Author Topic: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD  (Read 55702 times)

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Offline sneakypete

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #450 on: August 14, 2019, 08:55:23 pm »
But they are practically forbidden...

...and 176 homicides to date in NYC, being touted as a 'drop in crime'.

**nononono*

In the meantime, no homicides here (maybe a few coyotes, prairie dogs, or gophers shot, though)...

But the people who live in the hive want to make rules for those in the badlands, even though they've never seen them.

@Smokin Joe

I remember reading years ago about one of Woody Allens friends buying a ranch in Montana or Wyoming,and living there when not working on a play or similar project. Woody had never left NYC in his whole life,so his friend decided to expand his horizons by inviting him to the ranch and providing the airplane to bring him there.

Allen refused to get off the airplane after it landed. He was terrified at all the open country and no police escort or bodyguards anywhere in sight.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #451 on: August 14, 2019, 08:57:29 pm »
@Smokin Joe

I remember reading years ago about one of Woody Allens friends buying a ranch in Montana or Wyoming,and living there when not working on a play or similar project. Woody had never left NYC in his whole life,so his friend decided to expand his horizons by inviting him to the ranch and providing the airplane to bring him there.

Allen refused to get off the airplane after it landed. He was terrified at all the open country and no police escort or bodyguards anywhere in sight.

I find that reasonably credible. SO many city folks can't handle open space. They can't control it, it isn't made by humans, and often they have discarded the God (not a Religion, but God) most out here trust.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline sneakypete

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #452 on: August 14, 2019, 09:02:07 pm »
Yeah, I enjoyed my visit in '74, up on the Empire State Building, seeing who could spot the most hookers for a dime in the telescopes...

But live there? No thanks, no way. I really like being able to see the stars (celestial) at night.

@Smokin Joe

One of the saddest thoughts I have had today is that probably 90 percent of the Americans living today have no idea what you are talking about because they have never seen a sky filled with stars with no artificial light anywhere around. There is not a sedative in the world that can match the feeling of peace and wonder you can get staring at a full-power night sky. It's priceless.

The unfortunate reality is most people have to live where they can earn a living,and the jobs are in the cities.
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #453 on: August 14, 2019, 09:07:08 pm »
@Smokin Joe

I remember reading years ago about one of Woody Allens friends buying a ranch in Montana or Wyoming,and living there when not working on a play or similar project. Woody had never left NYC in his whole life,so his friend decided to expand his horizons by inviting him to the ranch and providing the airplane to bring him there.

Allen refused to get off the airplane after it landed. He was terrified at all the open country and no police escort or bodyguards anywhere in sight.

Wellll, the Daughter-raper is a self-described neurotic.   :whistle:
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #454 on: August 14, 2019, 09:21:17 pm »
Wellll, the Daughter-raper is a self-described neurotic.   :whistle:

@Cyber Liberty

He is a rat that grew up in and never left a maze,so what else could he be?
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Offline thackney

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #455 on: August 14, 2019, 09:32:58 pm »
It just doesn't seem right to come onto a thread and take up so much of the oxygen without knowing what you're talking about.   :shrug:

Sorry you believe I should not comment in the discussion unless I watch a 45 minute video.  It usually won't ever happen for me.

If it is information worth sharing, it should be worth writing down.

I am not wired for oral lectures.
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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #456 on: August 14, 2019, 09:41:37 pm »
Sorry you believe I should not comment in the discussion unless I watch a 45 minute video.  It usually won't ever happen for me.

If it is information worth sharing, it should be worth writing down.

I am not wired for oral lectures.

I daresay she wasn't talking about you, @thackney. :whistle:
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline txradioguy

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #457 on: August 14, 2019, 09:45:38 pm »
@txradioguy

Good man!

My best friend...a retired Navy CPO reminded me too that it violates posse commitatus. Further making this kind of order highly unlawful.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

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Offline Sanguine

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #458 on: August 14, 2019, 09:57:11 pm »
Sorry you believe I should not comment in the discussion unless I watch a 45 minute video.  It usually won't ever happen for me.

If it is information worth sharing, it should be worth writing down.

I am not wired for oral lectures.

I dislike videos too; I want to read it.

However, as far as you are concerned I assume that you have the appropriate background and education to express an intelligent opinion on this subject.

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #459 on: August 14, 2019, 09:59:09 pm »
My best friend...a retired Navy CPO reminded me too that it violates posse commitatus. Further making this kind of order highly unlawful.

That kind of order would be the sort I'd expect of a Rat President, to deafening applause, as @INVAR would say.  I greatly appreciate your discussing it.  I know what I would do but I'm a Civilian and don't know what the Manual says.  And thanks for the tip on the Insurance, that will be one of my first calls after I check what Insurance the Dr. I want to get takes..
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #460 on: August 14, 2019, 10:00:21 pm »
I dislike videos too; I want to read it.

Dittos.  I can't hear very well, and videos are a major chore for me.  YouTube CC, when available, is for crap.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline txradioguy

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #461 on: August 14, 2019, 10:04:20 pm »
That kind of order would be the sort I'd expect of a Rat President, to deafening applause, as @INVAR would say.  I greatly appreciate your discussing it.  I know what I would do but I'm a Civilian and don't know what the Manual says.  And thanks for the tip on the Insurance, that will be one of my first calls after I check what Insurance the Dr. I want to get takes..

It’s something I’ve been thinking long and hard about since January of 2009.  How I would handle something like that.  It’s a decision full of risk no matter which way you go with it.  But as a Sr NCO and someone who takes the NCO Creed to heart...I couldn’t uphold my oath AND carry out an unlawful order like that.

I hope they’re able to help you on the insurance.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline EdJames

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #462 on: August 14, 2019, 10:09:10 pm »
@thackney
@Sanguine
@Cyber Liberty

Oh you video-phobes!!

Now you’ve done it!

Guilted me but good.....  I’ll spend a hour when I get one tomorrow to create a quick transcript....

It will be worth it, for our collective prosperity.....

(It will be largely outline form, and I will skip her references to the details of the Massachusetts Constitution.)


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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #463 on: August 14, 2019, 10:10:20 pm »
It’s something I’ve been thinking long and hard about since January of 2009.  How I would handle something like that.  It’s a decision full of risk no matter which way you go with it.  But as a Sr NCO and someone who takes the NCO Creed to heart...I couldn’t uphold my oath AND carry out an unlawful order like that.

I hope they’re able to help you on the insurance.

Let's hope all Sarges have their heads screwed on like yours, my friend.

And thanks again about the other! :beer: :beer:
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline txradioguy

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #464 on: August 14, 2019, 10:12:46 pm »
Let's hope all Sarges have their heads screwed on like yours, my friend.

And thanks again about the other! :beer: :beer:

It would be too much to believe all of them will. I just hope there’s enough if/when the time comes.
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

Here lies in honored glory an American soldier, known but to God

THE ESTABLISHMENT IS THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION

Republicans Don't Need A Back Bench...They Need a BACKBONE!

Offline Sanguine

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #465 on: August 14, 2019, 10:19:32 pm »
@thackney
@Sanguine
@Cyber Liberty

Oh you video-phobes!!

Now you’ve done it!

Guilted me but good.....  I’ll spend a hour when I get one tomorrow to create a quick transcript....

It will be worth it, for our collective prosperity.....

(It will be largely outline form, and I will skip her references to the details of the Massachusetts Constitution.)

Oh, I download them (horrible internet service) and listen to them, but I whine while I'm doing it. 

Thanks, Ed.  We all appreciate it.   Or, will.

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #466 on: August 14, 2019, 10:21:16 pm »
Oh, I download them (horrible internet service) and listen to them, but I whine while I'm doing it. 

Thanks, Ed.  We all appreciate it.   Or, will.

I don't whine, but Mrs. Liberty does if I don't use my headphones....
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #467 on: August 14, 2019, 11:49:56 pm »
@Smokin Joe

One of the saddest thoughts I have had today is that probably 90 percent of the Americans living today have no idea what you are talking about because they have never seen a sky filled with stars with no artificial light anywhere around. There is not a sedative in the world that can match the feeling of peace and wonder you can get staring at a full-power night sky. It's priceless.

The unfortunate reality is most people have to live where they can earn a living,and the jobs are in the cities.
It is that awesome feeling of practically falling off the planet. On a crisp winter night (if you can keep your breath cloud out of the way), you can see forever out there. Now, if there are even a few ice crystals in the air, the well flares shoot beams up into the sky from the flare pits.  It's unreal and quite beautiful, like some sci fi cover art....
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline sneakypete

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #468 on: August 15, 2019, 12:06:41 am »
It is that awesome feeling of practically falling off the planet. On a crisp winter night (if you can keep your breath cloud out of the way), you can see forever out there. Now, if there are even a few ice crystals in the air, the well flares shoot beams up into the sky from the flare pits.  It's unreal and quite beautiful, like some sci fi cover art....

@Smokin Joe

Interesting you would say that. It had never occurred to me before I read it,but I now believe it was staring at the rural night sky in wonder when I was a child that opened my mind to possibilities,and made me a fan of science fiction.

I truly  believe the best gift you can give an intelligent teen with a curious mind are subscriptions to "Asimov's Science Fiction" and to "Analog,the magazine of science fiction and fact". If those two can't fire their imaginations and inspire them,they are doomed to be drones.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 12:07:49 am by sneakypete »
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #469 on: August 15, 2019, 12:11:57 am »
@Smokin Joe

Interesting you would say that. It had never occurred to me before I read it,but I now believe it was staring at the rural night sky in wonder when I was a child that opened my mind to possibilities,and made me a fan of science fiction.

I truly  believe the best gift you can give an intelligent teen with a curious mind are subscriptions to "Asimov's Science Fiction" and to "Analog,the magazine of science fiction and fact". If those two can't fire their imaginations and inspire them,they are doomed to be drones.
I haven't read either magazine in years, but I did as a kid. My cousin handed down copies of her Science fiction magazines and the books she read to me and I ate that up. I still like decent SciFi to read and occasionally watch shorts on youtube (Dust seems like a good group, but there are others).

Yeah, as a kid in the sticks, the night sky meant more than just a surge in human stupidity (full moons), and still does.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #470 on: August 15, 2019, 03:27:01 am »
@thackney
@Sanguine
@Cyber Liberty

Oh you video-phobes!!

Now you’ve done it!

Guilted me but good.....  I’ll spend a hour when I get one tomorrow to create a quick transcript....

It will be worth it, for our collective prosperity.....

(It will be largely outline form, and I will skip her references to the details of the Massachusetts Constitution.)

I saved the video, the audio, and would appreciate a ping to the transcript too.... For son's education.... this whole thread has been a blast.
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #471 on: August 15, 2019, 05:20:04 am »

@roamer_1

Some people seem to need a REALLY strong door more than anything else.

@sneakypete
You mean like the ones they have on padded cells?  :beer:

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #472 on: August 15, 2019, 06:00:11 am »
One of the saddest thoughts I have had today is that probably 90 percent of the Americans living today have no idea what you are talking about because they have never seen a sky filled with stars with no artificial light anywhere around. There is not a sedative in the world that can match the feeling of peace and wonder you can get staring at a full-power night sky. It's priceless.

@sneakypete
You have never said anything more true.

Quote
The unfortunate reality is most people have to live where they can earn a living,and the jobs are in the cities.

Yeah, that is what is believed.
But there are differing definitions of 'making a living'
There's the broad way, well lighted, well marked, and made for speed
And then there's the narrow twisting rocky way - Hard to find, not well marked, easy to lose your way....

On that narrow way, you wpn't find gold, you won't find fame, and you won't find fancy degrees. You'll often find hunger, awful heat, and bitter cold, and always hard, hard work. You'll find fear, and loneliness and pain, raw as they come.

I left the one for the other... The broad way looks so easy, and once you're on it, it tends to suck you along - services cost money - ease has value... So the cost requires income, and income requires time, and soon you are a slave to your conveniences.

By the time I figured it out, and even so, it was terribly hard to take that exit ramp, and head for the foothills, above which that narrow way could be found. The best things in life are truly free - They have to be, because they are up there on that narrow way I wish I'd never left.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 06:01:50 am by roamer_1 »

Offline EdJames

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #473 on: August 15, 2019, 05:39:40 pm »
@thackney
@Sanguine
@Cyber Liberty
@Everyone

OK, in this post is the transcription up through 25:16 of 46:52.  I will post the rest tomorrow.

Speaker: KrisAnne Hall, JD
Title: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws
Location: Second Amendment Rally in Massachusetts
Date (Approximate): Jue 17, 2019
Video Length: 46:52

About KrisAnne Hall:

KrisAnne Hall is an attorney and former prosecutor, fired after teaching the Constitution Conservative groups & public schools – she would not sacrifice liberty for a paycheck. She is a disabled veteran of the US Army, a Russian linguist, a mother, a pastor’s wife and a patriot. She now travels the country and teaches the Constitution and the history that gave us our founding documents. KrisAnne Hall does not just teach the Constitution, she lays the foundations that show how reliable and relevant our founding documents are today. She presents the “genealogy” of the Constitution – the 700 year history and five foundational documents that are the very roots of American Liberty. -

See more at: http://krisannehall.com/

Quick Transcription:

All people say: knowledge is power... but that is not true, knowledge is not power until it is activated...

And until we actually accept the truth... and I don't mean me just throwing ideas at you...  because if I am just here to give you statements and ideas.... can't you just admit to me that by the time that you get out to the parking lot you are going to have forgotten about 75% of what I am have been saying...

{gestures to crowd to raise their hands and nods}

So what I want to do is to give you something that lasts...   something that becomes motivation...  something that will drive you to activation...  an activation that is more than just being a member of a group...  more than just being a keyboard warrior...  more than just being somebody that emails your representative every now and then.... or Tweets or posts....  or whatever

We are creeping into a time and day where the complacency in which we operate is going to drive us into a den of despotism that will be nearly impossible for us to peacefully escape...  I just want you  to know, those whose gave us America, gave us amazing, wonderful things.... but the greatest gift that they gave to us, was the opportunity to self-govern....

You see they just didn't declare independence from Great Britain, they declared independence from kings and rulers forever... 

{applause from crowd}

And one of the greatest problems that we have in American politics today.... is not the President of the United States.... is not your congressman....  Samuel Adams said that no people will tamely surrender their liberties nor be easily subdued when knowledge is diffused and virtue is preserved.... he said that on the contrary, when the People become....  when the People become universally ignorant and debauched in their manners, they will sink underneath their own weight....  without the aid of foreign invaders....

I would tell you in my experience in History, and in learning History, and in seeing what is happening in government today, the greatest challenge that we have in politics today.... is that the American society constantly seeking a political savior.....

Donald Trump can not fix what is wrong with America today....  nor do you want Donald Trump to fix what's wrong with America today.... for Donald Trump to fix what is wrong with America today, he would need to cease being a President and start being a king....  and that is quintessentially the opposite of who we are....

We have to stop searching for people who will make the difference, and start accepting that responsibility upon our selves.... stop looking for George Washington to return.... stop yearning for Thomas Jefferson or James Madison to come back and teach our children....  and BE the Founders of our Future!!

{applause from crowd}

You have the same power that they had....  you have the same authority they had....  and if you're simply honest with yourself, every Liberty loving American carries the same Spirit that they had....  you just have to activate it...  and I believe that that activation can only come through knowing the Truth....  a commodity that's a little hard to come by in America today....

So what I want to talk to you about today...   I know that you heard a couple of speakers talk about this today.....  we have activists that talk about this today, we have politicians that talk about this today...  But I want to teach you something that I think that we are not finding enough of.... and I believe it is because we don't have the depth and understanding necessary to really become passionate about this....  I want to talk to you today about Red Flag Laws....

Now I'm knowing this problem..... when I was praying about what to teach today....  because I have.... I have Liberty First University.... I have been traveling this country for 9 years... in those 9 years, I've averaged 265 classes in over 22 States, every single year....  I have a lot of different things that I teach to a lot of different people on a lot of different occasions....

So when I was praying today about what to bring to you, I thought to myself.... these people do not need an education on the Second Amendment...  of all the people that I address, if anybody is going to have a firm foundation of what "Shall not be infringed" means.... these people have that....

But what we need to understand is the intricacy and intimacy of all of our Rights...  how they are intertwined, how they are entangled upon each other.... how they are incumbent upon each other for their own existence....  let me give you an example...

Just a little pop quiz that I like to give when I go around and teach...  so I know that I told you to get your pocket Constitutions out.... but at this point in time.... close them....  no cheating on your cell phones....  because I am going to give you a pop quiz...

The First Amendment contains 5 liberties....  to yourself.... not out loud....  name all 5 of those liberties found in the First Amendment....

Now I've been doing this for 9 years.... I also know that since I've been doing this there have been national polls... that in any given crowd, at best....  less than 2% of the people will be able to name all 5...

So we love the Second Amendment... we love our Right to Keep and Bear Arms....  but what about the others?

You see if you do not know what your Rights are, how do you know that they are not already gone?

If you can not define your Rights...  how are you going to defend them?

And here's the thing.... your Right to Freedom of religion.... Freedom of speech...  Freedom of press... the Right to peaceably assemble.... the Right to petition the government to redress of your grievances... is incumbent on your Right to Keep and Bear Arms... and Right to Keep and Bear Arms must also have your Right to freely communicate...

How many of you have heard of the Weaver problem.... in Ruby Ridge?  Right, you remember Ruby Ridge....

How many of you remember Bundy Ranch? 

Can I tell you from a Constitutional Property Rights perspective those two situations were very, very similar....

But they had very different endings..... Why?  Not because of the RKBA, the Weaver family had Arms.... Bundy Ranch had Arms.... why were they different?  Why did they end differently?  Because at the Weaver household.... they didn't have cell phones....  they didn't have social media.... they did not have a way to communicate their plight with the outside world and bring in those of like minds, with like passions, and like knowledge to defend them...

Your RKBA is essential.... but let me tell you, if you don't have the Right to Freedom of Speech.... the Right to Freedom of press, the Right to petition the government, if you don't the Right to peaceably assemble.... it is you alone with your gun against the king....  and you lose....

The power in the RKBA is the power to Keep and Bear them together as a community...

And that is the sole purpose of community.... the only reason that community exists.... the Declaration of Independence tells us....  We hold these truths to be self evident... that all men are are created equally and endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights...   and that to secure these rights governments are instituted among men, deriving their just power from the consent of the governed....

There is only one reason for organized society that we call government to exist....  and that is for people to come together in a unified body, and that is to secure each other's rights....

But when we allow... when we, as Samuel Adams says, when we tamely suffer a lawless attack upon our Liberty, we actually encourage it... 

When we diminish the.... the necessity of one Right or the other and we lift one up and ignore the other.... we are actually bringing about the destruction of them all....

Can you have Freedom of speech without Freedom of press?

Can you have Freedom of speech without the Right to peaceably assemble?

If you don't have the Right to complain to your government, where is your Freedom of speech?

Do you have a Freedom of religion if you don't have a Freedom of speech?  Or Freedom of press.....  whose going to print your Bibles if it is now illegal?

You see, when one falls, they all fall....  and that's why the Bill of Rights exists in the manner it does.... the entire purpose of the BOR is not to control government.... because paper and ink does not control government....   our Framers referred to them as parchment buries (?)....  the only thing that controls government are an educated People who are devoted and in love with the posterity and liberty....

{much applause from audience}

But how can we love something that we do not know?  How can you have an affinity and attachment for something that you do not know exists?

I want to show you,....  about these Red Flag Laws.... and why it is more than just a Second Amendment issue...  now you have your pocket Constitutions....  How many of you have pocket Massachusetts Constitutions?  This is your State.... within in your State, your Constitution is just as important, if not more so, than the US Constitution....  you ought to know where the essential protections of your liberties exist within your own State Constitution....

Can I just admit to you that I think what we have today....  is that we've been so deceived and distracted by the circus of Washington, DC that it has caused us to turn our attention and our minds away from the things that are truly important...  and the placement of our true power....  do you know if we were truly, truly in love with our Liberty.... and truly educated at the same time.... a Presidential election would be in the order of importance.... lower then the election of your sheriff....  because in your county your sheriff has more power and more control than the President of the United States....  has more power and more control than your state legislator and your governor....

If we were honest about where our Liberty and where our power really exists, we wouldn't be so....  fawning over US Representatives and we would be visiting our statehouses instead....  we wouldn't send another dime to a Presidential election, we wouldn't send another dime to a national election... we spend all of our resources and all of our time state and local because that is where we make change....

{applause from audience}

So I want to talk to you today about Red Flag Laws, both national and local....  because you know that there is a push national too.... but that you already have RFL here...  and I think that the reason these RFLs so easily seeped in to our societies....  is because the people have been.....  led down a primrose path.....  and have been deceived into believing that laws stop crimes....  and that is just really.... you know.... a Second Amendment issue.... it's just a small regulation....  on your ability to KBA....  if we understood how BIG it actually was....  how all encompassing of multiple divisions of Rights... we wouldn't be sitting at a gun rally today, we be occupying your capitol right now...  until something was changed....

So let me show you....  if you don't have a Massachusetts Constitution, I would encourage you to follow along on your cell phone... because it is online... and I want you to see these words ...  not just with your hearing mind.... but with your seeing mind as well....  now when we talk about Rights....  we should begin with Rights....  I have a video on my YouTube channel called "Rights versus Benefits" because it is a serious point of confusion in America.... the difference between Rights and benefits.... so I want to establish for you today.... the foundation of Rights...  and I want you to make me a promise.... from this day forward.... these words will never escape your lips again.... are you ready?  "Second Amendment Rights"  I don't want you to ever say these words again.. because what you speak out of your mouth, affects your mind.... and every time we say "Second Amendment Rights" we somehow convince our mind and our spirits that our RKBA comes from a document benefited to us by those in government....

Your RKBA does NOT come from the Constitution.... it does not come from a government document.... it doesn't come from any document at all....  your RKBA emanates from the first Law of Nature....  commonly known as the Duty of Self Preservation...

Samuel Adams wrote in 1772....  among the Natural Rights of the colonists are these.... first the Right to Life....  secondly to Liberty....  thirdly to Property....  together.... number four..... your Right together with the Right to support and defend them in the best manner they can...  These are evident branches of, rather than deductions from, the Duty of Self-Preservation, commonly called the first Law of Nature.

Your RKBA comes from God.... by the nature of your Creation and your Duty to preserve your life to the glory of God....

{much applause from audience}

But KrisAnne.....  I don't believe in God.....  does that mean my Right does not come from God?

NO!  It does not....  but if you don't believe in God you have to admit that your Rights do not come from government because if they come from government they are no longer Rights.... they are privileges...  you must admit....  even the unbeliever must admit that there is a higher power that bestows upon every living creature the Right to breathe and the Right to protect that breath....

{applause from audience}

Because the bottom line is.... if you don't have the Right to protect your own breath.... you are a slave.... the property of another.... the one who protects you,...  and assigns the value for your body....

This is why the Second Amendment reads: "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

The Second Amendment doesn't emanate from the BOR, the Second Amendment originates in Natural Law....  your Duty to live.... and your Right to protect that life...

{at this point in the presentation she focuses on where to find the Natural Law Rights in the Massachusetts Constitution....  I have skipped that part in this transcription, but suggest that each of us locate them in our own State constitutions.}

James Madison wrote in 1792, an essay called "Property" in which he defined the term, "Property."  He said this term in its particular application means “that dominion which one man claims and exercises over the external things of the world, in exclusion of every other individual.”   

(refer to the OP of this thread for a ready reference to the "Property" essay.)

That's a no-brainer right?  So in layman's terms Madison is simply saying what you call your property is your stuff...  your car... your cell phone.... your house.... everybody knows that....

But he goes on to say in a larger and juster meaning of this word "Property," it embraces every thing to which a man may attach a value and have a right; and which leaves to every one else the like advantage.

James Madison, the man that we refer to a the father of the Constitution, is trying to explain to us that our Rights are more than ideas....  they're more than thoughts are desires.... are Rights are actual Property.... and listen to what he says....

You have a property very dear to you in the safety and liberty of your person.

Can I just let that sort of sink in a little bit....

If you were to ask your friends...  OK let's have a little fun thing.... I'm going to show you the Second Amendment... I want you to identify the property issues within the Second Amendment... and I guarantee you very quickly they'll go "Oh... the RKBA.... because Arms...  you know guns.... that's the property.... guns are property....  that's the issue...."

James Madison would agree... but he would say.... yes, but you're missing the most important part... the Right itself is Property....



Offline EdJames

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #474 on: August 15, 2019, 05:45:57 pm »
Pinging @Sighlass to the above post.  (Sorry pal, forgot you in the ping.)

Offline roamer_1

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #475 on: August 15, 2019, 05:50:37 pm »
OK, in this post is the transcription up through 25:16 of 46:52.  I will post the rest tomorrow.


Hey @EdJames ...
https://www.hongkiat.com/blog/three-ways-transcribe-youtube-videos/

Jussayin...  :shrug:

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #476 on: August 15, 2019, 06:22:08 pm »
Thank you @EdJames!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline thackney

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #477 on: August 15, 2019, 06:27:47 pm »
@EdJames

Bless you.  Thank you for your work.
Life is fragile, handle with prayer

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #478 on: August 15, 2019, 07:38:32 pm »
@EdJames Thank you! Thank You! Thank You!

I'm going to Copy that into Word, and send that transcript around to some friends. Let's see if we can't light some fires.  :patriot:

First half, down!
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 07:41:08 pm by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline EdJames

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #479 on: August 15, 2019, 07:59:54 pm »
@Bigun
@thackney
@Smokin Joe

You guys are more than welcome!  It is a pleasure for me to work on as it makes me reflect more deeply as I go through the video at 1/2 speed.  Plus I will now have the text to share, in particular want this for my grandsons as they get a tad older.

Should be able to finish it off tomorrow, going to try the 2nd tool in @roamer_1's link to gather some of the raw text for refinement.

 :patriot:

Offline roamer_1

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #480 on: August 15, 2019, 08:06:54 pm »
Should be able to finish it off tomorrow, going to try the 2nd tool in @roamer_1's link to gather some of the raw text for refinement.


@EdJames
Not an expert, but I can tell you it will likely be a fair copy - Requiring some editing.
Don't use it for anything redneck... Google doesn't understand redneck, as Google Assistant proves to me by the hour.

Offline Sanguine

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #481 on: August 15, 2019, 08:10:06 pm »
@Bigun
@thackney
@Smokin Joe

You guys are more than welcome!  It is a pleasure for me to work on as it makes me reflect more deeply as I go through the video at 1/2 speed.  Plus I will now have the text to share, in particular want this for my grandsons as they get a tad older.

Should be able to finish it off tomorrow, going to try the 2nd tool in @roamer_1's link to gather some of the raw text for refinement.

 :patriot:


@EdJames, thank you for doing that.  That is going above and beyond!

Offline Sighlass

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #482 on: August 16, 2019, 12:40:22 am »
Pinging @Sighlass to the above post.  (Sorry pal, forgot you in the ping.)

Thank you EdJames, that took a pretty penny of time to type up... I know, I have tried to transcribe a few things and it ain't fun. I appreciate it sir. Please ping me when you have time to do the rest... I appreciate it.

« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 12:46:52 am by Sighlass »
Exodus 18:21 Furthermore, you shall select out of all the people able men who fear God, men of truth, those who hate dishonest gain; and you shall place these over them as leaders over ....

Offline EdJames

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #483 on: August 16, 2019, 10:49:11 am »
@EdJames
Not an expert, but I can tell you it will likely be a fair copy - Requiring some editing.
Don't use it for anything redneck... Google doesn't understand redneck, as Google Assistant proves to me by the hour.

The link to the second tool gave me a nice block of text for editing...  thanks for that info, I was unaware of the tools!!

 :beer:

(Tried the first tool a few times, which is the transcription option in the YouTube video, and it just churned away for hours without producing anything....  utility may vary by video...)

Offline EdJames

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #484 on: August 16, 2019, 10:52:59 am »
@Sanguine
@Bigun
@Cyber Liberty
@Sighlass
@Smokin Joe
@thackney
@roamer_1

@Anyone time-impaired, hearing-impaired, or otherwise impaired, or just wants the text of the presentation!!

Here it is, the rest of the transcription,  from 25:17 through 46:52.

===

So let me ask you this question..... let's just say three individuals in black suits and ties with a clipboard.... they come to your house.... and they say to you: we want to show you the legal survey of your property boundaries.... now we recognize that when you bought this property the boundaries were laid out, everybody has a legal survey of their property... we understand that you own this property, but we're looking at this survey of your property and we're realizing that you know this survey was done 20-30 years ago... and you have to admit, life has changed a lot in the last 30 years... so in order to keep up with the changing times, here's what we want to suggest to you... what we're gonna do is we're gonna reinterpret the boundary lines of your property in towards your home just two feet... we're not actually changing the legal boundaries they will still say legally in your property appraiser's office these are your boundaries but we're gonna reinterpret them in two feet on all sides... now don't worry we're not discriminating against you, because we're gonna do this for everybody... and what I need you to see because we're doing this for everybody, you have to understand the benefit of this means we're gonna have a four foot buffer between everybody's property, so we can provide you with greater security and greater services...

How many of you are gonna sign on the dotted line?  Oh yeah sure, how many you might be tempted to stand on the front porch and go "click-shhh, no thank you, leave my property?"

So here's what James Madison is trying to tell you.. if you are willing to take and defend the physical property upon which your grass grows to that extent, why would you not take the same passion to your Right to Freedom of speech? to the property of your Freedom of press? to the property in your RKBA?

As they're always trying to say we're not amending this amendment... we're just going to reinterpret it a little bit, for the benefit of everyone else...

You see, I think we fail to see the magnitude of what is happening today, because we have failed to teach the Principles for a very long time...

I mentioned to you your property is an essential Right, your property is a Natural Right... your property, and the Right to secure that property is an inalienable Right...

Which is why the Fourth Amendment reads, once again the Right of the People... not the right of the government, the Right of the People to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects... you see that the word "effects," it's the catch-all...

It's everything that Madison was talking about.... the effects is everything that you put value in, it's everything that you have a Right to...

And you are to be secure against unreasonable searches and seizures... now what's interesting is because even in law school we don't actually study the Constitution anymore.... Does that shock anybody?  Lawyers haven't learned the Constitution in law school for decades.... What we learn, is what other people write about the Constitution... and quite often it's more like what other people wrote about other people, who wrote about the other things that other people wrote...

It's like that game when we were kids called "telephone" where you whisper in somebody's ear and then by the time it gets back to you it doesn't even closely resemble what you said... that's what's happened to our Constitution...

Back in ancient days kings used to make it illegal to read and write...  King William the first, the Conqueror, made the legal language of England, French!  It was illegal to speak anything but French in England... Why?  That's because the people couldn't understand French, they couldn't understand the laws, so they couldn't object...

That is the deception America is under today... we have been deceived into believing that the Constitution is to difficult to understand... so we have to leave it... to politicians, and professors, and pundits... all the while, their goal is to keep us enslaved, docile, and obedient...

Those people will tell you that that's that the Fourth Amendment is very clear... you are not free from all searches and seizures... you're only free from unreasonable ones... But there's a problem my dear America... how do we define what is "reasonable?"   

And they spent decades... and billions of dollars in law school brains, to come up with a definition of "reasonableness"  You may not believe me but this is actually the legal standard of what is "reasonable."  A reasonable search-and-seizure is something that some "reasonable" person would find "reasonable" under "reasonable" circumstances...

That is a legal definition.... Yeah, my husband likes to say you got to go to college to get that stupid....

[laughter from crowd]

But what we fail to recognize is that the Fourth Amendment already tells us what is reasonable... because it doesn't stop right after the words "shall not be violated..."  it says no warrant shall issue but based upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, particularly describing the place, or the place to be seized, the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

A reasonable search-and-seizure is one that completes five elements... and the language of the Fourth Amendment proves that... no warrant, probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized... that word, "and," means in order to have a reasonable search and seizure ALL five elements must be present at the same time... not four out of five, not four and a half out of five, all five... by the definition established by our drafters of the Constitution....  Anything beyond that is an unreasonable search and seizure...

And yet, we have somehow allowed the government to rewrite the Constitution without an Amendment... and invent exceptions like... except in national security... except in matters of exigent circumstances... except, in the war on drugs...

Do you know, article 16 of the Massachusetts Constitution says: every subject has a right to be secure from all unreasonable searches and seizures?  The same terms apply here in the State of Massachusetts, as they do on the federal level...

Now don't think that KrisAnne has wandered off... she said she's gonna be talking about Red Flag Laws... but I'm establishing to you, the foundation of our Rights... we have a RKBA, because we are property Rights in securing our bodies and our lives and our property... we have a Right to be secure in our property... both on federal and state levels, we cannot tolerate unreasonable searches and seizures.... But do you not also know, you have a Right to not be deprived of Life, Liberty, or Property without due process of law?

That's the Fifth Amendment to the US Constitution... nor shall any person be deprived of Life, Liberty, or Property without due process of law...  If you are being deprived of your property outside the rules of due process, that is a violation of your Rights... it is a violation of the supreme law of the land...

You have the Sixth Amendment, which says that you are innocent, until proven guilty... in all criminal prosecutions the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation, to be confronted with witnesses against him, to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense....

Article 16 of the Massachusetts Constitution says you are innocent until proven guilty, no subject shall be arrested or imprisoned, or despoiled or deprived of his property, or be deprived of his Life, Liberty or estate, but by the judgment of his peers, or the judgment of the law... not just simply because they write a law, can they seize your property, that's not what this is saying,  it is saying that you have the right to a trial to be judged under the law... that way, the lawyers who write the laws don't become the legislators, the enforcers, and the executors at the same time... 

You have a Right to be assumed innocent,  you are innocent until proven guilty, by both federal and national standards... and State standards....

In Madison's essay "Property," I want you to listen very closely to the warning that he gives... this is not a just government, nor is property secured under it, where the property which a man has in his personal safety and personal liberty is violated by arbitrary seizures of one class of citizens, for the service of the rest....

He says, "a magistrate issuing his warrants to a press gang, would be in his proper functions in Turkey or Indostan," and they are the most.... they are the examples of the most complete despotism....

When your property is taken by arbitrary terms, James Madison says, you have a despotic government....

What about the Eighth Amendment?  Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments.... The Massachusetts Constitution contains the same provision in article 26... no magistrate or court of law shall demand excessive bail or sureties, impose excessive fines, or inflict cruel and unusual punishment...

In the Seventh Amendment, it says, in suits at common law where the value in controversy shall exceed $20, the right of a trial by jury shall be preserved....  In the Massachusetts Constitution under article 15, it says in all controversies concerning property, and in all suits between two or more parties, the parties have a right to a trial by jury...


I just showed you your Rights!!  Essential, Natural, Inalienable.... you have a Right to defend your Life, your Liberty, your Property... you have a Right to the Property itself...  you have a Right to be secure in that property, you have a Right to a government that respects your Rights, and is limited by the rules of due process... government can't take your Property without due process... if they're going to take your Property, you have a Right to a trial by jury... you have a Right to be innocent until proven guilty, and you have a Right to be free from arbitrary and despotic governments...


So let's look at these Red Flag Laws, because the RFLs say that any family member, any romantic involvement, past or present...  Can you imagine your ex having the power to take your Rights away?   Or any law enforcement officer, has the power to go to a judge, make a petition that says they FEEL you may be a danger to yourself, or to someone else... without your appearance in court.... without being able to face your accusers... without the obligation of the accuser to prove your guilt... the judge now issues a pseudo warrant that authorizes the government to come and take your property on completely unsubstantiated, arbitrary terms....

And then you are left... to stand before the government, and try to prove your innocence...

These RFLs take your Right to self-defense... they take your Property without due process... they are an unlawful, arbitrary search and seizure... they deny you of your Right to a trial...

I want you to see this is a taking of your Property... without due process... if you're driving down the road, and somebody calls the police officer from the neighboring town and hands them your the tag on your plate, and says "hey I want you to look for this car because I think they might be speeding sometime soon."  And the officer, because that's dangerous right?  You're a danger to yourself, and other people when you violate the speed limit.... how many people die every year because people violate traffic laws?  So now, the officer pulls you over because somebody thinks you might be a danger to yourself or to someone else in your vehicle... and as a defense of somebody else's accusation, they impound your car...

Do you think taking and impounding your entire vehicle is an excessive fine for speeding?  Why wouldn't taking your entire Property of your Right to self-defense, your Right to Property, your Right to due process, having your Rights violated by searches and seizures, your Right to a trial all eliminated from you... Why is that not considered an excessive fine?

[murmuring in the crowd]

And a cruel and unusual punishment?  And if that's not bad enough, our entire legal system has devolved to the simple Marxist principle of guilty until proven innocent... 

John Locke, the father of Liberty wrote, "if the innocent honest man must quietly quit all he has for peace sake, to him who lay violent hands upon it, I desire it may be considered, what kind of peace will they'll be in a world which consists only for the benefit of robbers and oppressors?"

If you have to violate my Rights to do your job, you are the criminal, not me... 


[applause from the audience]

And I will end with Patrick Henry, his famous "give me liberty or give me death speech," I think he's speaking to us today... because why do we have these Red Fag Laws?  We are told that we need them to keep us safe... we need them for a peaceful society... Patrick Henry says this, "what is it the gentleman asked, what is it the gentleman wish, what would they have?  Is life so dear, and peace so sweet, to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?"

You know what he's telling us... without Liberty your life is nothing but servitude... without Liberty, your peace will become your prison, and that's why he said, "forbid it Almighty God, I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me Liberty or give me death."

[rousing applause from the audience]

God Bless you, and thank you very much!

[musical outro]
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 11:18:39 am by EdJames »

Offline roamer_1

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #485 on: August 16, 2019, 11:02:39 am »
The link to the second tool gave me a nice block of text for editing...  thanks for that info, I was unaware of the tools!!

 :beer:

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Offline thackney

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #486 on: August 16, 2019, 11:31:58 am »
@EdJames

God Bless you for the time and effort.

I appreciate you.
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Offline thackney

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #487 on: August 16, 2019, 01:56:12 pm »
What I get from her speech is along the same lines I have suggested.  The standard for removing someone's firearms needs to be due process demonstrating a substantial and proven risk to others.  It needs to be of a level that it is beyond reasonable doubt.

The concept of a lower standard to remove the legal firearms is to devalue the right.

In my opinion, the level required to take away that right should be no less than level required to imprison or otherwise remove that person from open society.  No lower standard should be accepted.
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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #488 on: August 16, 2019, 02:02:30 pm »
What I get from her speech is along the same lines I have suggested.  The standard for removing someone's firearms needs to be due process demonstrating a substantial and proven risk to others.  It needs to be of a level that it is beyond reasonable doubt.

The concept of a lower standard to remove the legal firearms is to devalue the right.

In my opinion, the level required to take away that right should be no less than level required to imprison or otherwise remove that person from open society.  No lower standard should be accepted.

Absolutely agree with that and the same is true for ALL of our rights so why do we still have an income tax and the IRS which trample all over our fourth and fifth amendment rights?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 02:18:10 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline roamer_1

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #489 on: August 16, 2019, 02:07:55 pm »
What I get from her speech is along the same lines I have suggested.  The standard for removing someone's firearms needs to be due process demonstrating a substantial and proven risk to others.  It needs to be of a level that it is beyond reasonable doubt.

The concept of a lower standard to remove the legal firearms is to devalue the right.

In my opinion, the level required to take away that right should be no less than level required to imprison or otherwise remove that person from open society.  No lower standard should be accepted.

Precisely so - and the precedent once set, which other rights will be diminished by exception?
Speech? Can the mind police extend their grip to removing your speech by way of your supposed intent? This scurrilous path must be forever avoided.

Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #490 on: August 16, 2019, 02:08:52 pm »
Precisely so - and the precedent once set, which other rights will be diminished by exception?
Speech? Can the mind police extend their grip to removing your speech by way of your supposed intent? This scurrilous path must be forever avoided.


Bravo and  :amen:

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #491 on: August 16, 2019, 02:25:31 pm »
What I get from her speech is along the same lines I have suggested.  The standard for removing someone's firearms needs to be due process demonstrating a substantial and proven risk to others.  It needs to be of a level that it is beyond reasonable doubt.

The concept of a lower standard to remove the legal firearms is to devalue the right.

In my opinion, the level required to take away that right should be no less than level required to imprison or otherwise remove that person from open society.  No lower standard should be accepted.

The due process has to come before the seizure of anybody's property, not after.  The only lip-service I've seen to due process so far has been, "Seize first, with a government guarantee of due process later."  This is unacceptable.  It turns the standard, "innocent until proven guilty" on its head because the accused is put in the position of having to prove his innocence to get his property returned.  Possession remains 9/10ths of the law.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #492 on: August 16, 2019, 02:28:00 pm »
The due process has to come before the seizure of anybody's property, not after.  The only lip-service I've seen to due process so far has been, "Seize first, with a government guarantee of due process later."  This is unacceptable.  It turns the standard, "innocent until proven guilty" on its head because the accused is put in the position of having to prove his innocence to get his property returned.  Possession remains 9/10ths of the law.

And foremost in due process, lest we forget, is indictment for a crime

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #493 on: August 16, 2019, 02:35:58 pm »
And foremost in due process, lest we forget, is indictment for a crime

It's hard to have a proper Hearing without it.  We have an adversarial legal system, and it's hard to be adverse to nothing.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #494 on: August 16, 2019, 04:00:35 pm »
Precisely so - and the precedent once set, which other rights will be diminished by exception?
Speech? Can the mind police extend their grip to removing your speech by way of your supposed intent? This scurrilous path must be forever avoided.
But a red flag law on speech would mean you would be incarcerated because someone allegedly thinks you MIGHT say something (offensive/threatening violence/provoking violence/whatever), not because you actually said anything.

With preemptive regulations, no offense is necessary, only that someone says they think you might.

So they take your spoon because (someone says) you might eat too much ice cream (before you have any)

Or take your car because (someone says) you might go faster than the posted speed limit...

Or take your house because (someone says) you might turn it into a brothel....

That's the standard for action with this sort of law.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline roamer_1

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #495 on: August 16, 2019, 04:05:53 pm »
But a red flag law on speech would mean you would be incarcerated because someone allegedly thinks you MIGHT say something (offensive/threatening violence/provoking violence/whatever), not because you actually said anything.

With preemptive regulations, no offense is necessary, only that someone says they think you might.

So they take your spoon because (someone says) you might eat too much ice cream (before you have any)

Or take your car because (someone says) you might go faster than the posted speed limit...

Or take your house because (someone says) you might turn it into a brothel....

That's the standard for action with this sort of law.

That is exactly right - Once ever invoked, its expansion is unlimited.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #496 on: August 16, 2019, 04:16:09 pm »
That is exactly right - Once ever invoked, its expansion is unlimited.
And in order to get your stuff back you have to prove that their assertion was unfounded

In other words, prove your innocence, not of a crime that was committed, but that you were not going to commit one.

It's tough enough to prove you didn't do something (why the standard is innocent until proven guilty), but to prove that you would not do something that hasn't even been done? Good luck with that.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline roamer_1

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #497 on: August 16, 2019, 04:20:26 pm »
And in order to get your stuff back you have to prove that their assertion was unfounded

In other words, prove your innocence, not of a crime that was committed, but that you were not going to commit one.

It's tough enough to prove you didn't do something (why the standard is innocent until proven guilty), but to prove that you would not do something that hasn't even been done? Good luck with that.

Right... You can't prove a negative in the first place... Not to mention a negative twice removed...

How the hell can one be found guilty of a crime not yet committed?
That ANYONE would promote such a thing is just plain crazy.


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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #498 on: August 16, 2019, 04:32:21 pm »
And in order to get your stuff back you have to prove that their assertion was unfounded

In other words, prove your innocence, not of a crime that was committed, but that you were not going to commit one.

It's tough enough to prove you didn't do something (why the standard is innocent until proven guilty), but to prove that you would not do something that hasn't even been done? Good luck with that.

Yup.  If your stuff is seized, then it becomes your burden to get it back, reliant upon the tender mercies of a government that may have someone (like an officer serving the seizure order) who wants to keep that AK-47 in your collection for himself.  Or swap it out with one that has a dirty serial number.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: The Truly Insidious Nature of Red Flag Laws - KrisAnne Hall, JD
« Reply #499 on: August 16, 2019, 04:55:28 pm »
Right... You can't prove a negative in the first place... Not to mention a negative twice removed...

How the hell can one be found guilty of a crime not yet committed?
That ANYONE would promote such a thing is just plain crazy.

Mere possession of a firearm is not evidence that you would misuse it.

It isn't like someone with a kilo of controlled substance broken down into street level units for sale (possession with intent to distribute) because there is no proof of intent with the firearm, whereas the controlled substance being or having been (re)packaged for distribution is prima facie intent.

Even more dangerous is the idea that they might pull something akin to current Civil Asset Forfeiture, where the object is accused of a crime, just by being present, and seized. (Unconstitutional,  imho, and only upheld by the most perverted and contorted legal logic--in the end, a person is deprived of their property whether they were using it in or received it as the result of criminal activity or not)
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis