Eye-opening poll shows more than 40% of Biden voters and half of Trump voters agree its time to spli

[goatprairie]

Hilarious.  Not a student of history I note.

You are describing every country that ever existed, from the Roman Empire to Persia, when you say a country ending in failure was never a country.

Try once again.

No, I've never read any history books. Not one...ever.  I'm not even going to count Shelby Foote's three volume history I finished this summer. Or  Chernow's Grant bio I read earlier in the year. Nope, never read anything about the CW.

[goatprairie]

What actually happened was an unconstitutional use of armed forces against a perfectly legal country.

What was unconstitutional about it? You mean trying to secede with no constitutional mechanism to do so?
Give me a break. But I'm not going down that road again, so this is my last comment on this thread.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

No, I've never read any history books. Not one...ever.  I'm not even going to count Shelby Foote's three volume history I finished this summer. Or  Chernow's Grant bio I read earlier in the year. Nope, never read anything about the CW.

Reading it and understanding what you read appear to be divergent in your world, then.  Students of history try to understand.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

What was unconstitutional about it? You mean trying to secede with no constitutional mechanism to do so?
Give me a break. But I'm not going down that road again, so this is my last comment on this thread.

"Give me a break." = "C'mon, man".

[Bigun]

What was unconstitutional about it? You mean trying to secede with no constitutional mechanism to do so?
Give me a break. But I'm not going down that road again, so this is my last comment on this thread.

Try everything!

Amendment IX:

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.



Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Try everything!

Amendment IX:

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.



Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Some people do not understand our history well enough to realize that our foundation is a nation of states, not states for a nation.

It is fundamental that states retain their sovereignty for this country to succeed under the Constitution upon which it was founded.  That Constitution was exclusively signed into being by Signers representing the states, as there was no federal entity to the Compact.

[libertybele]

 I'm thinking succession will likely happen on a much larger scale; similar to colonists breaking away from Britain, with the obvious difference of course, we already have a Constitution and land.  We need to demand that the Constitution be followed and the states that don't want to adhere to our Constitution, will be left out. Eventually they will fall in line.

 As the Declaration of Independence states:

When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another ....

I believe we are reaching that point ... it may become necessary.

[Bigun]

Some people do not understand our history well enough to realize that our foundation is a nation of states, not states for a nation.

It is fundamental that states retain their sovereignty for this country to succeed under the Constitution upon which it was founded.  That Constitution was exclusively signed into being by Signers representing the states, as there was no federal entity to the Compact.

Right! and all one needs do is to see who the King of England made peace with via the Treaty of Paris, 1783.

In the Name of the most Holy & undivided Trinity.

It having pleased the Divine Providence to dispose the Hearts of the most Serene and most Potent Prince George the Third, by the Grace of God, King of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, Defender of the Faith, Duke of Brunswick and Lunebourg, Arch- Treasurer and Prince Elector of the Holy Roman Empire etc.. and of the United States of America, to forget all past Misunderstandings and Differences that have unhappily interrupted the good Correspondence and Friendship which they mutually wish to restore; and to establish such a beneficial and satisfactory Intercourse between the two countries upon the ground of reciprocal Advantages and mutual Convenience as may promote and secure to both perpetual Peace and Harmony; and having for this desirable End already laid the Foundation of Peace & Reconciliation by the Provisional Articles signed at Paris on the 30th of November 1782, by the Commissioners empowered on each Part, which Articles were agreed to be inserted in and constitute the Treaty of Peace proposed to be concluded between the Crown of Great Britain and the said United States, but which Treaty was not to be concluded until Terms of Peace should be agreed upon between Great Britain & France, and his Britannic Majesty should be ready to conclude such Treaty accordingly: and the treaty between Great Britain & France having since been concluded, his Britannic Majesty & the United States of America, in Order to carry into full Effect the Provisional Articles above mentioned, according to the Tenor thereof, have constituted & appointed, that is to say his Britannic Majesty on his Part, David Hartley, Esqr., Member of the Parliament of Great Britain, and the said United States on their Part, - stop point - John Adams, Esqr., late a Commissioner of the United States of America at the Court of Versailles, late Delegate in Congress from the State of Massachusetts, and Chief Justice of the said State, and Minister Plenipotentiary of the said United States to their High Mightinesses the States General of the United Netherlands; - stop point - Benjamin Franklin, Esqr., late Delegate in Congress from the State of Pennsylvania, President of the Convention of the said State, and Minister Plenipotentiary from the United States of America at the Court of Versailles; John Jay, Esqr., late President of Congress and Chief Justice of the state of New York, and Minister Plenipotentiary from the said United States at the Court of Madrid; to be Plenipotentiaries for the concluding and signing the Present Definitive Treaty; who after having reciprocally communicated their respective full Powers have agreed upon and confirmed the following Articles.

Article 1st:

His Brittanic Majesty acknowledges the said United States, viz., New Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia, to be free sovereign and Independent States; that he treats with them as such, and for himself his Heirs & Successors, relinquishes all claims to the Government, Propriety, and Territorial Rights of the same and every Part thereof.

https://www.ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?flash=false&doc=6&page=transcript

[Cyber Liberty]

Does anyone think the leftist in the rat half would not make it their mission to infiltrate and transform the other free half?

Commies cannot live In peace with their non commie neighbors. As long as there was a free alternative nearby to compete with them they would never really have control of their own nation.

The fight must be won or lost here in this country, in its entirety, now.

The Rats in the Commie Zones will fight like hell to conquer the Free States, using weapons up to and including Nukes and F15s.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

The Rats in the Commie Zones will fight like hell to conquer the Free States, using weapons up to and including Nukes and F15s.

The way they are trying to accomplish that is by federalizing all elections and laws.  This is because blue states will fail miserably with their social welfare programs unless they are propped up by the red states.

[corbe]

    When you Create a GOV, raise an Army, Start your own GD Bank that prints it's own $$$$, I'd say you have an entity separate from the US.

[Fishrrman]

A question I've asked repeatedly in this forum and will ask again:

Is it time for a "New Continental Congress" yet...?

[libertybele]

A question I've asked repeatedly in this forum and will ask again:

Is it time for a "New Continental Congress" yet...?

@Fishrrman -- what are the parameters of a 'New Continental Congress'??  What's the difference between a Continental Congress and a Convention of States??

[libertybele]

    When you Create a GOV, raise an Army, Start your own GD Bank that prints it's own $$$$, I'd say you have an entity separate from the US.

 Printing $$ that IS backed by gold rather than going by fiat currency is needed.

[Bigun]

A question I've asked repeatedly in this forum and will ask again:

Is it time for a "New Continental Congress" yet...?

I will answer you directly @Fishrrman and the answer is a firm NO.  IMHO far too many of us are completely ignorant of history for that to result in anything but disaster now.

At the establishment of our constitutions, the judiciary bodies were supposed to be the most helpless and harmless members of the government. Experience, however, soon showed in what way they were to become the most dangerous; that the insufficiency of the means provided for their removal gave them a freehold and irresponsibility in office; that their decisions, seeming to concern individual suitors only, pass silent and unheeded by the public at large; that these decisions, nevertheless, become law by precedent, sapping, by little and little, the foundations of the constitution, and working its change by construction, before any one has perceived that that invisible and helpless worm has been busily employed in consuming its substance. In truth, man is not made to be trusted for life, if secured against all liability to account.

Thomas Jefferson
letter to Monsieur A. Coray — 1823

Mr. Jefferson has proven exceedingly precedent!

[IsailedawayfromFR]

I will answer you directly @Fishrrman and the answer is a firm NO.  IMHO far too many of us are completely ignorant of history for that to result in anything but disaster now.


Thomas Jefferson
letter to Monsieur A. Coray — 1823

Mr. Jefferson has proven exceedingly precedent!

The truth

[jafo2010]

LibertyBelle...
     I don't think it's going to be a civil separation but rather the masses rising up...it's getting to the point that people aren't going to have any other choice.  It will be a matter of survival and retaining our Constitutional rights.

I have a degree in history,  as well as others, and I say we are long overdue for a 2nd Continental Congress.  Why you ask?  For many reasons.  We have moved dramatically away from our Constitution in many regards.  For example, only men who were land owners could vote at the start of this nation.  White men.  Now we have states allowing illegal aliens to vote in local elections.  That is a travesty, and a total disregard to the Constitution.

I say we need a Continental Congress for strengthening the requirements of who can run for POTUS and VP.  There is no way that Biden should have been allowed to run for POTUS.  He is marginally functional.  And being a birther, I do not believe that Obama was born in the USA.   I have seen the analysis of his birth certificate, and it sounded very credible to me.  There is just no way I would EVER vote for someone age 35 to be POTUS.  No way I would vote for someone like a Jimmy Carter who served one term as Governor of Georgia.  There has to be a broader minimum requirement to be POTUS.

Next, budgets.  I think it should be mandatory that a balanced budget is required with one sole exception, during a time of war, declared war by Congress.  Last one was WWII.

Regarding retirement, we have to get serious about protecting that money.  Congress should never be allowed to touch that money.  People on this board think what is being done is perfectly fine, and it is NOT!!!  Also time to open a person's retirement to the market.  At least 20% and perhaps up to 50%, and that money cannot be withdrawn until they reach FRA.  Opening it to the market solves the problem of sustainability.  Right now, Social Security gets about a 1% return.  Just getting a 6% return would make a huge difference.

TERM LIMITS.  If we are ever to solve the problems of a do nothing Congress, the only solution I see is TERM LIMITS.  The day of the statesman is long gone.  What we have now are people lining their pockets and the people are their last concern.  End the golden parachute for those elected.  Get in, serve, and get out.  You want to invest in a 401k like everyone else fine, but no more full salary pensions with all the increases that Congress votes for itself.  That is bullshit!  Five years and a full pension for life?  I don't think so!!

And I am sure I could think of a dozen other items that needed to be addressed.  One more would be national referendum.  Starting with abortion.  Abortion was made legal by seven men on the Supreme Court, not a one of them voted into that office.  I know that opinion is not the majority opinion of folks in America.  For national issues like abortion, it should be decided BY THE PEOPLE, damn it!!!  Not by seven lying POSs on the Supreme Court!

And last but not least, cut back the Supreme Court's role.  Too much power, and again, these maggots are not elected to anything.  I do not believe they should have the ability to undo legislation passed by Congress.

[jafo2010]

And by the way, to the very subject of this thread.  We will never divide until the people in the USA are starving to death.  And with Just in Time everything, that could easily happen after two months of zero production.  It could well end up being like the movie The Road.  no joke!

[Hoodat]

It lasted four years. Lincoln never considered the CSA a separate country.

Yet the people of the CSA did.  Go figure.  They had their own President, their own Legislature, their own Judiciary, their own military, their own ambassadors, their own currency, their own . . .

[catfish1957]

Yet the people of the CSA did.  Go figure.  They had their own President, their own Legislature, their own Judiciary, their own military, their own ambassadors, their own currency, their own . . . (mindset and culture)

And 150+ years later, there is still latent resentment.  Even my relatives in private remarked that i married a "Yankee"

We had July 4th family get together in '94, when Gettysburg aired.  Needless to say, much was said about it.  Wife told me she felt like a white person at black gathering after Roots aired.

[Bigun]

I have a degree in history,  as well as others, and I say we are long overdue for a 2nd Continental Congress.  Why you ask?  For many reasons.  We have moved dramatically away from our Constitution in many regards.  For example, only men who were land owners could vote at the start of this nation.  White men.  Now we have states allowing illegal aliens to vote in local elections.  That is a travesty, and a total disregard to the Constitution.

I say we need a Continental Congress for strengthening the requirements of who can run for POTUS and VP.  There is no way that Biden should have been allowed to run for POTUS.  He is marginally functional.  And being a birther, I do not believe that Obama was born in the USA.   I have seen the analysis of his birth certificate, and it sounded very credible to me.  There is just no way I would EVER vote for someone age 35 to be POTUS.  No way I would vote for someone like a Jimmy Carter who served one term as Governor of Georgia.  There has to be a broader minimum requirement to be POTUS.

Next, budgets.  I think it should be mandatory that a balanced budget is required with one sole exception, during a time of war, declared war by Congress.  Last one was WWII.

Regarding retirement, we have to get serious about protecting that money.  Congress should never be allowed to touch that money.  People on this board think what is being done is perfectly fine, and it is NOT!!!  Also time to open a person's retirement to the market.  At least 20% and perhaps up to 50%, and that money cannot be withdrawn until they reach FRA.  Opening it to the market solves the problem of sustainability.  Right now, Social Security gets about a 1% return.  Just getting a 6% return would make a huge difference.

TERM LIMITS.  If we are ever to solve the problems of a do nothing Congress, the only solution I see is TERM LIMITS.  The day of the statesman is long gone.  What we have now are people lining their pockets and the people are their last concern.  End the golden parachute for those elected.  Get in, serve, and get out.  You want to invest in a 401k like everyone else fine, but no more full salary pensions with all the increases that Congress votes for itself.  That is bullshit!  Five years and a full pension for life?  I don't think so!!

And I am sure I could think of a dozen other items that needed to be addressed.  One more would be national referendum.  Starting with abortion.  Abortion was made legal by seven men on the Supreme Court, not a one of them voted into that office.  I know that opinion is not the majority opinion of folks in America.  For national issues like abortion, it should be decided BY THE PEOPLE, damn it!!!  Not by seven lying POSs on the Supreme Court!

And last but not least, cut back the Supreme Court's role.  Too much power, and again, these maggots are not elected to anything.  I do not believe they should have the ability to undo legislation passed by Congress.

With respect, I'm going to strongly disagree with you on this @jafo2010   I'm convinced that the result of any such effort these days would not be to your liking or mine.

Further, I do not believe that there is anything wrong with our constitution as it currently exists.  What IS wrong, as I have alluded to above, is the absolute chicanery of the courts and that needs to be addressed by the methods already provided in the constitution.

[libertasbella]

With all the migrants coming in, I think that presents an enormous challenge for the red states.  IMO they are NOT citizens -- send them the heL7 back!

The leftist remainder of the country will be overjoyed to begin their independence with such a potent boon to their economy.

[Cyber Liberty]

The leftist remainder of the country will be overjoyed to begin their independence with such a potent boon to their economy.

I can see the point you are making, because it would be true...at first, but the socialism will eventually lay their economy to waste.  OTOH, they will use the military to courageously murder the Red Staters in order to keep them in the "union."  It's the "principle" of the thing, and they'll claim the right to do so because of all the lefties "stuck behind enemy lines" in the free states.

If this sounds familiar, it's how the Russians rationalized the invasion of the former satellite countries.  They "Russianized" the countries over decades of occupation by shipping in Russian citizens, then claimed it was to protect their Nationals.

[Bigun]

I can see the point you are making, because it would be true...at first, but the socialism will eventually lay their economy to waste.  OTOH, they will use the military to courageously murder the Red Staters in order to keep them in the "union."  It's the "principle" of the thing, and they'll claim the right to do so because of all the lefties "stuck behind enemy lines" in the free states.

If this sounds familiar, it's how the Russians rationalized the invasion of the former satellite countries.  They "Russianized" the countries over decades of occupation by shipping in Russian citizens, then claimed it was to protect their Nationals.

[Fishrrman]

A number of folks replying to my call for a new "Continental Congress" seem to think there is no difference between it and an Article V Convention.

The differences are stark.
That is why I DO NOT wish to see an Article V Convention now.
It can no longer "fix" things.

It's time for a complete re-evaluation of the DC government: whether it is "restorable", and if not, what's to be done instead.

The traditional-freedom states can't "go it alone".
Even Texas cannot, despite the delusions of some members here.
It would be "The Alamo" all over again, only this time with the DC/fed/communist government in place of Santa Anna.

Thus, the states must first send delegates to a Continental Congress to begin deliberations on the future. And then take coordinated actions on getting there.