Ukraine 3

[Kamaji]

@Maj. Bill Martin

IMO, the information here https://contra.substack.com/p/how-the-west-sowed-the-seeds-of-war provides ample examples of "poking the Bear".

And since the invasion of Ukraine our government from the top down has repeatedly called for a regime change in Russia, even calling for the assassination of its head of state.

Our government has pledged unlimited support in time, money, more and more advanced military hardware and the opposition leader in the Senate has declared this war to be the most important issue in the United States today. 

We have directly countered, not on behalf of NATO,  Russian threats with our own specific to nuclear weapons.

We refuse to disavow using NATO as a threat on behalf of a non-member ---- turning NATO from a defensive alliance into an offensive one. 

We support the expansion of NATO with the admission of Sweden and Finland  -- further boxing in Russia (poke, poke, poke).

We have "advisors" on the ground in Ukraine and US troops placed around Ukraine's borders ----- ready and, apparently, willing to cross them.

We refuse any attempt at negotiations, choosing instead to give a hero's welcome to a man beating the drums of war in a public forum before the most powerful political body in the world.

Our government is pleased with this war and has made it quite clear we intend to continue it.

Wow.  What a pack of - dare I say it - lies.

[DB]

She's fully invested.

[Smokin Joe]

Sweden has exhibited no desire to be a Russian satellite, and the Finlanders made their position known during the Winter War, at Russia's (USSR) expense. IMHO, NATO membership doesn't take anything from Russia it ever had, especially after the USSR divested itself of the various Republics.

But Ukraine did surrender its nukes for the promise that it's borders would be honored, and Russia violated them by invading, first the Crimea, much like the forces invading the US now, then openly and militarily in this latest iteration after their puppet was deposed. Maybe they figured a comedian and entertainer would be an easy mark, but like with Ronald Reagan (also an entertainer with wit), it isn't turning out that way.

The war could end tomorrow, if the Russians would go home that fast.

[Right_in_Virginia]

One final question @Maj. Bill Martin --- if I may.

We are living through a time in our history when the lies from our government are being exposed on a near daily basis.  Not only is the lie being exposed, but so, too, is the concerted effort by our government to coordinate a propaganda campaign with social and legacy media to transform the information we receive from lies to truth.

The control of information has become this regime's weapon of choice against its own citizens. ----  Whether it be the truth about the economy, COVID, our borders, Jan 6, election fraud, "Russia, Russia, Russia", impeachments, Burisma, China, the identity of the US puppet master ----- all truth is what our government ---- and only our government says it is.  And, the penalties for any breach are swift and severe ----  just ask any J6 protestor rotting in the DC Gulag without benefit of trial.

So, here is my question: How is it possible that our government can provably lie about everything   ---- except Ukraine? 

How does one ignore the nexus of corruption and the suppression of free speech, thought and information and believe the history of how we arrived at the brink of another Great War in Europe the regime is rewriting,  the stories it is telling about how the war is unfolding ----- and that all of this is in the best economic and security interests of the United States with such blind, unquestioning loyalty?

How does one do this?

[Right_in_Virginia]

Wow.  What a pack of - dare I say it - lies.

You can say anything you want.  But where's the lie?

[Kamaji]

Sweden has exhibited no desire to be a Russian satellite, and the Finlanders made their position known during the Winter War, at Russia's (USSR) expense. IMHO, NATO membership doesn't take anything from Russia it ever had, especially after the USSR divested itself of the various Republics.

But Ukraine did surrender its nukes for the promise that it's borders would be honored, and Russia violated them by invading, first the Crimea, much like the forces invading the US now, then openly and militarily in this latest iteration after their puppet was deposed. Maybe they figured a comedian and entertainer would be an easy mark, but like with Ronald Reagan (also an entertainer with wit), it isn't turning out that way.

The war could end tomorrow, if the Russians would go home that fast.

In addition, the U.S. committed itself at the time Ukraine gave up its nukes to protect Ukraine's borders from incursion.  As such, (a) Russia is in violation of its agreements, and (b) the U.S. is obliged to assist Ukraine with its defense.

[Smokin Joe]

One final question @Maj. Bill Martin --- if I may.

We are living through a time in our history when the lies from our government are being exposed on a near daily basis.  Not only is the lie being exposed, but so, too, is the concerted effort by our government to coordinate a propaganda campaign with social and legacy media to transform the information we receive from lies to truth.

The control of information has become this regime's weapon of choice against its own citizens. ----  Whether it be the truth about the economy, COVID, our borders, Jan 6, election fraud, "Russia, Russia, Russia", impeachments, Burisma, China, the identity of the US puppet master ----- all truth is what our government ---- and only our government says it is.  And, the penalties for any breach are swift and severe ----  just ask any J6 protestor rotting in the DC Gulag without benefit of trial.

So, here is my question: How is it possible that our government can provably lie about everything   ---- except Ukraine? 

How does one ignore the nexus of corruption and the suppression of free speech, thought and information and believe the history of how we arrived at the brink of another Great War in Europe the regime is rewriting,  the stories it is telling about how the war is unfolding ----- and that all of this is in the best economic and security interests of the United States with such blind, unquestioning loyalty?

How does one do this?

Oh, I have little doubt our government is still lying, not about the Russians invading Ukraine (that's pretty self-evident, Ukraine didn't drag the border under the Russians and point fingers, after all), but about the amount of aid that is going there. Huge dollar amounts are touted, but how much of that money reaches Ukraine in any form, be it arms, humanitarian aid (food, clothing, etc., not 'counseling'), or even cash, and how much is funneled off to contractors, delivery services, consultants and the like, while being included in the total (and we haven't even mentioned kickbacks, bribes, baksheesh, or skimming off the top)?

Every lie, to be plausible, has some element of truth, well perhaps except for some of the COVID whoppers, but there was no middle ground there.

[Hoodat]

@Maj. Bill Martin

IMO, the information here https://contra.substack.com/p/how-the-west-sowed-the-seeds-of-war provides ample examples of "poking the Bear".

Ah, Pedro Gonzalez, the humble magazine salesman and part time blogger.  You've posted his bullshit here before.

And since the invasion of Ukraine our government from the top down has repeatedly called for a regime change in Russia, even calling for the assassination of its head of state.

This has ZERO connection with Russia's decision to invade Ukraine and their current refusal to withdraw.

@Maj. Bill Martin
Our government has pledged unlimited support in time, money, more and more advanced military hardware and the opposition leader in the Senate has declared this war to be the most important issue in the United States today.

There are clearly limits to our support.  The current regime has made a point of denying Ukraine the offensive weaponry needed to take the war to the Russians. And the 'opposition' [sic] leader in the Senate provides no opposition, nor does any legislator speak for US foreign policy.

We have directly countered, not on behalf of NATO,  Russian threats with our own specific to nuclear weapons.

This has been official US policy since August 29, 1949.

We refuse to disavow using NATO as a threat on behalf of a non-member ---- turning NATO from a defensive alliance into an offensive one.

Uh, no.  The threat of NATO exists only in response to an attack on a NATO member.  Nowhere has anyone threatened a NATO offensive attack on Russia for anything going on inside Ukraine.

We support the expansion of NATO with the admission of Sweden and Finland  -- further boxing in Russia (poke, poke, poke).

The inroads for Swedish and Finnish requests were born out of Russian threats.  It is Russia doing the poking, not the US.  Without Russia's act of aggression combined with widespread war crimes, Finland and Sweden would still be neutral.

We have "advisors" on the ground in Ukraine and US troops placed around Ukraine's borders ----- ready and, apparently, willing to cross them.

Ukraine has Russian troop actually inside of Ukraine killing civilians and committing atrocities.  How does that compare?  And more importantly, how is that justification for an invasion that predates the placement of those advisors?

We refuse any attempt at negotiations, choosing instead to give a hero's welcome to a man beating the drums of war in a public forum before the most powerful political body in the world.

Why should be be negotiating?  And for what?  We have no authority to negotiate on behalf of Ukraine.

[Kamaji]

Ah, Pedro Gonzalez, the humble magazine salesman and part time blogger.  You've posted his bullshit here before.


This has ZERO connection with Russia's decision to invade Ukraine and their current refusal to withdraw.


There are clearly limits to our support.  The current regime has made a point of denying Ukraine the offensive weaponry needed to take the war to the Russians. And the 'opposition' [sic] leader in the Senate provides no opposition, nor does any legislator speak for US foreign policy.


This has been official US policy since August 29, 1949.


Uh, no.  The threat of NATO exists only in response to an attack on a NATO member.  Nowhere has anyone threatened a NATO offensive attack on Russia for anything going on inside Ukraine.


The inroads for Swedish and Finnish requests were born out of Russian threats.  It is Russia doing the poking, not the US.  Without Russia's act of aggression combined with widespread war crimes, Finland and Sweden would still be neutral.


Ukraine has Russian troop actually inside of Ukraine killing civilians and committing atrocities.  How does that compare?  And more importantly, how is that justification for an invasion that predates the placement of those advisors?


Why should be be negotiating?  And for what?  We have no authority to negotiate on behalf of Ukraine.

 

[Maj. Bill Martin]

@Right_in_Virginia

@Maj. Bill Martin

IMO, the information here https://contra.substack.com/p/how-the-west-sowed-the-seeds-of-war provides ample examples of "poking the Bear".

Okay, I was hoping you'd give me your thoughts instead of just link to someone else's (because I don't want to get sidetracked over what an article actually means), but I'll address the first point in that article, which is NATO refusing to discount the possibility of Ukraine or Georgia joining NATO at some point in the future.  I assume that's the "biggie".  The first and most obviously rebuke to that is that neither Ukraine nor Georgia were anywhere close to actually being admitted to NATO.  There was no application for membership submitted, NATO was on record as saying Ukraine had a long way to go, and we know that the process takes months anyway.  So how can the prospect of something that is years away, and may never happen at all, constitute a freaking "existential threat" sufficient to justify a war of conquest?? 

But even if you ignore that point, the argument regarding NATO being an "existential threat" is bogus anyway.  Your article first says this:

First, it’s important to understand why Russia views Ukraine’s suing for NATO membership as an existential threat.

But the article, despite saying it is "important to understand why" Russia views NATO memberships as an existence threat, never actually explains that WHY at all..  All it does it quote Russians making completely conclusory statements like “Russian leaders have told their Western counterparts on many occasions that they consider NATO expansion into Georgia and Ukraine unacceptable."  Okay, the Russians saying that something is "unacceptable" does not explain how it constitutes an "existential threat".  And the reason the article never does explain how it is an "existential threat" is because it very clearly is not.  The only "existential threat" is to the Russian/Putinist dream of reconstituting the Russian Empire/Soviet Union.  NATO membership threatens that dream because Russia can't invade its neighbors once they have joined NATO.  But there is no rational argument for how mere membership in NATO constitutes an existential threat to Russia itself.

And since the invasion of Ukraine our government from the top down has repeatedly called for a regime change in Russia, even calling for the assassination of its head of state.

You can't use something that by your own words only happened "since the invasion" to justify the invasion itself.  And again, since this is supposed to relate to the claim that we've been "orchestrating a war" against Russia for years, this doesn't cut it.

The comments about Putin can't be looked at out of context, which is the belief that Putin himself will never stop the war.  I'm sure if Putin woke up tomorrow and said "guys, we are ending our Special Military Operation and heading home", everyone would celebrate and you wouldn't hear a peep about offing him.  But absent that, him going to meet his Maker is the best way for this to end.  That's just a fact.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

One final question @Maj. Bill Martin --- if I may.

Of course -- I admire your willingness to discuss this civilly with me and the rest of us jackals.  Tough when you're outnumbered.

We are living through a time in our history when the lies from our government are being exposed on a near daily basis.  Not only is the lie being exposed, but so, too, is the concerted effort by our government to coordinate a propaganda campaign with social and legacy media to transform the information we receive from lies to truth. The control of information has become this regime's weapon of choice against its own citizens. ----  Whether it be the truth about the economy, COVID, our borders, Jan 6, election fraud, "Russia, Russia, Russia", impeachments, Burisma, China, the identity of the US puppet master ----- all truth is what our government ---- and only our government says it is.  And, the penalties for any breach are swift and severe ----  just ask any J6 protestor rotting in the DC Gulag without benefit of trial.

So, here is my question: How is it possible that our government can provably lie about everything   ---- except Ukraine?

 

Of course our government can lie about Ukraine.  It probably has.  But the facts that justify our support for Ukraine have nothing to do with anything our government says.  Those facts are: 1) Russia invaded Ukraine without legitimate justification in 2014, and did the same in 2022, and;  2) Ukrainians clearly are willing to fight and die to defend their own country.   The reasons why I believe those invasions were unjustified I've explained elsewhere, and none of my reasoning is dependent upon a word our government has said.  And if the Ukrainians are willing to fight to defend their country, I believe it is very strongly in the interests of the U.S. to give them the weapons necessary to defeat that invasion.

I couldn't care less about Burisma or claims of Ukrainian corruption.  Doesn't factor into my reasons for supporting Ukraine in the slightest.

[Hoodat]

The lies of our own government regarding Ukraine don't have a damn thing to do with Russian aggression.

Russia invaded Ukraine.  Period.  We did not do it for them.  They did it on their own.

[sneakypete]

The NKVD is back.

@Hoodat

This is supposed to be news? The Soviets have been doing this since they took power. Either the NKVD or the KGB,I forget which at the moment,used to follow in the rear of all Soviet assault,and shoot to death any soldier they saw that was trying to retreat instead of charging.

I don't even know why anyone,especially a reporter,would be surprised by this. In the USSR,the Politburo OWN the Soviet subjects and are free to do anything with them they wish,including a secret trial and immediate execution with no questions asked. The Chicoms do the same thing. Soldiers are nothing more than expendable "tools".

It is Communist doctrine.

Update!

I just remembered,it is the NKVD that does this,and these monsters populate what the Soviet Army calls "Blocking Squads". Their job is to block/shoot to death any soldier that tries to retreat.

THEY,of course,are ALWAYS in the rear,NEVER in the front lines.

[Cyber Liberty]

To me, the timing of the current war in Ukraine is an explicit reaction to Sloe Joe's reckless abandonment of Afghanistan last August.  They always wanted all of Ukraine (not just the eastern sections), ever since the collapse of the Soviet empire.

We could have had a more orderly exit, but the Democrats wanted it to be messy so they could blame us for it.

[Kamaji]

Of course -- I admire your willingness to discuss this civilly with me and the rest of us jackals.  Tough when you're outnumbered.
 

Of course our government can lie about Ukraine.  It probably has.  But the facts that justify our support for Ukraine have nothing to do with anything our government says.  Those facts are: 1) Russia invaded Ukraine without legitimate justification in 2014, and did the same in 2022, and;  2) Ukrainians clearly are willing to fight and die to defend their own country.   The reasons why I believe those invasions were unjustified I've explained elsewhere, and none of my reasoning is dependent upon a word our government has said.  And if the Ukrainians are willing to fight to defend their country, I believe it is very strongly in the interests of the U.S. to give them the weapons necessary to defeat that invasion.

I couldn't care less about Burisma or claims of Ukrainian corruption.  Doesn't factor into my reasons for supporting Ukraine in the slightest.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

To me, the timing of the current war in Ukraine is an explicit reaction to Sloe Joe's reckless abandonment of Afghanistan last August.  They always wanted all of Ukraine (not just the eastern sections), ever since the collapse of the Soviet empire.

We could have had a more orderly exit, but the Democrats wanted it to be messy so they could blame us for it.

I agree that our demonstrated weakness in Afghanistan likely encourage Russia to believe it could get away with it.  Weakness encirages aggression.

And China is watching very carefully to see whether the West is willing to stand up to Russia.

[DB]

Of course -- I admire your willingness to discuss this civilly with me and the rest of us jackals.  Tough when you're outnumbered.
 

Of course our government can lie about Ukraine.  It probably has.  But the facts that justify our support for Ukraine have nothing to do with anything our government says.  Those facts are: 1) Russia invaded Ukraine without legitimate justification in 2014, and did the same in 2022, and;  2) Ukrainians clearly are willing to fight and die to defend their own country.   The reasons why I believe those invasions were unjustified I've explained elsewhere, and none of my reasoning is dependent upon a word our government has said.  And if the Ukrainians are willing to fight to defend their country, I believe it is very strongly in the interests of the U.S. to give them the weapons necessary to defeat that invasion.

I couldn't care less about Burisma or claims of Ukrainian corruption.  Doesn't factor into my reasons for supporting Ukraine in the slightest.

I agree completely.

[Right_in_Virginia]

Of course -- I admire your willingness to discuss this civilly with me and the rest of us jackals.  Tough when you're outnumbered.
 
Of course our government can lie about Ukraine.  It probably has.  But the facts that justify our support for Ukraine have nothing to do with anything our government says. 

@Maj. Bill Martin

How is this possible when everything you think you know is from the government?   When every independent report or opinion is summarily dismissed as fringe or fabrication?  When anyone asking self-proclaimed intelligent people to question, to trust but verify, is greeted with a chorus of "Putin lover" and "liar"?

How can you claim, with I presume a straight face, that "support for Ukraine has nothing to do with what our government says"??

Those facts are: 1) Russia invaded Ukraine without legitimate justification in 2014, and did the same in 2022, and

According solely to the rewritten narrative from this regime.

  2) Ukrainians clearly are willing to fight and die to defend their own country.   

I mean no disrespect to the Ukrainian people who are clearly paying the most for this ill-considered shit show, but when did people willing to fight for their country become the criteria for our support?   I've always thought a clear cut national interest is our top priority in all military decisions.  And we have zero here.

I will leave this thread now and let all continue to promote a conflict we should never have instigated and a government openly propagandizing its intent to escalate it.   Unfortunately, I take rational thinking with me.

But, the bubble is again secure. 

[Maj. Bill Martin]

@Right_in_Virginia

@Maj. Bill Martin

How is this possible when everything you think you know is from the government?   When every independent report or opinion is summarily dismissed as fringe or fabrication?  When anyone asking self-proclaimed intelligent people to question, to trust but verify, is greeted with a chorus of "Putin lover" and "liar"?

It isn't.  I'm not sure how you can even claim that.  Nobody, on either side, denies that there was a referendum in 1991 where every single oblast in Ukraine voted for independence.  Nobody denies that Yeltsin and Gorbachev both recognized the validity of that election.  Nobody denies that the parties agreed to the terms of the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, or what its terms are.  I've read it myself, on public websites.  Not even the Russians deny it.  Those are foundational facts that don't come just from the U.S. government.  So how can you claim that "everything I know is from the government"??

Nobody denies that the Ukrainian Parliament voted in February 2013 to execute an Agreement with the EU.  Nobody denies (Putin himself eventually bragged about it after Russia denied it for months) that Russia sent troops secretly to Crimea in February 2014 to take over key infrastructure, etc..

These are all facts to which everyone agrees, and they are the most relevant facts in the entire dispute.

I will say I am very curious to actually have a discussion about how the prospect of Ukraine and Georgia perhaps one day joining NATO constituted an existential threat to Russia that justified invasion.  I have never, since this entire war began, heard anyone willing to do that.

[DB]

"I will say I am very curious to actually have a discussion about how the prospect of Ukraine and Georgia perhaps one day joining NATO constituted an existential threat to Russia that justified invasion.  I have never, since this entire war began, heard anyone willing to do that."

And the fact that the "buffer" they demanded would be completely gone if they took over Ukraine. It also takes years to join NATO with many steps along the way. There was no immediate threat at all when they further invaded.

[Hoodat]

[Kamaji]

Furious Putin shows his rage at Russia's failing war effort as he demotes 'General Armageddon' overseeing invasion and publicly humiliates hapless deputy PM for 'fooling around'

By WILL STEWART and DAVID AVERRE FOR MAILONLINE
11 January 2023

Vladimir Putin ordered yet another shake-up of his war cabinet yesterday, demoting the head of his forces in Ukraine after only three months on the job.

General Sergei Surovikin, who earned the fearsome nickname 'General Armageddon' for employing brutal tactics during Russia's intervention in Syria, was named as Russia's overall military commander on October 8.

Putin yesterday replaced Surovikin with General Valery Gerasimov, Russia's chief of the general staff who was seen by many as the top architect of the invasion. But critics have already blamed him for Moscow's military setbacks.

He also humiliated one of his deputy prime ministers on a video conference call, blasting the official for failing to procure civilian and military planes and accusing him of 'fooling around'.

*  *  *

Source:  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11624411/Furious-Putin-shows-rage-publicly-humiliates-hapless-deputy-PM.html

[Hoodat]

Those facts are: 1) Russia invaded Ukraine without legitimate justification in 2014, and did the same in 2022, and

According solely to the rewritten narrative from this regime.

Russia's invasions of Ukraine are well documented historical facts.  How do you expect to explain away your denial of those facts?

Russia's sole justification was that it wanted Ukrainian land.

[bilo]

Sweden has exhibited no desire to be a Russian satellite, and the Finlanders made their position known during the Winter War, at Russia's (USSR) expense. IMHO, NATO membership doesn't take anything from Russia it ever had, especially after the USSR divested itself of the various Republics.

But Ukraine did surrender its nukes for the promise that it's borders would be honored, and Russia violated them by invading, first the Crimea, much like the forces invading the US now, then openly and militarily in this latest iteration after their puppet was deposed. Maybe they figured a comedian and entertainer would be an easy mark, but like with Ronald Reagan (also an entertainer with wit), it isn't turning out that way.

The war could end tomorrow, if the Russians would go home that fast.

It really is that simple and straight forward.

As the war has progressed I find I have less and less respect for the Ukrainian politicians, but my desire to see us support the Ukrainian people and our commitment to them when they surrendered their nuclear weapons has not wavered.

[Hoodat]

Russian Mercenaries’ Human Wave Tactics Push Back Ukrainian Troops In Soledar

David Axe  |  Jan 12, 2023  |  05:19pm EST


Wagner fighters, purportedly in Soledar's salt mines.VIA SOCIAL MEDIA

When the Ukrainian army began rotating fresh units into eastern Ukraine in mid-December, the 46th Air Mobile Brigade drew the short straw.

It rotated into the sector around Bakhmut, a town in eastern Ukraine’s Donbas region, 30 miles north of Donetsk, the seat of the separatist Donetsk People’s Republic.

Bakhmut, a town with a pre-war population of 72,000, is the unlucky object of Russian obsession. The Wagner Group, the shadowy mercenary company financed by Yevgeny Prigozhin—who earlier in life was Russian president Vladimir Putin’s favorite sausage vendor—last spring chose Bakhmut as its main target.

For months, Wagner has hurled battalion after battalion of under-trained troops—ex-convicts, mostly—at Ukrainian defenses in Bakhmut. “Their tactic is to send people to die,”  .  .

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2023/01/12/russian-mercenaries-human-wave-tactics-push-back-ukrainian-troops-in-soledar/?sh=2960be7b7701