Author Topic: Surprising number of EV owners switch back to gas power, study says  (Read 7263 times)

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Offline Elderberry

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Re: Surprising number of EV owners switch back to gas power, study says
« Reply #50 on: May 20, 2021, 02:56:32 pm »
I see what you did there.

What? I can't have hopes and dreams?

Online corbe

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Re: Surprising number of EV owners switch back to gas power, study says
« Reply #51 on: May 20, 2021, 07:31:04 pm »
   Until ACME gets involved, I'm unconvinced.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Huf-7dZ8Rts
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Offline Elderberry

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Re: Surprising number of EV owners switch back to gas power, study says
« Reply #52 on: May 20, 2021, 08:31:54 pm »

BassWrangler

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Re: Surprising number of EV owners switch back to gas power, study says
« Reply #53 on: May 21, 2021, 03:12:14 pm »
What? I can't have hopes and dreams?


Well, it may have been in jest, but I still think this would be an improvement. The internal combustion engine is a Rube Goldberg contraption. It's parts wear out, it's heavy, and has poor efficiency. The electric motor is a beautifully simple device. That's the main benefit of the electric car. If they could ditch the lithium batteries and replace with a gas-powered fuel cell, that would provide us with a vehicle with all the benefits.

Of course, the climate alarmists wouldn't be happy, but who cares what they think.

Offline DB

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Re: Surprising number of EV owners switch back to gas power, study says
« Reply #54 on: May 21, 2021, 05:39:58 pm »
Well, it may have been in jest, but I still think this would be an improvement. The internal combustion engine is a Rube Goldberg contraption. It's parts wear out, it's heavy, and has poor efficiency. The electric motor is a beautifully simple device. That's the main benefit of the electric car. If they could ditch the lithium batteries and replace with a gas-powered fuel cell, that would provide us with a vehicle with all the benefits.

Of course, the climate alarmists wouldn't be happy, but who cares what they think.

And high torque at zero RPM. Don't need a clutch, torque converter or multiple gear ratios. The drive train is dramatically simpler. In time it will likely be a motor in the wheel hub with no other mechanical drive train at all.

BassWrangler

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Re: Surprising number of EV owners switch back to gas power, study says
« Reply #55 on: May 21, 2021, 05:43:00 pm »
And high torque at zero RPM. Don't need a clutch, torque converter or multiple gear ratios. The drive train is dramatically simpler. In time it will likely be a motor in the wheel hub with no other mechanical drive train at all.

I always thought that Tesla was going to go with the motors in the wheel hubs - to give the ultimate in traction control. But it seems there's a lot of efficiency lost with that approach. My Model 3 is the "Dual Motor" variant, but the two motors are actually significantly different. One of them is the higher efficiency one that uses permanent magnets, and the other is something different. Apparently most of the time just the high efficiency one runs.

There's a lot of info online about the Tesla motors it if you're interested.

Offline Elderberry

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Re: Surprising number of EV owners switch back to gas power, study says
« Reply #56 on: May 21, 2021, 05:54:53 pm »
Tesla Model 3's motor - The Brilliant Engineering behind it

Lesics Dec 18, 2020

The engineers of Tesla motor's shocked everyone when they abandoned the versatile induction motor in Model 3 cars. They used a totally different motor called IPM-SynRM. Let's understand why the Tesla engineers made this crucial design change.

We thank EMWorks for their FEA support. To know more about this powerful electromagnetic simulation software checkout : https://www.emworks.com/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esUb7Zy5Oio

BassWrangler

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Re: Surprising number of EV owners switch back to gas power, study says
« Reply #57 on: May 21, 2021, 10:27:26 pm »
Great video, @Elderberry . Thanks for posting that.

Offline Elderberry

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Re: Surprising number of EV owners switch back to gas power, study says
« Reply #58 on: May 24, 2021, 12:48:07 pm »
@BassWrangler        Check out our new Member, @jaymaron 's site:

http://www.jaymaron.com/vehicle.html

Electric vehicles
Dr. Jay Maron

Electric vehicles comprehensively outperform gasoline vehicles. They're more powerful, cheaper, simpler, quieter, and flexible. Gasoline vehicles come with baggage like gears, powertrains, combustion, flywheels, mufflers, etc., none of which are present in electric vehicles.



The challenge is range. Battery energy is easily enough to cross cities but not enough for long-distance freeway driving.

BatteryEnergy ∼ Range * Speed2 * DragArea

For a typical electric car driving at city speed,

Car speed          =  V                  = 20     meters/second
Air density        =  D                  =  1.22 kg/meter3
Air drag area      =  K                  =  1.5  meters2
Air drag force     =  F  =  ½ K D V2     =366    Newtons
Air drag power     =  P  =  ½ K D V3     = 7.3  kWatts
Battery energy     =  E  =  F X          =100    MJoules
Range              =  X  =  E/(½ K D V2) =272    km


An electric generator can extend range. Generators have poor power/mass but for ground vehicles, mass isn't a problem. If we equip electric vehicles with generators,
             Speed  Generator   Generator  Generator
              m/s   power (kW)  cost ($)   mass (kg)

Kick scooter   10       .25         25         1
Bike           15      1.0         100         5
Trike          20      4           400        20
Compact car    30     16          1600        80
Mid-sized car  30     25          2500       125


BassWrangler

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Re: Surprising number of EV owners switch back to gas power, study says
« Reply #59 on: May 24, 2021, 12:49:39 pm »
@BassWrangler        Check out our new Member, @jaymaron 's site:

https://www.jaymaron.com/vehicle.html

Electric vehicles
Dr. Jay Maron

Electric vehicles comprehensively outperform gasoline vehicles. They're more powerful, cheaper, simpler, quieter, and flexible. Gasoline vehicles come with baggage like gears, powertrains, combustion, flywheels, mufflers, etc., none of which are present in electric vehicles.



The challenge is range. Battery energy is easily enough to cross cities but not enough for long-distance freeway driving.

BatteryEnergy ∼ Range * Speed2 * DragArea

For a typical electric car driving at city speed,

Car speed          =  V                  = 20     meters/second
Air density        =  D                  =  1.22 kg/meter3
Air drag area      =  K                  =  1.5  meters2
Air drag force     =  F  =  ½ K D V2     =366    Newtons
Air drag power     =  P  =  ½ K D V3     = 7.3  kWatts
Battery energy     =  E  =  F X          =100    MJoules
Range              =  X  =  E/(½ K D V2) =272    km


An electric generator can extend range. Generators have poor power/mass but for ground vehicles, mass isn't a problem. If we equip electric vehicles with generators,
             Speed  Generator   Generator  Generator
              m/s   power (kW)  cost ($)   mass (kg)

Kick scooter   10       .25         25         1
Bike           15      1.0         100         5
Trike          20      4           400        20
Compact car    30     16          1600        80
Mid-sized car  30     25          2500       125



Thanks, will check it out.

Online Hoodat

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Re: Surprising number of EV owners switch back to gas power, study says
« Reply #60 on: May 24, 2021, 01:01:02 pm »
@BassWrangler        Check out our new Member, @jaymaron 's site:

https://www.jaymaron.com/vehicle.html

Electric vehicles
Dr. Jay Maron

Electric vehicles comprehensively outperform gasoline vehicles. They're more powerful, cheaper, simpler, quieter, and flexible. Gasoline vehicles come with baggage like gears, powertrains, combustion, flywheels, mufflers, etc., none of which are present in electric vehicles.


I love anyone who uses the metric system to explain physics, especially considering that the English unit for mass (slugs) is never used in any equations.
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BassWrangler

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Re: Surprising number of EV owners switch back to gas power, study says
« Reply #61 on: May 24, 2021, 05:32:44 pm »
I love anyone who uses the metric system to explain physics, especially considering that the English unit for mass (slugs) is never used in any equations.

I don't know anyone in science or engineering that uses the imperial system for their work. The metric system is pretty much ubiquitous, because it actually makes sense and doesn't seem like something invented on a dare.

Online Hoodat

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Re: Surprising number of EV owners switch back to gas power, study says
« Reply #62 on: May 24, 2021, 05:37:30 pm »
Au contraire, mon frere.  Always dealing with BTUs, lb/ft3, hp, inH2O, and bbls.  Not by choice though.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2021, 05:38:22 pm by Hoodat »
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

BassWrangler

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Re: Surprising number of EV owners switch back to gas power, study says
« Reply #63 on: May 24, 2021, 09:21:24 pm »
Au contraire, mon frere.  Always dealing with BTUs, lb/ft3, hp, inH2O, and bbls.  Not by choice though.

Is that the energy industry?

Online Hoodat

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Re: Surprising number of EV owners switch back to gas power, study says
« Reply #64 on: May 24, 2021, 11:44:51 pm »
Is that the energy industry?

Oil, as well as refining and chemicals.  Process oriented.  Not design.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline DB

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Re: Surprising number of EV owners switch back to gas power, study says
« Reply #65 on: May 25, 2021, 12:39:25 am »
I love anyone who uses the metric system to explain physics, especially considering that the English unit for mass (slugs) is never used in any equations.

About a year ago I finally moved to metric dimensions for HDI PCB layout and housing design. Prior everything I did was in inches/mils with the vast majority of component specifications being in millimeters and having to be converted. All the mechanical hardware (screws/washers/etc.) I use are also metric now with the exception of the customer mounting interfaces still being in inches and English (#6-32 for example) for mounting hole sizes.

Offline thackney

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Re: Surprising number of EV owners switch back to gas power, study says
« Reply #66 on: May 25, 2021, 07:20:29 am »
I don't know anyone in science or engineering that uses the imperial system for their work. The metric system is pretty much ubiquitous, because it actually makes sense and doesn't seem like something invented on a dare.

Metric vs Imperial Units: How NASA lost a 327 Million Dollar Mission to Mars
https://everydayastronaut.com/mars-climate-orbiter/
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Offline thackney

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Re: Surprising number of EV owners switch back to gas power, study says
« Reply #67 on: May 25, 2021, 07:21:55 am »
I don't know anyone in science or engineering that uses the imperial system for their work. The metric system is pretty much ubiquitous, because it actually makes sense and doesn't seem like something invented on a dare.

All of our design drawings are dimensioning in imperial units.
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Online Lando Lincoln

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Re: Surprising number of EV owners switch back to gas power, study says
« Reply #68 on: May 25, 2021, 07:38:08 am »
:bkmk:
There are some among us who live in rooms of experience we can never enter.
John Steinbeck

BassWrangler

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Re: Surprising number of EV owners switch back to gas power, study says
« Reply #69 on: May 25, 2021, 02:09:22 pm »
Oil, as well as refining and chemicals.  Process oriented.  Not design.

OK, interesting, I didn't know that. I know some PCB designers and machinists work in mils too, so my comment was overly broad.

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: Surprising number of EV owners switch back to gas power, study says
« Reply #70 on: June 02, 2021, 02:31:04 pm »
Why isn't time measure in metric? From what I figure the only thing that could not be in metric is days/year.

Online corbe

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Re: Surprising number of EV owners switch back to gas power, study says
« Reply #71 on: June 02, 2021, 02:42:09 pm »
   Seconds, minutes and hours are based on the joints of the fingers of your hand~60/12 or so I've heard @Weird Tolkienish Figure
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Offline Elderberry

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Re: Surprising number of EV owners switch back to gas power, study says
« Reply #72 on: June 02, 2021, 05:57:23 pm »
   Seconds, minutes and hours are based on the joints of the fingers of your hand~60/12 or so I've heard @Weird Tolkienish Figure

How 10 Fingers Became 12 Hours

episode number ED-191

https://www.earthdate.org/how-10-fingers-became-12-hours

We have 10 fingers, so we’ve based our common counting systems on 10. Why then, do we divide the day into 12 hours and the hour into 60 minutes?

To understand, we need to go back 3000 years. Babylonians also used their hands to count, but wanting to count higher than 10, they devised a different system.

They used their thumb to count the three segments of their four fingers to get 12. They marked that 12 by raising a finger on the other hand. Twelve times five fingers is 60.

2500 years ago, when people started using sundials, it seemed only natural to divide the day in 12.

Egyptian astronomers then found 12 stars to mark the passing of time in the night sky, making a 24-hour cycle.

Early Greek mathematicians realized they could divide a circle into six equilateral triangles like a sliced pizza.

Around 2200 years ago, the first Greek astronomer to describe a round Earth wanted a system to navigate it. He took that 6-part circle and divided each part by 60 to get 360 degrees.

Another Greek divided those degrees further, into 60 minute parts, and those into 60 secondary parts.

A few centuries later, these geographic minutes and seconds were applied to the 24-hour day.

But it would take another thousand years before we could accurately measure that second, which we’ll cover on another EarthDate.

Online corbe

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Re: Surprising number of EV owners switch back to gas power, study says
« Reply #73 on: June 02, 2021, 06:11:46 pm »
   Thanks for that explanation @Elderberry I thought it went back to the Sumerians. 
   Our cars are small, not because we are poor (like me) but they fit on the same size roads the Romans used to invade everybody, I also heard.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2021, 06:12:52 pm by corbe »
No government in the 12,000 years of modern mankind history has led its people into anything but the history books with a simple lesson, don't let this happen to you.

Online roamer_1

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Re: Surprising number of EV owners switch back to gas power, study says
« Reply #74 on: June 02, 2021, 07:22:12 pm »
How 10 Fingers Became 12 Hours

episode number ED-191

https://www.earthdate.org/how-10-fingers-became-12-hours

We have 10 fingers, so we’ve based our common counting systems on 10. Why then, do we divide the day into 12 hours and the hour into 60 minutes?

To understand, we need to go back 3000 years. Babylonians also used their hands to count, but wanting to count higher than 10, they devised a different system.

They used their thumb to count the three segments of their four fingers to get 12. They marked that 12 by raising a finger on the other hand. Twelve times five fingers is 60.

2500 years ago, when people started using sundials, it seemed only natural to divide the day in 12.

Egyptian astronomers then found 12 stars to mark the passing of time in the night sky, making a 24-hour cycle.

Early Greek mathematicians realized they could divide a circle into six equilateral triangles like a sliced pizza.

Around 2200 years ago, the first Greek astronomer to describe a round Earth wanted a system to navigate it. He took that 6-part circle and divided each part by 60 to get 360 degrees.

Another Greek divided those degrees further, into 60 minute parts, and those into 60 secondary parts.

A few centuries later, these geographic minutes and seconds were applied to the 24-hour day.

But it would take another thousand years before we could accurately measure that second, which we’ll cover on another EarthDate.

I don't know all that, but your hand without the thumb, held to the sky is about an hour. So if you know the sun came up around 8am and you are 3 hands above the horizon, that is around 11am, and four hands will get you straight up which would be noon... Consequently, each finger is around a quarter hour...

BassWrangler

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Re: Surprising number of EV owners switch back to gas power, study says
« Reply #75 on: June 02, 2021, 07:58:48 pm »
I don't know all that, but your hand without the thumb, held to the sky is about an hour. So if you know the sun came up around 8am and you are 3 hands above the horizon, that is around 11am, and four hands will get you straight up which would be noon... Consequently, each finger is around a quarter hour...

15 minutes per finger. And that's only at the equator.

Offline HoustonSam

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Re: Surprising number of EV owners switch back to gas power, study says
« Reply #76 on: June 02, 2021, 08:17:49 pm »
....
Around 2200 years ago, the first Greek astronomer to describe a round Earth wanted a system to navigate it. He took that 6-part circle and divided each part by 60 to get 360 degrees.
......

My understanding is the 360 degree circle came from ancient celestial observations of what we call the sidereal year, i.e. how long it takes the sun to complete an annual cycle of motion relative to the fixed stars.  We know this is 365 and a quarter days give or take a few minutes; lacking the conveniences of a Hubble Telescope, atomic clocks, and digital computations, the learned ancients were off a bit, or decided simply to round the circle to 360 units for convenience.

I cannot cite a reference, it's just something I read somewhere a long time ago; I stand to be corrected.

I have never read the connection between the twelve carpal bones in the fingers of one hand and the four-fingers-plus-one-thumb of the other hand explaining 12 and 60 in our measurements of time.  If that's not really true, it should be.
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Online roamer_1

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Re: Surprising number of EV owners switch back to gas power, study says
« Reply #77 on: June 03, 2021, 12:06:16 am »
15 minutes per finger. And that's only at the equator.

Works up in  here... Good enough anyhow, for mountain time... Of course it ain't perfect, as it has to do with the size of your hand, length of your arm, height, and etc... But for my particular configuration, it works.  :shrug:


Offline LegalAmerican

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Re: Surprising number of EV owners switch back to gas power, study says
« Reply #78 on: June 03, 2021, 12:53:46 am »
The automobile offers several advantages over the horse and buggy, whereas as far as I can tell the electric car has no advantages over the gas-powered car, and several clear disadvantages, such as shorter range, slower max speed, longer time to refuel. Why would anyone buy an electric car instead of a gas-powered car?


 :thumbsup:

EV is NWO crap.

Offline DB

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Re: Surprising number of EV owners switch back to gas power, study says
« Reply #79 on: June 03, 2021, 12:52:32 pm »
15 minutes per finger. And that's only at the equator.

I don't think it matters if you are on the equator or not regarding the hand/arm and angle being an hour. Angles are angles. It only matters that it takes about 24 of them to make a complete circle. The big adjustment based on where you are is knowing when the sun rise and/or sun set is. If you know that then regardless of where you are the hand measurement still ought to work. I think...

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Re: Surprising number of EV owners switch back to gas power, study says
« Reply #80 on: June 03, 2021, 02:09:03 pm »
If you do it right, fuel for the electric car can be free. You can use other people's electricity to charge it. Our research park has free hookups.
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BassWrangler

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Re: Surprising number of EV owners switch back to gas power, study says
« Reply #81 on: June 03, 2021, 02:29:33 pm »
I don't think it matters if you are on the equator or not regarding the hand/arm and angle being an hour. Angles are angles. It only matters that it takes about 24 of them to make a complete circle. The big adjustment based on where you are is knowing when the sun rise and/or sun set is. If you know that then regardless of where you are the hand measurement still ought to work. I think...

It definitely matters if you are using the technique where you're measuring the number of finger widths between the bottom of the sun and the horizon. You can read more about it here.

Offline DB

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Re: Surprising number of EV owners switch back to gas power, study says
« Reply #82 on: June 03, 2021, 03:48:38 pm »
It definitely matters if you are using the technique where you're measuring the number of finger widths between the bottom of the sun and the horizon. You can read more about it here.

Yep, that technique is heavily dependent on what latitude you are.

Online roamer_1

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Re: Surprising number of EV owners switch back to gas power, study says
« Reply #83 on: June 03, 2021, 06:32:36 pm »
I don't think it matters if you are on the equator or not regarding the hand/arm and angle being an hour. Angles are angles. It only matters that it takes about 24 of them to make a complete circle. The big adjustment based on where you are is knowing when the sun rise and/or sun set is. If you know that then regardless of where you are the hand measurement still ought to work. I think...

Yeah it does matter for telling time... Summer vs winter, the sun ain't in the sky nowhere near the same amount of time. Summer she rises at 4:30 and sets near 11pm... In the winter your lucky if it's up at 9 and it's gone at 4pm...

So telling time, you have to take that into account. But it really don't matter in the doing, because noon is always pretty much straight up, and it still works the same way to tell how long till the sun sets, even if it is longer between noon and when the sun sets... From straight up noon to four oclock is still four hands, and three hands from sunset is still 3hrs. Or thereabouts.

Offline DB

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Re: Surprising number of EV owners switch back to gas power, study says
« Reply #84 on: June 03, 2021, 08:11:48 pm »
Yeah it does matter for telling time... Summer vs winter, the sun ain't in the sky nowhere near the same amount of time. Summer she rises at 4:30 and sets near 11pm... In the winter your lucky if it's up at 9 and it's gone at 4pm...

So telling time, you have to take that into account. But it really don't matter in the doing, because noon is always pretty much straight up, and it still works the same way to tell how long till the sun sets, even if it is longer between noon and when the sun sets... From straight up noon to four oclock is still four hands, and three hands from sunset is still 3hrs. Or thereabouts.

I was thinking about the rotation around the earth and not relative to the horizon. If the horizon is the reference then where you are matters a lot.