Author Topic: Ukraine: Live Updates thread  (Read 155352 times)

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Offline libertybele

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Re: Ukraine: Live Updates thread
« Reply #9650 on: May 01, 2022, 06:44:02 pm »
Can't say that I blame him considering that Russian troops had been occupying Ukrainian territory for over four years.  Clearly, Russia wasn't following it.

Yet Zelenskyy just renewed the Strategic Partnership charter.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2022, 06:46:16 pm by libertybele »
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Online Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Ukraine: Live Updates thread
« Reply #9651 on: May 01, 2022, 06:44:16 pm »
Good God @Smokin Joe  ...... learn to handle the truth even when you don't like it.  At least give it a try.

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Ukraine: Live Updates thread
« Reply #9652 on: May 01, 2022, 06:44:30 pm »
Proof or is that just your feeling?

The invasion of Crimea, perhaps.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Ukraine: Live Updates thread
« Reply #9653 on: May 01, 2022, 06:46:08 pm »
The invasion of Crimea, perhaps.

Wasn't Minsk after the rape of Crimea?
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Online DB

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Re: Ukraine: Live Updates thread
« Reply #9654 on: May 01, 2022, 06:49:57 pm »
Good God @Smokin Joe  ...... learn to handle the truth even when you don't like it.  At least give it a try.

The irony is too much...

Offline bilo

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Re: Ukraine: Live Updates thread
« Reply #9655 on: May 01, 2022, 06:51:15 pm »
You can cast blame on @Right_in_Virginia but I was the one that posted.

You can sit and scoff at what I'm saying what I believe to be true. I don't believe Z is innocent in all of this mess.  Again, we'll see how things play out; it may be a year or years before the truth is revealed. I am certain that there is another side to this story; ugliness will once again rear her head.  The evilness of the world continues to prevail.

I can't help but scoff at people who will condemn someone with no evidence.

It might surprise you, but I would bet most people who support Ukraine in their fight to retain their freedom and save their nation don't care if Zelenskyy is a liberal, or Biden supporter. The issue at hand is to stop Russia's invasion and then force Russia out of Ukraine. After the war is done will come the time to investigate. Actually, at that point it will be pretty easy to attach conditions to the aid going to rebuilding Ukraine.

We have a rare opportunity to inflict serious harm on one of our principal adversaries and to give pause to our primary adversary (China) without putting our military in harms way. All we have to do is supply weapons and aid to Ukraine. Undermining that effort only helps our adversaries and weakens  the USA.
A stranger in a hostile foreign land I used to call home

Offline libertybele

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Re: Ukraine: Live Updates thread
« Reply #9656 on: May 01, 2022, 06:53:58 pm »
I can't help but scoff at people who will condemn someone with no evidence.

It might surprise you, but I would bet most people who support Ukraine in their fight to retain their freedom and save their nation don't care if Zelenskyy is a liberal, or Biden supporter. The issue at hand is to stop Russia's invasion and then force Russia out of Ukraine. After the war is done will come the time to investigate. Actually, at that point it will be pretty easy to attach conditions to the aid going to rebuilding Ukraine.

We have a rare opportunity to inflict serious harm on one of our principal adversaries and to give pause to our primary adversary (China) without putting our military in harms way. All we have to do is supply weapons and aid to Ukraine. Undermining that effort only helps our adversaries and weakens  the USA.

Gee, I don't know I see the issue at hand as the U.S.A. not getting dragged into fighting a war that isn't ours to fight.

It's not a matter of Z being a liberal; it's a matter of Z perhaps being involved politically with the U.S; perhaps inflicting damage within his own country and provoking Russia.

Investigating after the fact is sort of like signing a bill before reading the darn thing.  By supplying weapons and aid to Ukraine may very well draw us into a war that we shouldn't be in.  There's a reason why Joe is sending troops over to Poland and I fail to see where thousands of additional U.S. troops are need in Poland as well as additional troops in neighboring NATO countires to train a few people.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2022, 06:59:26 pm by libertybele »
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Ukraine: Live Updates thread
« Reply #9657 on: May 01, 2022, 06:59:16 pm »

Online Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine: Live Updates thread
« Reply #9658 on: May 01, 2022, 07:00:05 pm »
Yeah, right. Because we just KNOW ol' DImitry, there, is going to give us a completely unbiased view of things.  .  .  .
.  .  .  But keep on pimping Putin, there. It's good to have balance.

Another stupid Russian propaganda lie is that Ukrainian soldiers are using civilians as human shields, as if that would somehow stop Russian shelling.  It is clear by now that Russia has a certain eagerness for shelling civilians, so even if Ukraine was using civilians as human shields, Russia would shell them anyway.

If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline bilo

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Re: Ukraine: Live Updates thread
« Reply #9659 on: May 01, 2022, 07:00:17 pm »
Gee, I don't know I see the issue at hand as the U.S.A. not getting dragged into fighting a war that isn't ours to fight.

Investigate after the fact is sort of like signing a bill before reading the darn thing.

And who posting here has advocated for sending in our troops?

A stranger in a hostile foreign land I used to call home

Online Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine: Live Updates thread
« Reply #9660 on: May 01, 2022, 07:03:40 pm »
Can't say that I blame him considering that Russian troops had been occupying Ukrainian territory for over four years.  Clearly, Russia wasn't following it.
Yet Zelenskyy just renewed the Strategic Partnership charter.

Uh, what does the Strategic Partnership charter with the US have to do with the Minsk agreement with Russia?  I've seen liberals put up more logical arguments than this.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline libertybele

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Re: Ukraine: Live Updates thread
« Reply #9661 on: May 01, 2022, 07:04:03 pm »
And who posting here has advocated for sending in our troops?

I think you left out the part about Joe sending 1,000's of additional US troops to Poland and neighboring NATO countries.  Several 1,000 are needed to train Ukraine on equipment??
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline libertybele

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Re: Ukraine: Live Updates thread
« Reply #9662 on: May 01, 2022, 07:05:53 pm »
Yet Zelenskyy just renewed the Strategic Partnership charter.


Uh, what does the Strategic Partnership charter with the US have to do with the Minsk agreement with Russia?  I've seen liberals put up more logical arguments than this.

Somehow broken treaties on both sides enter into the picture.
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Online Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine: Live Updates thread
« Reply #9663 on: May 01, 2022, 07:08:21 pm »
Proof or is that just your feeling?

Proof.


War in Donbas

The war in Donbas[note 1] is an armed conflict in the Donbas region of Ukraine, part of the broader Russo-Ukrainian War. In March 2014, immediately following the Euromaidan protest movement and subsequent Revolution of Dignity, protests by pro-Russian, anti-government separatist groups took place in the Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts of Ukraine, collectively called the Donbas. These demonstrations began around the same time as Russia's annexation of Crimea, and were part of wider pro-Russian protests across southern and eastern Ukraine. Declaring the Donetsk and Luhansk People's Republics (DPR and LPR, respectively), armed Russian-backed separatist groups seized government buildings throughout the Donbas, leading to armed conflict with the Ukrainian government forces.


While the initial protests were largely native expressions of discontent with the new Ukrainian government, Russia took advantage of them to launch a coordinated political and military campaign against Ukraine.
  Russian citizens led the separatist movement in Donetsk from April until August 2014, and were supported by volunteers and materiel from Russia.  As the conflict escalated in May 2014, Russia employed a "hybrid approach", deploying a combination of disinformation, irregular fighters, regular Russian troops, and conventional military support to destabilize the Donbas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas


And we haven't even gotten to the Soviet-style 2018 election yet.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Ukraine: Live Updates thread
« Reply #9664 on: May 01, 2022, 07:08:47 pm »
I think you left out the part about Joe sending 1,000's of additional US troops to Poland and neighboring NATO countries.  Several 1,000 are needed to train Ukraine on equipment??

I'd say 1,000 is stingy for what they need to do.  Ukraine has been fighting with Soviet era equipment, and our stuff is a bit more complicated to use.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Ukraine: Live Updates thread
« Reply #9665 on: May 01, 2022, 07:09:28 pm »
Good God @Smokin Joe  ...... learn to handle the truth even when you don't like it.  At least give it a try.

Whose "TRUTH"?

"Pravda?"

I posted up thread Dimitry's CV.


Let's not be candy-assed about how the Russians treat those who have defied them. If they might have propaganda value (if they are prominent enough and can be turned and paraded as 'having seen the error of their ways'), they have a serious 'reeducation' ahead of them, and likely their families will be held hostage or killed during that process.
If not, a bullet awaits, sooner or later.

I have handled a lot of truth over the past year I didn't like, and I see more every day. I don't need to look as far as Ukraine to see a lot I know to be different than I am being told, and that truth alone is unsettling, but something I can deal with. Whether or not Zelensky is a saint, it was Ukraine that was invaded, and I hope they prevail at repelling the re-branded Soviet aggressors. (No, @sneakypete you are not the only one). What's more, I hope they hand the Russians their asses on the way back to Russia.

@libertybele The US routinely monitors troop movements and build-ups all over the world. It's why we have the NRO and others who keep an eye in the sky on such things, primarily, and the buildup of 100,000 troops and materiel along a country's border usually is indicative of a forthcoming strike. We did it during Desert Storm. Muster, organize, set up logistics and supply are all best done before an attack. We also monitor signals traffic around the world between units likely to be involved in hostilities, or even those that are involved, in order to sort out what they are up to. We have agencies for that, not just to monitor what ever cell hone traffic is going on here at home.

It doesn't take a tactical genius to figure out that when a country, with eyes on another country's mineral resources and industry, starts crowing about how downtrodden those allegedly sympathetic to being 'liberated' are in the country they have built up troops across the border from, that an attack is coming. If the prize is big enough, the aggressor just might plant people in the targeted nation to conspicuously whinge to any sympathetic ear about how badly they have been treated. We have communists doing the exact same thing all over America today. Such media campaigns often precede a raid or are released as justification for one as it unfolds.

(Kinda like the newspaper hit pieces on the Branch Davidians, accusing them of everything from child molestation to Meth labs as the ATF attacked their commune). 

It's propaganda 101, used to muddy the waters during the critical first 48 hours of the assault.

The reality, the indisputable fact, is that one country's sovereign borders have been violated, crossed by troops, and their people have been killed, their cities shelled and bombed, their territory occupied.

Claims 'justifying' that aggression are usually just so much bullshit, trying to deflect from the death and destruction wreaked upon those being invaded, and trying to make the aggressor out to be a shining liberator.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine: Live Updates thread
« Reply #9666 on: May 01, 2022, 07:10:22 pm »
The irony is too much...

On steroids.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline libertybele

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Re: Ukraine: Live Updates thread
« Reply #9667 on: May 01, 2022, 07:11:43 pm »
I'd say 1,000 is stingy for what they need to do.  Ukraine has been fighting with Soviet era equipment, and our stuff is a bit more complicated to use.

I mentioned thousands -- plural.  3,000 were sent to Poland, thousands more are planned to go to neighboring NATO countries.
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Ukraine: Live Updates thread
« Reply #9668 on: May 01, 2022, 07:13:55 pm »
I can't help but scoff at people who will condemn someone with no evidence.

It might surprise you, but I would bet most people who support Ukraine in their fight to retain their freedom and save their nation don't care if Zelenskyy is a liberal, or Biden supporter. The issue at hand is to stop Russia's invasion and then force Russia out of Ukraine. After the war is done will come the time to investigate. Actually, at that point it will be pretty easy to attach conditions to the aid going to rebuilding Ukraine.

We have a rare opportunity to inflict serious harm on one of our principal adversaries and to give pause to our primary adversary (China) without putting our military in harms way. All we have to do is supply weapons and aid to Ukraine. Undermining that effort only helps our adversaries and weakens  the USA.
Actually, we aren't inflicting the harm, Ukrainians are. (even better).

Any time Russia wants the pain to stop, all they have to do is withdraw (GTFO).
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Ukraine: Live Updates thread
« Reply #9669 on: May 01, 2022, 07:17:09 pm »
Actually, we aren't inflicting the harm, Ukrainians are. (even better).

Any time Russia wants the pain to stop, all they have to do is withdraw (GTFO).


:thumbsup:

Offline libertybele

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Re: Ukraine: Live Updates thread
« Reply #9670 on: May 01, 2022, 07:18:10 pm »
Proof.


War in Donbas

The war in Donbas[note 1] is an armed conflict in the Donbas region of Ukraine, part of the broader Russo-Ukrainian War. In March 2014, immediately following the Euromaidan protest movement and subsequent Revolution of Dignity, protests by pro-Russian, anti-government separatist groups took place in the Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts of Ukraine, collectively called the Donbas. These demonstrations began around the same time as Russia's annexation of Crimea, and were part of wider pro-Russian protests across southern and eastern Ukraine. Declaring the Donetsk and Luhansk People's Republics (DPR and LPR, respectively), armed Russian-backed separatist groups seized government buildings throughout the Donbas, leading to armed conflict with the Ukrainian government forces.


While the initial protests were largely native expressions of discontent with the new Ukrainian government, Russia took advantage of them to launch a coordinated political and military campaign against Ukraine.
  Russian citizens led the separatist movement in Donetsk from April until August 2014, and were supported by volunteers and materiel from Russia.  As the conflict escalated in May 2014, Russia employed a "hybrid approach", deploying a combination of disinformation, irregular fighters, regular Russian troops, and conventional military support to destabilize the Donbas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas


And we haven't even gotten to the Soviet-style 2018 election yet.

Let's see here ... Zelenskyy is perfectly innocent, Joe & Company have no interest in this mess, and everything will be just wonderful once Putin is destroyed and the U.S. will then be back to its normal self.  Got it.

Perhaps I could interest you in a V-8? 



Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Online Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine: Live Updates thread
« Reply #9671 on: May 01, 2022, 07:18:40 pm »
I can't help but scoff at people who will condemn someone with no evidence.

It might surprise you, but I would bet most people who support Ukraine in their fight to retain their freedom and save their nation don't care if Zelenskyy is a liberal, or Biden supporter. The issue at hand is to stop Russia's invasion and then force Russia out of Ukraine. After the war is done will come the time to investigate. Actually, at that point it will be pretty easy to attach conditions to the aid going to rebuilding Ukraine.

We have a rare opportunity to inflict serious harm on one of our principal adversaries and to give pause to our primary adversary (China) without putting our military in harms way. All we have to do is supply weapons and aid to Ukraine. Undermining that effort only helps our adversaries and weakens  the USA.

Word.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Ukraine: Live Updates thread
« Reply #9672 on: May 01, 2022, 07:19:31 pm »
I mentioned thousands -- plural.  3,000 were sent to Poland, thousands more are planned to go to neighboring NATO countries.

There are 10's of thousands of Ukrainian troops to train.  I hope this means they aren't going to half-azz the training.  To send troops into battle with insufficient training is to throw their lives away.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline Kamaji

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Re: Ukraine: Live Updates thread
« Reply #9673 on: May 01, 2022, 07:19:43 pm »
Let's see here ... Zelenskyy is perfectly innocent, Joe & Company have no interest in this mess, and everything will be just wonderful once Putin is destroyed and the U.S. will then be back to its normal self.  Got it.

Perhaps I could interest you in a V-8? 






Talk about putting words into someone else's mouth.

Good grief.

Online Hoodat

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Re: Ukraine: Live Updates thread
« Reply #9674 on: May 01, 2022, 07:20:45 pm »
Wasn't Minsk after the rape of Crimea?

The initial invasion?  Yes.  The continued occupation, no.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-