Author Topic: Biden will let California lead on electric trucks, despite industry protest  (Read 1594 times)

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Online Timber Rattler

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2023/03/20/epa-california-waiver-electric-trucks/?utm_source=Agri-Pulse+Daily+Harvest+WEST&utm_campaign=7ff8128501-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2023_03_21_01_57&utm_medium=email

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The Biden administration will approve new California rules to cut tailpipe pollution and phase out sales of diesel-burning trucks, according to three people briefed on the plans, a move that could jump-start the nation’s transition to electric-powered trucks and help communities harmed by diesel pollution.

The Environmental Protection Agency intends to grant California “waivers” to enforce environmental rules that are significantly tougher than federal requirements and that state regulators have already approved, said these individuals, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because the announcement was not yet public.

The new policies could have a profound effect on the air Californians breathe. Heavy-duty trucks account for nearly a third of the state’s smog-forming nitrogen oxide and more than a quarter of its fine particle pollution from diesel fuel. Both of these harmful pollutants are linked to asthma, other respiratory illnesses and premature death. Environmental advocates on behalf of Black and Latino Californians, who are more likely to live near ports, huge warehouse complexes and major highways, have long pleaded with the state’s regulators to strengthen pollution limits on the trucks whose fumes waft through their neighborhoods. Climate activists have echoed these demands.

The rules could also have national significance. Six other states, which together with California represent about 20 percent of the nation’s heavy-duty vehicle sales, have already committed to follow California’s tougher standards. But because of the way the Clean Air Act works, California and those other states cannot put their plans into action until the EPA grants the state a waiver.

“This is a critical market signal,” said Matt Petersen, who heads the nonprofit Los Angeles Cleantech Incubator and leads a regional project to slash the greenhouse gas emissions from shipping and logistics operations in Southern California. “Goods movement is a huge part of our economy here … yet it’s the single largest source of air pollution between the trucks and trains and ships,” he said. “Now we need to get the charging infrastructure in place, we need to get the trucks on the road, and we need to get the domestic supply chain in place.”

California’s new policies include stricter pollution limits for heavy-duty vehicles — such as delivery vans, garbage trucks and 18-wheelers — that require them to cut emissions of nitrogen oxide and particulate matter. These rules would apply to vehicles beginning with the 2024 model year, three years ahead of the administration’s latest regulations, which start with the model year 2027.

Another rule sets new sales requirements for truck makers. Beginning next year, manufacturers will have to sell increasing percentages of zero-emission trucks, buses and vans annually, eventually reaching a target of selling all-electric or hydrogen fuel-cell trucks by 2045. State officials estimate the rule would reduce emissions of carbon dioxide by 307 million metric tons by 2050.

Excerpt.
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Offline Kamaji

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:facepalm2:

California should be restricted so that it cannot impose limitations that are greater than those at the federal level.  Not doing so permits the California tail to wag the U.S. dog on emissions and allows California to control the economies of the other 49 states, in violation of the spirit of the commerce clause.

Offline Wingnut

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Next move for Cali is to ban diesel powered locomotives.

Time move shipping out of Cali and close their POE.  Texas, Lousiana, FL, and the carolinias will welcom truckers who burn diesel fuel.
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Offline DefiantMassRINO

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Add this to the list of other California disasters ... wildfires, mudslides, earthquakes, riots, Governor Gavin Newsom
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Offline catfish1957

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Add this to the list of other California disasters ... wildfires, mudslides, earthquakes, riots, Governor Gavin Newsom

Earthquakes will be especially interesting since the infrastructual impacts will reek havoc on the electrical grid.  This will amount to not having any IC engines to do any respone, cleanup, or rebuilding.

They basically will turn a recovery that normally takes a few years into decade(s). If at all
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Earthquakes will be especially interesting since the infrastructual impacts will reek havoc on the electrical grid.  This will amount to not having any IC engines to do any respone, cleanup, or rebuilding.

They basically will turn a recovery that normally takes a few years into decade(s). If at all
If California doesn't allow IC engined vehicles, they will have to fend for themselves.
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If California doesn't allow IC engined vehicles, they will have to fend for themselves.

But therein lies the problem, California (although it's population is shrinking) is still a massive enough market, and politically powerful, that the auto companies (being short-sighted and greedy as they are) will bend under the pressure to comply, which is what Biden and his regime is counting on.  The companies will have to make (and are already making) difficult choices about which products to focus on, and ultimately go with EV across the board to satisfy those political demands, the ultimate consequences for the country be damned.  They can't, and won't make, one kind of car for California and New York, and another kind of car for the rest of the country.  It's economically unfeasible.  Hence, in Biden's eyes, California is leading by establishing de facto National dictates.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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But therein lies the problem, California (although it's population is shrinking) is still a massive enough market, and politically powerful, that the auto companies (being short-sighted and greedy as they are) will bend under the pressure to comply, which is what Biden and his regime is counting on.  The companies will have to make (and are already making) difficult choices about which products to focus on, and ultimately go with EV across the board to satisfy those political demands, the ultimate consequences for the country be damned.  They can't, and won't make, one kind of car for California and New York, and another kind of car for the rest of the country.  It's economically unfeasible.  Hence, in Biden's eyes, California is leading by establishing de facto National dictates.
Well, they can sell cars to California, then, but not to me. And I am one of millions who live where the damned things will not get you from point A to point B.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Fishrrman

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Rattler strikes with:
"They can't, and won't make, one kind of car for California and New York, and another kind of car for the rest of the country.  It's economically unfeasible."

No, it's not.
Automakers could simply drop California as a market. The rest of "the market" is significantly larger.

Toyota is already on record as saying they have no intention of going completely "electric", and that ice vehicles have a place in that company's future.

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised to see Toyota go after BOTH markets.

Offline Kamaji

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Well, they can sell cars to California, then, but not to me. And I am one of millions who live where the damned things will not get you from point A to point B.

As compared to selling cars to the remaining hundreds of millions?  WADR, my friend, I suspect you would get the short end of the bargain on that one.

Offline Smokin Joe

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As compared to selling cars to the remaining hundreds of millions?  WADR, my friend, I suspect you would get the short end of the bargain on that one.
What you don't get is that I have never owned a new vehicle.
My current fleet (6) was bought used, for under 10K total.
Those vehicles do anything I need done.
The absence of road salt use in this State means the bodies and chassis remain virtually rust-free, too.

Buy a used EV?  :silly: :silly: :silly:

NOPE!

What's more, I have the tools, know how, and parts to keep most of the current ones running the rest of my life.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline roamer_1

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What you don't get is that I have never owned a new vehicle.
My current fleet (6) was bought used, for under 10K total.
Those vehicles do anything I need done.
The absence of road salt use in this State means the bodies and chassis remain virtually rust-free, too.

Buy a used EV?  :silly: :silly: :silly:

NOPE!

What's more, I have the tools, know how, and parts to keep most of the current ones running the rest of my life.

DITTOS. Except the rust... We have salt now, at least in this, Lake,  and Lincoln counties...

I have another project if I ever get out of the house again. I am looking for a 70s full size Chevy van to do a lifted 4wd 1T conversion... An overlanding rig... I doubt I am making it back to deep bush on my legs anymore.

Dunno though. Might go all out and do a tandem axle trailer instead.
but I keep wondering if I can get my 12v Cummins and an Allison under that van... :pondering:

That kinda thing gives me the fizz...  happy77

Offline Wingnut

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Buy a used EV?  :silly: :silly: :silly:

NOPE!



You would have to be a fool to ever buy a used EV unless they offer a free battery replacement for 10 years after purchase.  Even then you would still be a fool, but with a disposable car.
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Offline Kamaji

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What you don't get is that I have never owned a new vehicle.
My current fleet (6) was bought used, for under 10K total.
Those vehicles do anything I need done.
The absence of road salt use in this State means the bodies and chassis remain virtually rust-free, too.

Buy a used EV?  :silly: :silly: :silly:

NOPE!

What's more, I have the tools, know how, and parts to keep most of the current ones running the rest of my life.

Do you have the facilities to generate your own fuel?

Offline roamer_1

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Do you have the facilities to generate your own fuel?

If it will run on corn I do...  :whistle:

Offline Kamaji

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If it will run on corn I do...  :whistle:

Do any of the machines you have run on corn?

Offline roamer_1

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Do any of the machines you have run on corn?

CAN THEY?
Yes, my pickup probably can.  :whistle:
Not saying that it does...

Offline bigheadfred

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@Kamaji  have you heard of "The Shining"?   :laugh: @roamer_1
« Last Edit: March 23, 2023, 06:26:07 pm by bigheadfred »
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Offline roamer_1

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@Kamaji  have you heard of " The Shining"?   :laugh: @roamer_1

 :laugh:
 :pondering:

More 'Dukes of Hazzard'  :whistle:
 :laugh:

@bigheadfred 

Offline Kamaji

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@Kamaji  have you heard of "The Shining"?   :laugh: @roamer_1

Yes, I have.  If one has an ICE that will run on still-produced 'shine, great; I don't think that one will acquire such an ICE simply by going down to the local auto-parts store, however.

Offline roamer_1

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Yes, I have.  If one has an ICE that will run on still-produced 'shine, great; I don't think that one will acquire such an ICE simply by going down to the local auto-parts store, however.

That depends...
Thanks to ethanol, modern engines can take the alcohol. It's the compression - the octane - that will rattle em apart now. You can lower the octane several ways that I don't know right off... But water does, I know... Think Heet. But that is steam, and you are right back to needing to handle higher compression.

So technically, an analog engine that is made for compression, with brass guides and close machining (to handle the alcohol) has a fair chance.

Mine burns premium. But it really, really likes octane booster and runs really nice on 25% AV gas. And it is close milled with flat tops, after-market rods, high-volume oil, and brass guides (kinda standard build for me).

SO it is on the bubble. Like I said, I think it would run on shine if I could deaden the blow a little safely..
It would certainly run alright at 25% shine as a supplement, which might take the edge off of crazy gas prices...

Offline Kamaji

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That depends...
Thanks to ethanol, modern engines can take the alcohol. It's the compression - the octane - that will rattle em apart now. You can lower the octane several ways that I don't know right off... But water does, I know... Think Heet. But that is steam, and you are right back to needing to handle higher compression.

So technically, an analog engine that is made for compression, with brass guides and close machining (to handle the alcohol) has a fair chance.

Mine burns premium. But it really, really likes octane booster and runs really nice on 25% AV gas. And it is close milled with flat tops, after-market rods, high-volume oil, and brass guides (kinda standard build for me).

SO it is on the bubble. Like I said, I think it would run on shine if I could deaden the blow a little safely..
It would certainly run alright at 25% shine as a supplement, which might take the edge off of crazy gas prices...

If it needs any quantity of gasoline to run, then it will be at the mercy of the EV-fascists.  Once a sufficient percentage of EVs have been mandated, gasoline supplies will begin to be restricted, and eventually sale of gasoline will be prohibited - one will have to be a government employee to obtain any - and thus those who are not in a privileged position will either have to go to EVs, or operate ICE vehicles that can run on something the owner can self-produce, like shine.  That may reinvigorate the old illegal moonshine networks, however, since production of alcohol beyond about 100 gallons a year for personal use, is subject to federal, and possibly state, excise tax.

Offline roamer_1

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If it needs any quantity of gasoline to run, then it will be at the mercy of the EV-fascists.  Once a sufficient percentage of EVs have been mandated, gasoline supplies will begin to be restricted, and eventually sale of gasoline will be prohibited - one will have to be a government employee to obtain any - and thus those who are not in a privileged position will either have to go to EVs, or operate ICE vehicles that can run on something the owner can self-produce, like shine.  That may reinvigorate the old illegal moonshine networks, however, since production of alcohol beyond about 100 gallons a year for personal use, is subject to federal, and possibly state, excise tax.

I hate to tell you... But shine networks never left. There's still plenty of good ol boys up in the holler making mash.

BUT, more to the point, even if, there's still diesel/kerosene... Which I am less educated on, but I have a buddy that does it. so the knowledge is there... And propane...

Hell, I don't care. If push comes to shove, I am happy as hell on a horse.

The point being it would be hard to keep rural parts down.

Offline Wingnut

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That depends...
But water does, I know... Think Heet. But that is steam, and you are right back to needing to handle higher compression.



Back in the mid 80's I dropped a 11.25-1 compression poniac 455 I pulled from a buddies dirt track car and dropped it into a project car i was building.  The only thing the car would run on without severe detonation (in the summer Tampa heat) was racing fuel.   The other option was install a water injection system.  I don't remember the estimated cost of that but I opted not to do it.  Ended up pulling the heads off and slapped on some heads from a smog motor.  I could run it with 93 oct. with a can of lead booster from the auto parts store.

Anyway spraying water directly into the combustion chamber to cool certain parts prevents premature detonation.
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Offline Kamaji

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I hate to tell you... But shine networks never left. There's still plenty of good ol boys up in the holler making mash.

BUT, more to the point, even if, there's still diesel/kerosene... Which I am less educated on, but I have a buddy that does it. so the knowledge is there... And propane...

Hell, I don't care. If push comes to shove, I am happy as hell on a horse.

The point being it would be hard to keep rural parts down.

Doesn't bother me a bit if they still exist.  However, if they're being used to produce alcohol as a fuel for ICEs, I wager the federal gov't will step up its enforcement activities against them manifold times.

As far as fuels go, let me be more precise - there won't be any petroleum-based fuels, like diesel or kerosene, to act as a base to which alcohol is added.  Not unless one has one's own source of raw oil and a refinery to produce refined fuels.

Propane won't be available either.

So it'll be down to running ICEs that can burn pure alcohol.

Yes, I know it can be done, but I also know that (a) current blocks that can do that are not widely available to all and sundry, (b) coverting an existing block over will be difficult, and (c) replacement parts will become harder and harder to come by.  I also know that most rural folk, whatever their resourcefulness is, are not going to be suddenly sprouting funny-car engines from out their ears.

As a result, most rural folk will not be able to continue with ICE for any significant period of time if the eco-fascists in California are allowed to act as the tail that wags the national dog and set national fuel and ICE policy based on their own idiotic political agenda.

It'll be EVs, and building up ersatz charging facilities is likely to be where the ingenuity will be brought to bear - no need to machine blocks to run pure fuel as such if one can simply build a generator that will utilize alcohol or other available fuels to recharge the EV - or else it'll be horses.

So yeah, taking a "let them do it to themselves" attitude with California is a good way to find one's self being governed by California eco-fascist principles without ever having had a say in the matter.