Lesson Within A Lesson

[ChemEngrMBA]

This puzzle may be looked up but in the interest of learning, testing, and examining the results, I ask everyone
not to cheat. If you have read it before, please do not respond. This is for those who have never seen the most interesting puzzle.

A prison was overcrowded and the warden decided to free one prisoner. But rather than pick one at random, he thought he would give a test. So three prisoners were brought in to the warden's office and told the following.
"In this duffel bag are five hats. Three are black and two are red. The guard behind you will select them randomly and place one on each of your heads which you cannot see nor remove. If you can tell me the color of the hat on your head, you will be released immediately from prison. But to guard against guessing, you agree that if you guess and are wrong, you will be shot immediately."

All three prisoners agree and the hats are placed on each of their heads.

First prisoner looks at the other two hats and says, "I don't know.
Second prisoner looks at the other two hats and says, "I don't know."
Third prisoner says "I know." He happens to be blind.

Does he? Explain.

After several comments, I will give the correct answer and the Lesson Within This Lesson, which is applicable to many discussions everywhere on earth.

[bigheadfred]

Do you want my answer now? Or in a personal message?

PM coming.

[ChemEngrMBA]

This puzzle may be looked up but in the interest of learning, testing, and examining the results, I ask everyone
not to cheat. If you have read it before, please do not respond. This is for those who have never seen the most interesting puzzle.

A prison was overcrowded and the warden decided to free one prisoner. But rather than pick one at random, he thought he would give a test. So three prisoners were brought in to the warden's office and told the following.
"In this duffel bag are five hats. Three are black and two are red. The guard behind you will select them randomly and place one on each of your heads which you cannot see nor remove. If you can tell me the color of the hat on your head, you will be released immediately from prison. But to guard against guessing, you agree that if you guess and are wrong, you will be shot immediately."

All three prisoners agree and the hats are placed on each of their heads.

First prisoner looks at the other two hats and says, "I don't know.
Second prisoner looks at the other two hats and says, "I don't know."
Third prisoner says "I know." He happens to be blind.

Does he? Explain.

After several comments, I will give the correct answer and the Lesson Within This Lesson, which is applicable to many discussions everywhere on earth.

Second Lesson* Within A Lesson  (*Same Lesson as above)

Old English Riddle

As I was walking to St Ives
I met a man with seven wives
Each wife had seven sacks
Each sack had seven cats
Each cat had seven kits
Kits, cats, sacks, wives, how many were going to St Ives?

[bigheadfred]

Only one person knows. Per riddle.

The blind man and the riddler.

[Cyber Liberty]

 

[ChemEngrMBA]

Well played.  In other words, you can't solve either one.  So sit back and enjoy the lessons.
You will not forget them.

[Cyber Liberty]

Well played.  In other words, you can't solve either one.  So sit back and enjoy the lessons.
You will not forget them.

Not with any certainty.  Not the kind I'd play with getting shot...lol

[bigheadfred]

Not with any certainty.  Not the kind I'd play with getting shot...lol

PM

[ChemEngrMBA]

Not with any certainty.  Not the kind I'd play with getting shot...lol

You are not in the game. But even if you were, the solution will explain to you how there still would be no danger of "getting shot." 

This is turning out nicely.  Thanks to all who have participated. And even to those who have not.
Dontcha know nuffin?  Or are yas askeered?

[bigheadfred]

I ain't skeered. From my own perspective.

[ChemEngrMBA]

Only one person knows. Per riddle.

The blind man and the riddler.

I can't wait any longer!  I give bigheadfred full credit for being the only one even to attempt to answer one, or both riddles.  Over 100 visits to this new Lesson and almost everyone passes on BOTH questions for the obvious reason that nobody has a clue. 

Solution to Prisoner Riddle
First prisoner looks at the other two and does NOT see two red hats. Therefore he could have red or black and he answers "I don't know."
Second prisoner looks just at third prisoner to see if HIS is red. If so, second prisoner knows his own is black BECAUSE prisoner one did NOT see two red.  Since he does NOT see red, he says "I don't know."
Third prisoner is very smart and reasons that his must be black, so he says "I'm wearing black.  Buh bye!"

Solution to English Riddle

"Kits, cats, sacks, wives, how many (of those!) are going to St Ives?"  --Zero.  None.
They are coming from St Ives as they met the other traveler, en Francais on dit "face en face".

Lesson One

Even with all of the information, different people reach very different conclusions, for all sorts of reasons.   


Lesson Within That Lesson

The same is obviously true when discussing politics, science, or anything else.  Facts are secondary to how those facts are interpreted. The Left invariably descends into "You're stupid and anti-science" and so the Right, frustrated by being called stupid and anti-science*, resorts to name-calling as well.

Evolution or climate change discussion, anyone?

[* "Flying spaghetti monster, goddidit, bible-thumper, flat earther, Anyone who doesn't believe in evolution is either ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked. - Richard Dawkins"]

[thackney]

I can't wait any longer!  I give bigheadfred full credit for being the only one even to attempt to answer one, or both riddles.  Over 100 visits to this new Lesson and almost everyone passes on BOTH questions for the obvious reason that nobody has a clue.

No, we just don't care.

[ChemEngrMBA]

thackney
Re: Lesson Within A Lesson
« Reply #11 on: Today at 09:26:00 AM »
Quote
You are ignoring this user. Show me the post.

//////////////////

Lesson to thackney:

Not interested in reading anything written by thackney.

[bigheadfred]

Ok.

Since prisoner three is blind, all hats are black to him. He doesn't have to be any smarter than that.

"Kits, cats, sacks, wives, how many (of those!) are going to St Ives?"

(of those) is an assumption. POV of the narrator, one is going to St. Ives.

[ChemEngrMBA]

Ok.
Since prisoner three is blind, all hats are black to him. He doesn't have to be any smarter than that.
"Kits, cats, sacks, wives, how many (of those!) are going to St Ives?"
(of those) is an assumption. POV of the narrator, one is going to St. Ives.

Fred, the blind prisoner is NOT the arbiter of which hats are red and which are black.  Nor will he determine whether the warden will have him shot or not.  All hats are NOT "black to him."  All he sees is blackness.

Ask an English professor about the reflexive nature of pronouns.    When you say for example, "I love people who eat donuts, they're really tasty" do you think "they" refers to people or donuts?
The pronoun always refers to the previous noun, or nouns in the case of St Ives riddle.

I know you desperately want to be right, but the Lesson Within A Lesson is that everyone wants to be right and very many misuse words and reason to achieve their assumed rectitude.  You are doing precisely that, my friend, on both riddles.

[bigheadfred]

Fred, the blind prisoner is NOT the arbiter of which hats are red and which are black.  Nor will he determine whether the warden will have him shot or not.  All hats are NOT "black to him."  All he sees is blackness.

Ask an English professor about the reflexive nature of pronouns.    When you say for example, "I love people who eat donuts, they're really tasty" do you think "they" refers to people or donuts?
The pronoun always refers to the previous noun, or nouns in the case of St Ives riddle.

I know you desperately want to be right, but the Lesson Within A Lesson is that everyone wants to be right and very many misuse words and reason to achieve their assumed rectitude.  You are doing precisely that, my friend, on both riddles.

I'm not that desperate. You do know the word "destitution" is the combination of destiny and evolution? 

[ChemEngrMBA]

I'm not that desperate. You do know the word "destitution" is the combination of destiny and evolution? 

Fred, Fred, Fred, what are we going to do with you?

I said "desperate."  You change that to "destitution," the condition of being destitute.

Here are the respective definitions:

desperate
[ˈdesp(ə)rət]

ADJECTIVE
feeling, showing, or involving a hopeless sense that a situation is so bad as to be impossible to deal with.


destitute
[ˈdestəˌt(y)o͞ot]

ADJECTIVE
without the basic necessities of life.


Show the audience any destiny or evolution, Fred.

[bigheadfred]

Evolution or climate change discussion, anyone?

Your words.

I don't need your reflexive admonitions. Basing your knowledge on predications. You paint yourself into a corner while accusing others of doing the same. Thereby missing the lesson, not to even mention that other lesson.

MY point is that the destiny of evolution is destitution.

"there is nothing new under the the sun" 

What is that? Preaching to the (in)quire?

[bigheadfred]

@PeteS in CA

Just a ring. (tubsex)

[Absalom]

Hmm............is there a lesson here or are these simply words looking for attention???
The word Evolution was mentioned; defined as gradual development over time from simple to complex.
Darwin's "Origin of the Species" used the word to define the development of Mankind.
Yet while intriguing and provocative, Evolution remains an unproven theory per the rigorous Laws of Science, 160 years after its publication!!!

[bigheadfred]

Hmm............is there a lesson here or are these simply words looking for attention???
The word Evolution was mentioned; defined as gradual development over time from simple to complex.
Darwin's "Origin of the Species" used the word to define the development of Mankind.
Yet while intriguing and provocative, Evolution remains an unproven theory per the rigorous Laws of Science, 160 years after its publication!!!

160 years later that theory is nothing more than it ever was. A supposition.

All of the evidence shows the opposite. Meaning they have never found the missing link.

The evidence shows that all cultures have regarded themselves to be some thing other than evolved. IN any culture, no matter how far they are removed from "US". And I say you can put that in any time frame for the last 200,000 years.

[Hoodat]

Answer:





If the first prisoner saw two reds, then he would know he had black.  So either 2 or 3 (or both) had black.
Likewise, if 2 saw two red hats, then he would know he had black.  So either 1 or 3 (or both) had black.  But if 3 had red, then 2 would know his own color was black.  So since he didn't knw, then 3 couldn't have red.  Therefore, 3 must have black.

[Hoodat]

Second Lesson* Within A Lesson  (*Same Lesson as above)

Old English Riddle

As I was walking to St Ives
I met a man with seven wives
Each wife had seven sacks
Each sack had seven cats
Each cat had seven kits
Kits, cats, sacks, wives, how many were going to St Ives?

This one was in the Diehard movie with Jeremy Irons.

[Hoodat]

Solution to English Riddle

"Kits, cats, sacks, wives, how many (of those!) are going to St Ives?"  --Zero.  None.
They are coming from St Ives as they met the other traveler, en Francais on dit "face en face".

Au contraire, mon frere.  The answer is one.

[bigheadfred]

Answer:





If the first prisoner saw two reds, then he would know he had black.  So either 2 or 3 (or both) had black.
Likewise, if 2 saw two red hats, then he would know he had black.  So either 1 or 3 (or both) had black.  But if 3 had red, then 2 would know his own color was black.  So since he didn't knw, then 3 couldn't have red.  Therefore, 3 must have black.

I see it this way.This is a decision based upon visual clues.  Prisoner 3 is blind. He has no visual clues as to what any other prisoners are doing. He doesn't know how p1 makes his decision. He doesn't know how p2 makes his decision. He is the arbiter of his destiny.

@DeerSlayer calls upon English professors and then adds

They are coming from St Ives as they met the other traveler, en Francais on dit "face en face".

English professors and the "French" to make your point?

Yeah. No.

[Snarknado]

It's actually even a bit simpler - if hat3 is red then P2 would know that his is black (otherwise P1 would have known that his is black).

[Cyber Liberty]

It's actually even a bit simpler - if hat3 is red then P2 would know that his is black (otherwise P1 would have known that his is black).

Seems to me if he saw the other two wearing red hats he was wearing a black hat for sure.   

[Absalom]

160 years later that theory is nothing more than it ever was. A supposition.
All of the evidence shows the opposite. Meaning they have never found the missing link.
The evidence shows that all cultures have regarded themselves to be some thing other than evolved. IN any culture, no matter how far they are removed from "US". And I say you can put that in any time frame for the last 200,000 years.

-------------------------
Fred, on the mark per usual.

[bigheadfred]

-------------------------
Fred, on the mark per usual.

Thank you for the kind remark.

[ChemEngrMBA]

I see it this way.This is a decision based upon visual clues.  Prisoner 3 is blind. He has no visual clues as to what any other prisoners are doing. He doesn't know how p1 makes his decision. He doesn't know how p2 makes his decision. He is the arbiter of his destiny.

@DeerSlayer calls upon English professors and then adds

They are coming from St Ives as they met the other traveler, en Francais on dit "face en face".

English professors and the "French" to make your point?

Yeah. No.

The first point I made was to give you credit DeadHeadFred.  Normally most people would be grateful for the recognition, but not you. 

There was a Chinese story teller who had points to make.  One of them was "You can't please everybody."  You're one of those who can't be pleased, DeadHeadFred.  You surely must have voted for Hillary.  Now since you have nothing to add to conversations, I'll have to add you to my Ignore List. Life is too short for pettiness such as yours, DeadHeadFred. I tried, I explained, but you just want to argue when you have no point to make.   You're not good at learning.  Or thinking.

ciao

[bigheadfred]

The first point I made was to give you credit DeadHeadFred.  Normally most people would be grateful for the recognition, but not you. 

There was a Chinese story teller who had points to make.  One of them was "You can't please everybody."  You're one of those who can't be pleased, DeadHeadFred.  You surely must have voted for Hillary.  Now since you have nothing to add to conversations, I'll have to add you to my Ignore List. Life is too short for pettiness such as yours, DeadHeadFred. I tried, I explained, but you just want to argue when you have no point to make.   You're not good at learning.  Or thinking.

ciao

There was.

Thank you for your kind. It makes life worth living.  Say hello to Aunt Karma if you chance to meet her. You know, just by chance.
That may BE you are incarnated back here as a human being.

[Cyber Liberty]

@DeerSlayer   Geesh!  Touchy!

[ChemEngrMBA]

@DeerSlayer   Geesh!  Touchy!

@Cyber Liberty    Geesh! Injudicious.

I acknowledged him and how did he respond? 

"I see it this way.This is a decision based upon visual clues.  Prisoner 3 is blind. He has no visual clues as to what any other prisoners are doing.  He doesn't know how p1 makes his decision. He doesn't know how p2 makes his decision. He is the arbiter of his destiny. "

Obviously Prisoner 3 DOES know how Prisoner 1 makes his decision.  Let's give all of them the benefit of common sense and analysis. Otherwise you can disregard the entire problem and say, gee, they're too stupid and will just stay in prison.

He continues: 

"@DeerSlayer calls upon English professors and then adds

They are coming from St Ives as they met the other traveler, en Francais on dit "face en face".

English professors and the "French" to make your point?

Yeah. No."

I appealed to a slightly higher frame of thinking than bigheadred was obviously capable of.  He should have recognized that, but did not.

Some people don't realize when they're in over their head.  I made my points when I wrote out the solutions.  He doesn't like the solutions, not my problem. Lots of kids are like that. They drop out, and don't do very well in  life.

[bigheadfred]

You appealed.

uh huh

You rely on other people to do your thinking for you.

Paint that corner.

[ChemEngrMBA]

It's actually even a bit simpler - if hat3 is red then P2 would know that his is black (otherwise P1 would have known that his is black).

Which is what I said in the Solution.

Next Lesson

In memory of Denise Huber

If some decent man, or woman, had stopped to pick up a nail or screw in the street somewhere, Denise Huber would be alive today.  But nobody did, and Denise got a flat tire one night in Costa Mesa, California, on the side of the freeway.

I won't go into details, but if some decent man had stopped to help her change her flat tire, Denise Huber would be alive today. But hundreds of men didn't give a damn about a young lady in distress at night. Only a vile monster stopped.

Do you have a mother, or a wife, sister, or daughter that you want to get home safely?  We all do.  What is keeping you from picking up a nail or screw near an intersection?  That's where they almost always fall, for some reason, perhaps trucks turning corners.  It's no trouble to stoop over and pick up a hazard. You might even save a life.  You'll never know.

Next Lesson

Got kids or grandkids who ride bikes?  Tell them to ride them on the sidewalk.  When there are pedestrians, ride on the grass or stop and let them walk by.  It's really a lot more difficult for cars to run over kids on the sidewalk.  It's lawful in my city.  Police would rather see kids riding on the sidewalk than getting hit by a car.

Next Lesson

Same kids might play handball up against your garage door.  When it bounces out in the street, kids have a singular focus to "rescue" the ball.  It's up to you to change that mental fix. After watching my daughters run out into the street, I created a foolproof incentive.  "If your ball rolls out into the street and a car runs over it, I'll buy you two new ones!  Same goes for your bicycle or anything else.  Two new ones. So let the car run over it.  But no cheating!"

After that offer, they stopped in their tracks and looked for a car that might run over their ball, so they would get two new ones.

I guarantee it.

Now read your young'uns a great story by James Thurber.  I call it Brain Candy.  Read it for the first time to them.  With panache.

http://ManyMoons1.wordpress.com

[Hoodat]

A doctor, a lawyer, a teacher, and a journalist each make a statement.  But only the doctor tells the truth.

Bill:  David is the doctor.
David:  Frank is not the lawyer.
Frank:  Bill is the teacher.
Gus:  Today is my birthday.

Determine each person's profession.

[ChemEngrMBA]

A doctor, a lawyer, a teacher, and a journalist each make a statement.  But only the doctor tells the truth.

Bill:  David is the doctor.
David:  Frank is not the lawyer.
Frank:  Bill is the teacher.
Gus:  Today is my birthday.

Determine each person's profession.

David is the teacher
Frank is the lawyer
Gus is the doctor
Bill is the journalist

"I am no one to be trifled with." - The Man in Black, in The Princess Bride

[ChemEngrMBA]

Hmm............is there a lesson here or are these simply words looking for attention???
The word Evolution was mentioned; defined as gradual development over time from simple to complex.
Darwin's "Origin of the Species" used the word to define the development of Mankind.
Yet while intriguing and provocative, Evolution remains an unproven theory per the rigorous Laws of Science, 160 years after its publication!!!

Right you are Absalom.  And yet millions swear that it is their gospel.
http://TheEvolutionFraud.wordpress.com

[DB]

Here are the 7 possible states (in person 1, 2 and 3 columns):

123
BBB
BBR
BRB
RBB
BRR *1
RRB
RBR *2

Person 1 or 2 can only tell what color hat they have on (black) if the other two hats one of them sees are red, states *1 or *2. Person 3 cannot tell what color hat they have on if neither 1 nor 2 sees two red hats.

So what am I missing? Whether he releases one or shoots one he's freeing up one space in prison in this specific case...

[DB]

Another way to look at it:

He has a 1 in 5 chance of being shot/4 in 5 chance of going free if he says black...

[Hoodat]

Crap, I already answered this 19 months ago. lol

[DB]

I can't wait any longer!  I give bigheadfred full credit for being the only one even to attempt to answer one, or both riddles.  Over 100 visits to this new Lesson and almost everyone passes on BOTH questions for the obvious reason that nobody has a clue. 

Solution to Prisoner Riddle
First prisoner looks at the other two and does NOT see two red hats. Therefore he could have red or black and he answers "I don't know."
Second prisoner looks just at third prisoner to see if HIS is red. If so, second prisoner knows his own is black BECAUSE prisoner one did NOT see two red.  Since he does NOT see red, he says "I don't know."
Third prisoner is very smart and reasons that his must be black, so he says "I'm wearing black.  Buh bye!"

Solution to English Riddle

"Kits, cats, sacks, wives, how many (of those!) are going to St Ives?"  --Zero.  None.
They are coming from St Ives as they met the other traveler, en Francais on dit "face en face".

Lesson One

Even with all of the information, different people reach very different conclusions, for all sorts of reasons.   


Lesson Within That Lesson

The same is obviously true when discussing politics, science, or anything else.  Facts are secondary to how those facts are interpreted. The Left invariably descends into "You're stupid and anti-science" and so the Right, frustrated by being called stupid and anti-science*, resorts to name-calling as well.

Evolution or climate change discussion, anyone?

[* "Flying spaghetti monster, goddidit, bible-thumper, flat earther, Anyone who doesn't believe in evolution is either ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked. - Richard Dawkins"]

I'm missing something. If 1 is wearing black, 2 is wearing black and 3 is wearing red then both 1 and 2 see one black and one red hat and cannot know what color they are wearing. And 3 has a red hat violating your black hat answer.

[DB]

Crap, I already answered this 19 months ago. lol

Prisoner 1 and 2 can both be wearing black hats with only prisoner 3 being red. Both 1 and 2 see one red and one black and cannot know what color their hat is. In this case 3 is red, not black.

All three can be wearing black hats with none knowing that their own hat is black. This time 3 is black.

I'm missing something.

[Hoodat]

I'm missing something. If 1 is wearing black, 2 is wearing black and 3 is wearing red then both 1 and 2 see one black and one red hat and cannot know what color they are wearing. And 3 has a red hat violating your black hat answer.

If 1 is wearing black, he would have seen 2 red hats, and thus would have known he was wearing black.

Prisoner 1 did not see two red hats.  Thus, he tipped off to Prisoner 2 and 3 that one (or both) of their hats were black.

By this, if Prisoner 2 saw a red hat on Prisoner 3, he would know his was black.

But since he didn't, he tipped off to Prisoner 3 that Prisoner 3's hat was black.

[DB]

If 1 is wearing black, he would have seen 2 red hats, and thus would have known he was wearing black.

Prisoner 1 did not see two red hats.  Thus, he tipped off to Prisoner 2 and 3 that one (or both) of their hats were black.

By this, if Prisoner 2 saw a red hat on Prisoner 3, he would know his was black.

But since he didn't, he tipped off to Prisoner 3 that Prisoner 3's hat was black.

All three can be black. There are 3 black and 2 red hats in the bag that was chosen from randomly.

[Hoodat]

Two Trains
(Inspired by Little Feat)

There are parallel train tracks running from Abilene to Imogene. The tracks run in a straight line between the two cities. On a particular morning, Train A begins the journey from Abilene to Imogene on the first track. At the exact same time, Train B begins the journey from Imogene to Abilene on the second track. The two trains always travel at constant velocities.

The two trains pass each other at a small town called Xanadu. From there, Train A takes another 5 hours to reach Imogene, while Train B takes another 10 hours to reach Abilene.

The next day, Train A embarks on the return trip to Abilene at the exact same time Train B leaves for Imogene. This time, they pass each other at a small town called Yonkers, whereby Train A takes another 5 hours to reach Abilene while Train B takes another 10 hours to reach Imogene.

If the distance between Yonkers and Xanadu is 500 miles, then how fast is each train traveling?

[Smokin Joe]

Second Lesson* Within A Lesson  (*Same Lesson as above)

Old English Riddle

As I was walking to St Ives
I met a man with seven wives
Each wife had seven sacks
Each sack had seven cats
Each cat had seven kits
Kits, cats, sacks, wives, how many were going to St Ives?

One. The others were going the other way.

[Hoodat]

All three can be black. There are 3 black and 2 red hats in the bag that was chosen from randomly.

OK, let's say that all three are black.

Prisoner 1 sees two black hats.  He knows that his is either red/red/black.  Thus, he cannot be certain of his own color.

Prisoner 2 sees two black hats.  If he had seen a red hat on Prisoner 3, then he would have been certain that his hat was black.  The fact that he was not certain tips off Prisoner 3 that 3's hat cannot be red.

[DB]

OK, let's say that all three are black.

Prisoner 1 sees two black hats.  He knows that his is either red/red/black.  Thus, he cannot be certain of his own color.

Prisoner 2 sees two black hats.  If he had seen a red hat on Prisoner 3, then he would have been certain that his hat was black.  The fact that he was not certain tips off Prisoner 3 that 3's hat cannot be red.

Thank you. I now understand. I'm slow today...

[DB]

Two Trains
(Inspired by Little Feat)

There are parallel train tracks running from Abilene to Imogene. The tracks run in a straight line between the two cities. On a particular morning, Train A begins the journey from Abilene to Imogene on the first track. At the exact same time, Train B begins the journey from Imogene to Abilene on the second track. The two trains always travel at constant velocities.

The two trains pass each other at a small town called Xanadu. From there, Train A takes another 5 hours to reach Imogene, while Train B takes another 10 hours to reach Abilene.

The next day, Train A embarks on the return trip to Abilene at the exact same time Train B leaves for Imogene. This time, they pass each other at a small town called Yonkers, whereby Train A takes another 5 hours to reach Abilene while Train B takes another 10 hours to reach Imogene.

If the distance between Yonkers and Xanadu is 500 miles, then how fast is each train traveling?

Answer is messy so I'm guessing I missed something...

Train 1 is going 100 * sqr(2) + 100 mph (241.42 mph rounded).
Train 2 is going 50 * sqr(2) + 100 mph (170.71 mph rounded).

The total distance between Imogene and Abilene is 1000 * sqr(2) + 1000 + 500 miles (2914.21 miles rounded). The 500 miles is the distance between Yonkers and Xanadu.