Do You Think Cars Were Built Better in the "Old Days"?

[DCPatriot]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

IMO, this car should be able to be produced for a FRACTION of the cost of today's cars with all the conveniences.

I remember paying only $4795. for a  NEW 1973 Ford LTD Brougham... my 2 year-old 1964 Corvette Stingray only cost me $3,000.  (It was stolen from campus and found in Toronto, Canada 2 YEARS LATER!)

To pay more than $15K for a decent used car today with less than 100K miles should be a cakewalk.

The loans for vehicles should be amortized over 30 years...since my 1st home only cost me $36,900.   Let the loan 'balloon' after 5 years.

[EdinVA]

I guess it would depend on your definition of "better", cars today are safer, cars today have better gas mileage but beyond that todays cars have to much plastic and are to reliant on computers and they all look the same.

[DCPatriot]

I guess it would depend on your definition of "better", cars today are safer, cars today have better gas mileage but beyond that todays cars have to much plastic and are to reliant on computers and they all look the same.

Well, it was nice to be able to tune-up your own vehicle back then.  All you needed were plugs, points, condenser, and a timing light to shine on that chalk mark on the belt.

[roamer_1]

The tipping point was sometime in the 80s...

90s rigs are going away - not because they are all done, but because they are way too complicated and expensive to restore.

Wiring and sensors... All of them going bad by now... brittle and breaking... And way, way too much to replace reasonably.

My 79 Chevy pickup is on its third rebuild since I have owned it. Stem to stern. I will probably be in it under $5k. Good for another 100k miles.

Try doing that with say, a 97...

[catfish1957]

My memory of my parents cars in the '60's was that 65K miles was about the shelf life, before it became a garage renter. 

OTOH, back when I had to drive to work, I ran up as much as 240K miles on one vehichle over 12 yrs, with, no major repairs.

[DCPatriot]

The tipping point was sometime in the 80s...

90s rigs are going away - not because they are all done, but because they are way too complicated and expensive to restore.

Wiring and sensors... All of them going bad by now... brittle and breaking... And way, way too much to replace reasonably.

My 79 Chevy pickup is on its third rebuild since I have owned it. Stem to stern. I will probably be in it under $5k. Good for another 100k miles.

Try doing that with say, a 97...

 

An inventor could 'rescue' the American public by re-introducing the 60's and 70's tech for automobiles.   

[DCPatriot]

My memory of my parents cars in the '60's was that 65K miles was about the shelf life, before it became a garage renter. 

OTOH, back when I had to drive to work, I ran up as much as 240K miles on one vehichle over 12 yrs, with, no major repairs.

Since my "BMW Phase", which began in the 90's, I've never had any issues so long as I change the oil and filters.

Budget reasons switched me to Volkswagen.  Had a 2012 Jetta Turbo Diesel with 225K on the clock...VW recalled them and I bought the Passat.

[roamer_1]

An inventor could 'rescue' the American public by re-introducing the 60's and 70's tech for automobiles.   

There's something to be said for that. That 79 came with AM radio, 2 stage wipers, PS, PB, and damn little else.

Back in the day the car was bare bones and you went to the aftermarket to customize it. Even the motor - That tree-fitty came stock with what, 250 HP? Well, it ain't been anywhere near 250 HP since I have owned it... I tend to like around 400 HP. And that ain't that hard to do if you want it.

Add a banging sound system if that's what you want... Custom wheels and tires... fancy paint, a 4 core rad.. ALL cost-plus BUT NOT part of the original car, and NOT part of the original cost.

Take out all that stuff.. and the butt warmers... I will be happy to add what I want, and the car would be a fraction of the price.

[roamer_1]

Since my "BMW Phase", which began in the 90's, I've never had any issues so long as I change the oil and filters.

MOST of the longevity comes from engineered oil. If I fill a 70's rig with synthetics it will easy go 150 or 200k without a problem. And probably more.

[roamer_1]

And give me back a dang stick!

[Elderberry]

I have become comfortable with fuel injection replacing carburetors. I am split. I have 3 carbureted and 3 fuel injected vehicles. All my daily drivers are fuel injected. My daily driver is a 98 Chevy pickup with 280k miles on an unrebuilt 350. Yes, troubleshooting is much more complicated. I have always done my own troubleshooting and maintenance.

What I really, really miss on the older vehicles, is the body and bumper strength. I can't count the times I have been rear-ended or even banged on the side without a scratch on my older vehicles over the years. With just some paint trading. Any impact with these new cars cause high dollar damages.

[Kamaji]

I have become comfortable with fuel injection replacing carburetors. I am split. I have 3 carbureted and 3 fuel injected vehicles. All my daily drivers are fuel injected. My daily driver is a 98 Chevy pickup with 280k miles on an unrebuilt 350. Yes, troubleshooting is much more complicated. I have always done my own troubleshooting and maintenance.

What I really, really miss on the older vehicles, is the body and bumper strength. I can't count the times I have been rear-ended or even banged on the side without a scratch on my older vehicles over the years. With just some paint trading. Any impact with these new cars cause high dollar damages.

It's not only the body damage, but God forbid one of the airbags should go off.  If the airbags go off, the replacement costs are so high that the insurance companies will simply treat many used cars as a write-off.

That happened to a relative of mine.  He paid $10k for a used car that wasn't that old, and then got into a fender-bender in the winter when he slid through a red light and hit the side of another car.  The collision was straight on, and was slow enough that the crumple zones in the front didn't start to deform, so all it really needed was a new nose clip, new headlights, and a new radiator (there was enough flexing that the radiator was cracked).  All eminently repairable/replaceable.  However, the driver's side airbag also went off, and since the replacement costs for those bags were about $4k, the insurance company wrote the car off, gave him a check for 75% of the value, and took the car.  The 75% recovery wasn't even enough to pay off the car loan he had taken out to buy the thing.

[roamer_1]

What I really, really miss on the older vehicles, is the body and bumper strength. I can't count the times I have been rear-ended or even banged on the side without a scratch on my older vehicles over the years. With just some paint trading. Any impact with these new cars cause high dollar damages.

*FACTS*

Up in here we hang big ol cow catchers on em, and big back bumpers... Problem being that IFS can't handle the extra weight (not to mention a snow plow)... So you can either have suspension and a deer in your lap, or a bumper with suspension going out often. a poor pick that we never had to worry about with straight axles.

[EdinVA]

And give me back a dang stick!

And the dimmer switch on the floor...

[GrouchoTex]

Well, it was nice to be able to tune-up your own vehicle back then.  All you needed were plugs, points, condenser, and a timing light to shine on that chalk mark on the belt.

Amen, and you could use a matchbook cover to set the points.
It would run a little rough, but if your feeler gauges weren't handy, it would work.
Most of vehicles didn't require a set on standard and metric wrenches to work on them.

[GrouchoTex]

And give me back a dang stick!

Hard to find in anything but a high end sports car now.

[roamer_1]

And the dimmer switch on the floor...

HEH. I always had TWO... One to run the brights, and the other to fire up the KCs 

[roamer_1]

Hard to find in anything but a high end sports car now.

A pickup without a stick is a waste of time.

Not altogether - Auto is nice on mountain roads for switching gears without losing power to the train... But I will always take a stick if I have the choice.

And a Muncie 465 costs hardly nothing to rebuild - IF you ever have to rebuild it ever (other than brass of course). You can't even give a new tranny the stink eye without it costing fifteen hundred bucks.

[The_Reader_David]

And give me back a dang stick!

We've had newer and newer cars over the years since the first car my wife and I bought in '83, and except for two family vans, a hand-me-down from my mother-in-law and my wife's Honda Civic Hybrid, we've had sticks on all of them:  A series of Nissan Sentras, a Geo Prizm, a Toyota ECHO, and finally the car I really wanted all along, a Mazda Miata RF (I don't want a rag-top in Kansas) -- not a reasonable vehicle except as a second (we still have the Civic Hybrid) or with kids in the house, but it's a blast to drive. 

[Smokin Joe]

I guess it would depend on your definition of "better", cars today are safer, cars today have better gas mileage but beyond that todays cars have to much plastic and are to reliant on computers and they all look the same.

I don't know about safer. They are more tolerant and forgiving of the errors of the idiots behind the wheel, which is just one more way of thwarting natural selection and increasing the number of idiots on the road.

[DCPatriot]

I don't know about safer. They are more tolerant and forgiving of the errors of the idiots behind the wheel, which is just one more way of thwarting natural selection and increasing the number of idiots on the road.

    

[Wingnut]

Well with the exception of my 1971 Vega GT (which rusted on the showroom floor and after one year had more plastic bondo in it than all the Kardashian's put together) I'd say yeah.  Give me an old land yacht any day.

[roamer_1]

Well with the exception of my 1971 Vega GT (which rusted on the showroom floor and after one year had more plastic bondo in it than all the Kardashian's put together) I'd say yeah.  Give me an old land yacht any day.

I built a Vega once... tubbed for 50s... 4.10s on a shortened corporate posi, Ground pounding 350 with an m22 rockcrusher...

Ran like a scalded dog.

[Wingnut]

I built a Vega once... tubbed for 50s... 4.10s on a shortened corporate posi, Ground pounding 350 with an m22 rockcrusher...

Ran like a scalded dog.

That frame was stronger than the sheet metal!.  The way the Cowl rusted I'm surprised the windshield didn't pop out on a spirited run from the torque twist.!

[roamer_1]

That frame was stronger than the sheet metal!.  The way the Cowl rusted I'm surprised the windshield didn't pop out on a spirited run from the torque twist.!

We didn't have rust up in here till after the 80s... 

[Gefn]

I don’t know about better, but a car from the 40s, 50s and 60s were sexier than todays cookie cutter car styles.


But I’m still waiting for my George Jetson flying car.

[DB]

It's not only the body damage, but God forbid one of the airbags should go off.  If the airbags go off, the replacement costs are so high that the insurance companies will simply treat many used cars as a write-off.

That happened to a relative of mine.  He paid $10k for a used car that wasn't that old, and then got into a fender-bender in the winter when he slid through a red light and hit the side of another car.  The collision was straight on, and was slow enough that the crumple zones in the front didn't start to deform, so all it really needed was a new nose clip, new headlights, and a new radiator (there was enough flexing that the radiator was cracked).  All eminently repairable/replaceable.  However, the driver's side airbag also went off, and since the replacement costs for those bags were about $4k, the insurance company wrote the car off, gave him a check for 75% of the value, and took the car.  The 75% recovery wasn't even enough to pay off the car loan he had taken out to buy the thing.

You have to go to war with the insurance company and not settle with their first offer. Went through that recently...

[DCPatriot]

I don’t know about better, but a car from the 40s, 50s and 60s were sexier than todays cookie cutter car styles.


But I’m still waiting for my George Jetson flying car.

 

[Free Vulcan]

I don’t know about better, but a car from the 40s, 50s and 60s were sexier than todays cookie cutter car styles.


But I’m still waiting for my George Jetson flying car.

Yeah it sucks. The CAFE standards don't even allow them to get creative anymore.

The biggest thing for me is you can't even hardly fix anything, and even sometimes do an oil change, without a garage full of diagnostic equipment and specialized tools.

My dad grew up in a junkyard, he got a bad oil filter one time and burnt out the motor of our '76 Nova. We swapped it out with another, throwing a chain over a low and large horizontal branch of our walnut tree to pull the old one out and drop the other in.

Literal shade tree mechanics.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

I generally a contrary position to the "those were the days" types... even back in the 70's you had Archie Bunker talking about his "old Lasalle". It's nothing new IMO.

For me the "old days" were the 1980's though. Old cars had a definite look but I'd rather not live in the past. Plus I am surrounded by people who love old cars. I like electronics on cars though.

Just my $.02.

[roamer_1]

I generally a contrary position to the "those were the days" types... even back in the 70's you had Archie Bunker talking about his "old Lasalle". It's nothing new IMO.

For me the "old days" were the 1980's though. Old cars had a definite look but I'd rather not live in the past. Plus I am surrounded by people who love old cars. I like electronics on cars though.

Just my $.02.

See, I like resto-mod. All the class of old iron with all the cool from new. Well, not ALL the cool. I still like carburetors better. Especially more than one.

[Wingnut]

Yeah it sucks. The CAFE standards don't even allow them to get creative anymore.

The biggest thing for me is you can't even hardly fix anything, and even sometimes do an oil change, without a garage full of diagnostic equipment and specialized tools.

My dad grew up in a junkyard, he got a bad oil filter one time and burnt out the motor of our '76 Nova. We swapped it out with another, throwing a chain over a low and large horizontal branch of our walnut tree to pull the old one out and drop the other in.

Literal shade tree mechanics.

Same here.  I've blowed up many engines in my yute. We would tow them home with a chain or rope and push them into the Backyard.  For $10 to $20 you could rent an engine hoist for the weekend if you didn't have a tree and a block and tackle rig. We would go to the local salvage yard in get a used engine (sans accessories like alts, PS pump and A/C comp) for 50 to 100 bucks.
My list of engine swaps:
1964 Buick GS (oil starvation)
1970 Chevelle 396 two times (Over reved the 5500 rpm redline spun a bearing and rebuilt it. 2nd time shot a connecting rod thru the block junk yard engine)
1987 GTA Trans Am. Overheated while stuck in 285 traffic Atlanta. (Hardest one of all and most expensive. So many wires and hoses we took a video before the extraction to remember where everything went.

Wouldn't trade the experience working with friends doing those swaps. 

[GtHawk]

Well with the exception of my 1971 Vega GT (which rusted on the showroom floor and after one year had more plastic bondo in it than all the Kardashian's put together) I'd say yeah.  Give me an old land yacht any day.

I had a 73 Vega Gt wagon and it was a blast but I only had it about six months before I bought my uncles 63 GranTurismo with the Avanti R1 driveline. Oh yeah the Vega, shortly after my sister took sole possession she burned up the engine, damn near tore the passenger door off and committed various other abuses to the thing. I was soooo glad that sucker was no longer attached to my wallet but I guess I would have never found out how long it would have lasted.
Old cars weren't built with crumple zones so if they didn't kill ya they could usually be fixed. I was hit in the drivers door by a car travelling 65 mph and was able to crawl out of my Studi, after a boatload of injections in my back I went back to my car and drove it home. Try that with one of the new cars. I did scrap out the car afterwards because the frame was bent and parts were already drying up since Studebaker was kaput for ten years at that point.

[Elderberry]

It's not only the body damage, but God forbid one of the airbags should go off.  If the airbags go off, the replacement costs are so high that the insurance companies will simply treat many used cars as a write-off.

That happened to a relative of mine.  He paid $10k for a used car that wasn't that old, and then got into a fender-bender in the winter when he slid through a red light and hit the side of another car.  The collision was straight on, and was slow enough that the crumple zones in the front didn't start to deform, so all it really needed was a new nose clip, new headlights, and a new radiator (there was enough flexing that the radiator was cracked).  All eminently repairable/replaceable.  However, the driver's side airbag also went off, and since the replacement costs for those bags were about $4k, the insurance company wrote the car off, gave him a check for 75% of the value, and took the car.  The 75% recovery wasn't even enough to pay off the car loan he had taken out to buy the thing.

My wife took my Sonoma in after an accident for the adjuster to look at the minor damage. It was still driveable. It was the third time I was hit driving home from work due to the mess made of IH-45 when they were putting in the NASA RD-1 bypass. They told her it was a total and they would take the truck. She told them in no uncertain terms that she would be in big trouble with me if she came home without the truck. Total just meant they wouldn't pay for any damage above 75% of the value left on that beat-up truck. We kept it, still insured by them, but didn't have any more damages to claim after that.

[Kamaji]

My wife took my Sonoma in after an accident for the adjuster to look at the minor damage. It was still driveable. It was the third time I was hit driving home from work due to the mess made of IH-45 when they were putting in the NASA RD-1 bypass. They told her it was a total and they would take the truck. She told them in no uncertain terms that she would be in big trouble with me if she came home without the truck. Total just meant they wouldn't pay for any damage above 75% of the value left on that beat-up truck. We kept it, still insured by them, but didn't have any more damages to claim after that.

Did any of the airbags go off?

Also, the rules for what an insurance company can do with a car that they treat as totalled vary from state to state.  We had an old Crown Vic that got clipped by someone trying to pass on the left on a double-yellow.  The damage was easy enough to pull out, and didn't even require repainting or touchup.  When it came to the insurance, they gave us the totalled value, less some amount for us to "buy" it back from them, and thereafter we only had accident coverage with them.  This was in New York.

I don't know all the details of what transpired with my relative, but it was my understanding that the amount of money the insurance company was offering simply wasn't enough to put the car back in useable condition - with the airbags replaced - so my relative chose to take the totalled amount and left the car with the insurance company.

To be quite honest, I would think that some enterprising auto insurance company would add a separate rider for airbag replacement that, for an additional premium, would take that factor out of the equation for determining whether the car was a write-off or not.

[Elderberry]

Did any of the airbags go off?

Nope. these were all very minor fender benders.

We bought a used corolla for our daughter and abt 5 yrs later I took it in for an airbag recall to discover they couldn't perform the recall cause it didn't have any. And we've been hounded ever since with recall notices.

[Kamaji]

Nope. these were all very minor fender benders.

We bought a used corolla for our daughter and abt 5 yrs later I took it in for an airbag recall to discover they couldn't perform the recall cause it didn't have any. And we've been hounded ever since with recall notices.

Was it not designed with them, or had they been removed?  If they were removed, then that would sound like a vehicle that had a salvage title.

[Elderberry]

I don’t know about better, but a car from the 40s, 50s and 60s were sexier than todays cookie cutter car styles.


But I’m still waiting for my George Jetson flying car.

Wait no More!

This Swedish company has built a fully electric 'flying car' it says anyone can fly

https://www.euronews.com/next/2022/03/03/this-swedish-company-has-built-a-fully-electric-flying-car-that-they-say-anyone-can-fly

Under US rules, this type of aircraft is not permitted to fly near airports or densely populated areas.

But the fully-electric Jetson One - weighing 190 lbs (86 kg) and having a flight time of 20 minutes on one charge - was built to comply with US regulations which don’t require a pilots licence to fly it.

What distinguishes their product, he says, is not the physical aircraft they’ve developed, but the highly-automated software system that makes Jetson One easy to fly even for a novice pilot.

"The most important innovation with the Jetson One is the flight computer and the flight control system," he said, adding that they can “put anyone in the seat and that person will be able to fly in five minutes".

The aircraft’s flight computer uses a Lidar sensor system to keep the pilot out of harm’s way and comes equipped with an auto-landing system.

"You just stop in the air, you put the throttle to zero and it lands," said Ternstrom.

[Elderberry]

Was it not designed with them, or had they been removed?  If they were removed, then that would sound like a vehicle that had a salvage title.

The scumbag that sold us the car had removed them. I knew he was a snake when we went to pick up the car, he wanted to be the one to take the title to the courthouse for the transfer.

[berdie]

I think the newer cars last longer. But they all look alike.

I think I've mentioned that I just sold a '66 Mustang. It had been sitting under my carport for over 20 years....never started.

The buyer and I exchanged emails so he could send pictures of the restoration. I got an email yesterday that he started the engine and let it run for a few minutes, but had a lot to do. He picked up the car last Friday! Either the car is by some miracle still solid...or this guy is one he!! of a mechanic.

So I guess my summation of the question is this. Older cars probably have more staying power overall. I can't in my wildest imagination think that a newer car with all of the computer stuff would crank at all after that period of time.

[Kamaji]

The scumbag that sold us the car had removed them. I knew he was a snake when we went to pick up the car, he wanted to be the one to take the title to the courthouse for the transfer.

That explains it.  Too bad you couldn't have put some duds in there when the recall notices came, and then had the dealer swap the duds out for new under the recall notice.

[DB]

I don't miss my old cars from the 70's and 80's... They took a while to warm up before you could drive without stuttering/dying and things constantly crapped out... I've had a number of Toyota's and the just keep going. Ford and Chrystler not so much...

[Fishrrman]

DC predicts:
"An inventor could 'rescue' the American public by re-introducing the 60's and 70's tech for automobiles."

That's what will happen after the Chinese take Taiwan and the supply of microchips dries up.

Having said that, the cars of today (and the last 30 years or so) have engines/drivetrains that last far far longer than the cars of the 50's, 60's and 70's.

I had a 1993 Acura Integra that went 300,000 miles before I sold it, and even then it was still burning hardly any oil at all between changes.

[Smokin Joe]

You have to go to war with the insurance company and not settle with their first offer. Went through that recently...

When my granddaughters were learning to drive, we had a small herd of little <$1000 cars we bought for them to drive. It took a while to teach them the merits of defensive driving in town, and the offender's insurance companies paid more than we had spent on each of the cars when they were totaled in minor fender benders that were the fault of other drivers. (The kids were okay).

[Smokin Joe]

Same here.  I've blowed up many engines in my yute. We would tow them home with a chain or rope and push them into the Backyard.  For $10 to $20 you could rent an engine hoist for the weekend if you didn't have a tree and a block and tackle rig. We would go to the local salvage yard in get a used engine (sans accessories like alts, PS pump and A/C comp) for 50 to 100 bucks.
My list of engine swaps:
1964 Buick GS (oil starvation)
1970 Chevelle 396 two times (Over reved the 5500 rpm redline spun a bearing and rebuilt it. 2nd time shot a connecting rod thru the block junk yard engine)
1987 GTA Trans Am. Overheated while stuck in 285 traffic Atlanta. (Hardest one of all and most expensive. So many wires and hoses we took a video before the extraction to remember where everything went.

Wouldn't trade the experience working with friends doing those swaps.

Some of my fondest memories are building engines with friends.

[Kamaji]

You have to go to war with the insurance company and not settle with their first offer. Went through that recently...

Absolutely.  Did that with my old Crown Vic, and ultimately got twice what their initial offer was.  Carfax and KBB were invaluable resources in that fight. 

[DefiantMassRINO]

Not in the early 80's.  You don't see too many 1985 Yugo's at classic car auctions or shows.

[roamer_1]

Some of my fondest memories are building engines with friends.

And beers. 

[Wingnut]

Some of my fondest memories are building engines with friends.

And beers. 

And music!

Amen!

[sneakypete]

The tipping point was sometime in the 80s...

90s rigs are going away - not because they are all done, but because they are way too complicated and expensive to restore.

Wiring and sensors... All of them going bad by now... brittle and breaking... And way, way too much to replace reasonably.

My 79 Chevy pickup is on its third rebuild since I have owned it. Stem to stern. I will probably be in it under $5k. Good for another 100k miles.

Try doing that with say, a 97...

@roamer_1

My 86 GMC 2500 Diesel 4x4 only has around 125,000 miles on it,and should be good for another 300,000. No fuel additive,no smog equipment. Has crazy torqure.

It will last a LOT longer than I do,especially since I use a $400 "beater" 4 cylinder Ranger pu for local drives to the post office,grocery store,haul trash to the trash to the dump,etc,etc,etc. These old 4 cylinder Rangers are all over the place,and mostly dirt cheap.

They are also a HELL of a lot easier to park in and back out of places like supermarket parking spaces. These extended cab long wheelbase trucks do NOT turn tight circles,but they are not all over the road when you are pulling a trailer with a car on it at 75 MPH,either.