missiles hit the building, collapsing a large part of it. Losing 30-35 very senior officers at one time like this would be a significant blow to any navy, and not just at the fleet level.

@PeteS in CA

AND.......,this is NOT the first time the Kremlin has lost VERY senior officers in missile/drone strikes.

Something tells me there are Soviet citizens working  with  the Ukrainians to see the Soviet military defeated,and the Soviet system overthrown.

[Hoodat]

Either Ukraine got every-planet-in-the-solar-system-lined-up lucky, or Ukraine had rather exact information about the meeting location, time, and attendants.

Seeing how Sevastopol is Ukrainian territory, it is not surprising they would know.

There is a photo somewhere of someone holding up a piece of paper saying "Крим – це Україна" (Crimea is Ukraine) with the HQ building burning in the background.  Will try to find it.

[Hoodat]

Russians tortured some Ukrainians to death, raped women aged 19-83, UN commission finds

Oksana Zhitnyuk  |  25.09.2023, 16:53

Russian soldiers tortured Ukrainians so brutally that it led to the death of some victims, and forced relatives to listen as they raped women, the head of the Independent International Commission of Inquiry, Erik Møse, stated at the UN Human Rights Council in Geneva, Reuters reports.

He noted that his team had collected additional evidence indicating that the use of torture by the Russian military in areas under their control was "widespread and systematic."

"In some cases, torture was inflicted with such brutality that it caused the death of the victim," he said.

In particular, Russian soldiers committed sexual violence against women aged 19 to 83 in the temporarily occupied parts of Kherson Oblast, the commission found.  .  .

https://news.liga.net/en/politics/news/komissiya-oon-nekotoryh-ukraintsev-rossiyane-pytali-do-smerti-nasilovali-jenschin-19-83-let

[Hoodat]

from r/worldnews

https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/16s2ffz/russian_officers_who_hadnt_been_paid_by_moscow/

[Hoodat]

Explosion in Saint Petersburg - Part of the city without power

KATERYNA SEROHINA  |  SEPTEMBER 24, 2023 - 22:55



ST. PETERSBURG, SUN - In the Russian city of St. Petersburg, there were reports of an explosion sound. Following this, residents of the city began to report a mass power outage in the Pushkin district, according to "Fontanka."

"In Shushary, there is practically no electricity. First of May, Pushkinska, Valday streets, and Vitebsky Avenue are completely without electricity. Traffic lights and stores are not working. There is a traffic jam at the entrance," a reader wrote.

Locals who called emergency services were told that restoration work would be completed late at night.  .  .

https://newsukraine.rbc.ua/news/explosion-in-saint-petersburg-part-of-the-1695584708.html

[Hoodat]

Russia destroys landmark Odesa Hotel