Obituaries for 2019

[TomSea]

Billy Drago, Actor in 'The Untouchables,' Dies at 73
Ryan Parker  MOVIES
4:18 PM PDT 6/26/2019 by

Courtesy of Photofest

Billy Drago in 'The Untouchables' (1985)
His career spanned four decades and he appeared in over 100 films, including Clint Eastwood's classic 1985 Western, 'Pale Rider.'

Billy Drago, best known for his work playing Al Capone's top henchman in The Untouchables, died Monday in Los Angeles, his rep told The Hollywood Reporter. He was 73.

Drago appeared in numerous films and TV shows over the years, including X-Files and Charmed, but he was most recognized for portraying real-life mobster Frank Nitti (always wearing a white suit) in the Brian De Palma 1987 classic.

At the time, THR's review of The Untouchables noted, "Also deserving praise on the bad guy's side is Billy Drago as the psycho, trigger-happy Frank Nitti — his mean and vicious glint is razor sharp." The character had a memorable rooftop demise at the hands of Eliot Ness, who was played by Kevin Costner.

Read more at: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/untouchables-actor-bill-drago-dies-at-73-1221296

[jmyrlefuller]

Max Wright
Actor best known for his role on ALF dies at 75


Wright is the tallest person in this screenshot.

Wright broke onto Broadway in 1968 and, transitioning to screen work in the early 1970s, found work as a bit actor in films and television series in the mid-70s to the mid-80s before landing what would be his signature role, that of patriarch Willie Tanner, on the family sitcom ALF. Wright would quickly grow to hate the role (as did many of his castmates, who found ALF's owner Paul Fusco extremely difficult to work with), which later factored into the show's ending.

Wright had been retired from acting since 2005. He died of lymphoma June 26.

Obituary from the Hollywood Reporter

Wikipedia

IMDB

[musiclady]

One of the best lines in the Untouchables.....

"Where's Nitti?"

"He's in the car."

Drago's acting was so good that I was horrified with myself that I was THRILLED when he went off that roof!

[TomSea]

Of course, the Untouchables TV show didn't have Drago but I think it had the Nitti character.

------

On to other news, Rest In Peace, Justin Raimondo has passed away.

He ran that "anti-war" website that I check fairly frequently for news articles, they'd assemble a lot of news to be aware of. I can't say I agree with a lot of their editorial views but if they are respectable and I think they were to others, I respect that.



Obit: https://original.antiwar.com/Antiwar_Staff/2019/06/27/justin-raimondo-rip-1951-2019/

That website, "Salon", see, they are just pretty nasty spirited. Then, let's say you have a website and magazine called "New Republic", though, liberal,  they don't seem to be a bunch of mean-spirited jerks like some are.

[TomSea]

More on Justin Raimondo, I didn't know that part about being a "gay activist"; it made me wonder, hmmm, but guess what? The National Review just came out with a tribute to him!

   Justin Raimondo, RIP
By Michael Brendan Dougherty
June 28, 2019 9:56 AM


Justin Raimondo (WIkimedia)

Justin Raimondo died yesterday at age 67 after struggling with cancer. His obituary is a must read just for the eye-popping detail about his boyhood confrontation with a Communist psychotherapist. Raimondo was a young radical libertarian, a gay-liberation activist, and an indefatigable support of Pat Buchanan’s presidential campaigns. Yes, you read that right.  His two great passions were preserving the memory of the pre–World War II American right, and his activist news portal, Antiwar.com, which has opposed every U.S. war and military intervention since its founding in 1995.

Raimondo could be a dogged nuisance to anyone he disagreed with. He was absolutely unbearable to Jonah Goldberg. Like his political idol, the radical libertarian Murray Rothbard, Raimondo always had some new cockamamie left–right alliance against the respectable people in mind. He did not care about the reputation of his allies, or his own reputation. He was proud to be a “deplorable” long before Clinton injected that phrase into our consciousness. In his hatred of the “war party” he would embrace conspiracy theories and indulge any number of kooks. He was irresponsible and he frequently exhibited bad judgement. He could also be extraordinarily sweet.

And I couldn’t help but love him. From roughly 2002 to 2006, I would refresh his website at midnight three nights a week waiting for his link-filled columns on the Iraq War. He gave me a thorough-but-wildly-biased introduction to the history of the American Right. One that got me interested in Alcove 1 on one side, or Albert Jay Nock on the other. In those columns he introduced me to America’s Californian poet Robinson Jeffers, who was something like an environmentalist, an isolationist, and a misanthrope. An acquired taste for sure, but for that alone I’m eternally grateful. Maybe it’s an odd thing, but it was this radical gay libertarian who led me, column by column, to the Russell Kirks, Whitaker Chambers, Irving Kristols. I learned to hate Woodrow Wilson from Justin. Being entertained, appalled, and darkly thrilled by his columns set me on the road to becoming a journalist, to taking ideas seriously. We are not alike at all, and yet I owe him so much. I will always retain his libertarian-flavored hatred of war, which grows government, is destructive of our liberties, and tears families apart. An unjust war is organized mass murder. Period.


Read more at: https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/justin-raimondo-rip/

BTW, if he was a big Buchanan supporter and Pat has any follow up, I'll post that too.  Justin seemed like an alright guy per many of his ventures and opinions. Be civil, that's good enough.

[truth_seeker]

Justin Raimondo reminds us, how ineffective a third Party Kook is typically.

[TomSea]

Justin Raimondo reminds us, how ineffective a third Party Kook is typically.

Or just ahead of his time? Is this in reference to Buchanan? If so...

Trump Is Pat Buchanan With Better Timing
September/October 2016

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/09/donald-trump-pat-buchanan-republican-america-first-nativist-214221

A lot of people would say Trump, the non-interventionist, populist angle, attitudes of being cautious of demographic change in America, immigration is similar to what Buchanan said... and I'm sure in the final analysis, someone said that before Buchanan.

If someone hasn't heard or seen the parallels with what Trump says to what Buchanan was saying, I don't know what to say. It's been talked of quite a bit.

Sometimes trailblazers set the trail and someone later is able to make more out of it.

@truth_seeker

[sneakypete]

 I will always retain his libertarian-flavored hatred of war, which grows government, is destructive of our liberties, and tears families apart. An unjust war is organized mass murder. Period.

@TomSea

Words that should be carved in stone everywhere,along with the words "There is never anything MORE necessary than a necessary war."

[jmyrlefuller]

Lou Alvarez
9/11 first responder dies at 53

Days before he died, Alvarez, a bomb-squad detective with the NYPD before being diagnosed with colon cancer in 2016, testified in front of Congress along with former television host Jon Stewart, demanding a renewal of the 9/11 Victim Compensation Fund.

Obituary from Fox News

Out of respect for the dead... my opinions on Alvarez's behavior and associations in his last days, I'll keep to myself.

[sneakypete]

"69 rounds of Chemo"

YIKES! One thing nobody can ever call him is a quitter! He was a tough man by anyone's standards.

[Cyber Liberty]

"69 rounds of Chemo"

YIKES! One thing nobody can ever call him is a quitter! He was a tough man by anyone's standards.

I can't begin to imagine that level of suffering, @sneakypete.   

[sneakypete]

I can't begin to imagine that level of suffering, @sneakypete.   

@Cyber Liberty

I doubt anyone can that understands what it means. Our minds protect us from things like that.

[Wingnut]

I can't begin to imagine that level of suffering, @sneakypete.   

You know though.  Sometimes you just have to say WTF?  Is this really worth it.  Let me die in effing peace. 

[sneakypete]

You know though.  Sometimes you just have to say WTF?  Is this really worth it.  Let me die in effing peace.

@The Ghost

It all depends on your age,your general health otherwise,and the likelihood of a cure. At 18 it makes sense to put up with whatever you have to put up with if there is a virtual guarantee you will come out the other side healed.

At 80 it doesn't because there is no such thing as "quality of life" for most people that age. They mostly spend all day sitting around waiting to die.

[Cyber Liberty]

@The Ghost

It all depends on your age,your general health otherwise,and the likelihood of a cure. At 18 it makes sense to put up with whatever you have to put up with if there is a virtual guarantee you will come out the other side healed.

At 80 it doesn't because there is no such thing as "quality of life" for most people that age. They mostly spend all day sitting around waiting to die.

As you say, in your 80's you have a rich treasure of memories, while the young do not.  The aged are far too dignified to be playing for such low stakes, the young don't care.  That's why we refuse to give up and fight the beasts when we get to be codgers.

Never give up, @sneakypete.  Never give in.  Never let the bastards get you down.

[sneakypete]

As you say, in your 80's you have a rich treasure of memories, while the young do not.  The aged are far too dignified to be playing for such low stakes, the young don't care.  That's why we refuse to give up and fight the beasts when we get to be codgers.

Never give up, @sneakypete.  Never give in.  Never let the bastards get you down.

@Cyber Liberty

The only person that ever gets me down is me. Indian/Scots-Irish blood makes me moody at times.

[TomSea]

Jerry Carrigan, drummer who worked with Elvis, George Jones, Joan Baez, dead at age 75
Matthew Leimkuehler, Nashville Tennessean Published 9:16 p.m. ET June 25, 2019

Jerry Carrigan, a celebrated session drummer heard on famed recordings from Elvis Presley, Waylon Jennings and Kenny Rogers, died last week, according to the Alabama Music Hall of Fame. He was 75.

Raised on Fats Domino and Little Richard, Carrigan began his Music City career at age 13, cutting a Nashville session with Little Joe Allen and the Off Beats.

A native of Florence, Alabama, Carrigan spent spent his early adult years at the notable FAME Studios in Muscle Shoals, Alabama, where he crafted a technique on sessions with early FAME breakouts Arthur Alexander and Jimmy Hughes.

Read more at: https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/2019/06/25/jerry-carrigan-celebrated-nashville-session-drummer-dead-age-75-elvis-presley/1566636001/

[jmyrlefuller]

Tyler Skaggs
Los Angeles Angels pitcher dies at 27



Skaggs, a pitcher who was in the starting rotation for the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim, was found dead in his hotel room prior to a game between the Angels and Texas Rangers. No cause of death has been given.

Obituary from ESPN

Wikipedia

Career stats

CC: @EasyAce

[sneakypete]

Tyler Skaggs
Los Angeles Angels pitcher dies at 27



Skaggs, a pitcher who was in the starting rotation for the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim, was found dead in his hotel room prior to a game between the Angels and Texas Rangers. No cause of death has been given.

 

He was obviously in good health.  Must have been something like an aneurysm that can't be predicted.

[GrouchoTex]

He was obviously in good health.  Must have been something like an aneurysm that can't be predicted.

@sneakypete
I would believe you will turn out to be correct.
Police ruled out suicide, pretty much immediately, which seems logical.
Also, no signs of foul play.
From all accounts I've read he seemed like a good guy, newly married, an upstanding young man, someone looking forward to his life and his career.
Sad when the young go.....so young.

[sneakypete]

@sneakypete
I would believe you will turn out to be correct.
Police ruled out suicide, pretty much immediately, which seems logical.
Also, no signs of foul play.
From all accounts I've read he seemed like a good guy, newly married, an upstanding young man, someone looking forward to his life and his career.
Sad when the young go.....so young.

@GrouchoTex

The ONLY positive thing that can ever come out of something like this is to remind young people of just have valuable and unpredictable live and death are,and to learn to appreciate and love life.

Truth to tell,people of all ages need to be reminded of this occasionally.

[GrouchoTex]

@GrouchoTex

The ONLY positive thing that can ever come out of something like this is to remind young people of just have valuable and unpredictable live and death are,and to learn to appreciate and love life.

Truth to tell,people of all ages need to be reminded of this occasionally.

Truer words, my friend, truer words.....

[Bigun]

@GrouchoTex

The ONLY positive thing that can ever come out of something like this is to remind young people of just have valuable and unpredictable live and death are,and to learn to appreciate and love life.

Truth to tell,people of all ages need to be reminded of this occasionally.

Many years ago I worked for Dow Chemical Company and everyone had a sticker on their hard hat that read "Life is Fragile! Handle with Care!" 

Might be a good time to get that more widely spread around.

[jmyrlefuller]

Lee Iacocca
Auto industry executive who saved Chrysler dies at 94



Beginning his career at the Ford Motor Company, Lido "Lee" Iacocca, the nephew of a hot dog stand owner, took about 20 years to rise to a level of prominence at Ford but once he got there, left an indelible mark on the company, including the design of the Ford Mustang, the Ford Pinto, the Mercury Marquis and the Mercury Cougar. It was a fatal flaw in the Pinto's design that ultimately led to Iacocca's 1978 firing.

Almost immediately, Chrysler wooed Iacocca to join their company. He quickly secured a government bailout, then, after acquiescing to the feds' demands, introduced the cars that would define Chrysler's style in the 1980s: the K-car and the minivan. Having done sales work for Ford in the 1950s, Iacocca decided to become a public face of the company by appearing in the company's ads with the tagline "If you can find a better car, buy it!" He led Chrysler's takeover of American Motors Corporation primarily to get his hands on the Jeep and, to a lesser extent, the AMC Eagle. He retired in 1992 and, as a result of a failed attempt to take over the company in 1995, was barred from speaking about Chrysler for the rest of the century.

Iacocca was 94.

Obit from the Los Angeles Times

Wikipedia

[Applewood]

Well, he didn't save Chrysler all by himself.  The taxpayers bailed out the company.  Iacocca just made sure the money didn't go down the rabbit hole. 

He did take on the unions which, despite Chrysler's impending bankruptcy, still demanded huge wages for the employees. 

Rest in peace, Mr. Iacocca.

[EasyAce]

Well, he didn't save Chrysler all by himself.  The taxpayers bailed out the company.  Iacocca just made sure the money didn't go down the rabbit hole. 

How very big of him to make sure it didn't go down the rabbit hole after he said, essentially, to American taxpayers, "You're not buying my cars the way I think you should, so I'm going to make you pay for them anyway."

That said, he did give us the Mustang. And he did at least show some stones in those Chrysler ads in which he'd say, "If you can find a better car, buy it."

RIP Mr. Iacocca.

[Applewood]

Arte Johnson, Master of Manic Characters on 'Laugh-In,' Dies at 90

Arte Johnson, the comic best known for the hilarious characters he created for the 1960s NBC smash hit Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In, has died. He was 90.

The 5-foot-4 Johnson, a master of ad libs, double-talk and dialects who was content to be a "second banana," died Wednesday at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center in Los Angeles of heart failure following a three-year battle with bladder and prostate cancer, his family announced.

Johnson cracked up Laugh-In audiences with his portrayal of Wolfgang, a former German storm trooper who muttered "Verry interesting" to the most cracked proposals (or, "Verry interesting … but stupid"). He said he got the idea for the character while watching Errol Flynn and Ronald Reagan battle the Nazis in the 1942 movie Desperate Journey.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/arte-johnson-dead-laugh-in-star-905754

***

 

Favorite Wolfgang line:  "We didn't lose the war.  We came in second." 

Rest in peace, Mr. Johnson and thank you for the laughs. 

[Cyber Liberty]

Arte Johnson, Master of Manic Characters on 'Laugh-In,' Dies at 90

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/arte-johnson-dead-laugh-in-star-905754

***

 

Favorite Wolfgang line:  "We didn't lose the war.  We came in second." 

Rest in peace, Mr. Johnson and thank you for the laughs.

 

[Victoria33]

The aged are far too dignified to be playing for such low stakes, the young don't care.  That's why we refuse to give up and fight the beasts when we get to be codgers.
Never give up, @sneakypete.  Never give in.  Never let the bastards get you down.
sneakypipe said: "At 80 it doesn't because there is no such thing as "quality of life" for most people that age. They mostly spend all day sitting around waiting to die."

@sneakypete
@Cyber Liberty

At 84, finished a book.  At 85, writing another one, "The New Testament - For Thinkers".  Teach a Bible Class, go to casinos and make money.  Help other people with the money I win.  At 84, Did teach English to Spanish Priest at our church until he was assigned to a church of his own.

I am too busy to die.  Am running for Miss America when I am 100.

[Applewood]

Another favorite from Arte Johnson, as the dirty old man with Ruth Buzzi as Gladys:


Error 404 (Not Found)!!1

[Cyber Liberty]

@sneakypete
@Cyber Liberty

At 84, finished a book.  At 85, writing another one, "The New Testament - For Thinkers".  Teach a Bible Class, go to casinos and make money.  Help other people with the money I win.  At 84, Did teach English to Spanish Priest at our church until he was assigned to a church of his own.

I am too busy to die.  Am running for Miss America when I am 100.

Meanwhile, I'm having the longest "lazy streak" of my life....enjoying retirement too much.

We're starting to get involved with the local GOP in the new berg.....

[jmyrlefuller]

Jared Lorenzen
Quarterback better known for his weight problems than his playing ability dies at 38

ny 13
Lorenzen's jersey number with the New York Giants

Lorenzen rose to fame as the starting quarterback of the Kentucky Wildcats college football team. He had a modest career in professional football, with his longest stretch being a four-year run as Eli Manning's backup on the New York Giants, during which he earned a Super Bowl ring for the team's upset of the Patriots in Super Bowl XLII. He finished his career in the minor indoor leagues, playing for various teams in Kentucky, earning league MVP honors in 2011 before being forced into retirement due to injury in 2014.

As much as his play drew attention, his unusual weight for a player at the quarterback position was as much of an attention-grabber, as Lorenzen bore more of a resemblance to the offensive and defensive linemen in front of him than a quarterback. At his playing peak, he was 280 pounds and by the end of his career he was over 300. He soon ballooned to over 500 pounds near the end of his life, though he had lost about 100 of that by the time of his death from an acute infection that aggravated his existing heart and kidney issues.

Obituary from WKYT

Wikipedia

NFL stats

[jmyrlefuller]

How very big of him to make sure it didn't go down the rabbit hole after he said, essentially, to American taxpayers, "You're not buying my cars the way I think you should, so I'm going to make you pay for them anyway."

The way I read it... it was more like:

"I came into this company. It's flailing because their cars stink. You give me a loan, I'll give you better cars you'll actually want to buy, and I'll pay off the loan."

And he did.

[Cyber Liberty]

The way I read it... it was more like:

"I came into this company. It's flailing because their cars stink. You give me a loan, I'll give you better cars you'll actually want to buy, and I'll pay off the loan."

And he did.

You mean K-Cars?

[rustynail]

Kentucky football legend Jared Lorenzen dies at 38.

[EasyAce]

The way I read it... it was more like:

"I came into this company. It's flailing because their cars stink. You give me a loan, I'll give you better cars you'll actually want to buy, and I'll pay off the loan."

And he did.

If you mean the K cars, they did save Chrysler---for a short while. In time they were seen for what they really were: not very good cars at all. Chrysler didn't really start making good cars again until the "cab forward" cars from the late 1990s through the mid-2000s. (I had one, a 2005 Dodge Intrepid. Excellent car.)

[Cyber Liberty]

If you mean the K cars, they did save Chrysler---for a short while. In time they were seen for what they really were: not very good cars at all. Chrysler didn't really start making good cars again until the "cab forward" cars from the late 1990s through the mid-2000s. (I had one, a 2005 Dodge Intrepid. Excellent car.)

Not sure I know what "cab forward" means?

[EasyAce]

Not sure I know what "cab forward" means?

That's what I had---but in black with a beige interior. Excellent car to drive and roomy enough for a big galoot like me.

[dfwgator]

Jared Lorenzen
Quarterback better known for his weight problems than his playing ability dies at 38

ny 13
Lorenzen's jersey number with the New York Giants

Lorenzen rose to fame as the starting quarterback of the Kentucky Wildcats college football team. He had a modest career in professional football, with his longest stretch being a four-year run as Eli Manning's backup on the New York Giants, during which he earned a Super Bowl ring for the team's upset of the Patriots in Super Bowl XLII. He finished his career in the minor indoor leagues, playing for various teams in Kentucky, earning league MVP honors in 2011 before being forced into retirement due to injury in 2014.

As much as his play drew attention, his unusual weight for a player at the quarterback position was as much of an attention-grabber, as Lorenzen bore more of a resemblance to the offensive and defensive linemen in front of him than a quarterback. At his playing peak, he was 280 pounds and by the end of his career he was over 300. He soon ballooned to over 500 pounds near the end of his life, though he had lost about 100 of that by the time of his death from an acute infection that aggravated his existing heart and kidney issues.

Obituary from WKYT

Wikipedia

NFL stats

Awww man,  I remember when he played against UF, surprisingly fleet of foot for his size.   

[sneakypete]

If you mean the K cars, they did save Chrysler---for a short while. In time they were seen for what they really were: not very good cars at all. 

@EasyAce

What they WERE,was exactly what they needed to be. Affordable,economical,and a good buy for the money spent.

IMHO,the one thing that hurt Chrysler more than anything in their history was the team of idiot engineers that came up with the brain fart known as "lean burn". Suddenly,you had slant 6 Valiants and Aspen stationwagons that HAD been getting over 20 MPH,getting 6 MPH and didn't have enough power to get out of the way of a bus. Lots of them running so hot in the thin air and high altitude that they would boil away the water in the radiator.

I was working at a Chrysler dealership out in Denver  in 77 and bought a used 1 year old Cordoba (BEAUTIFUL cars! Comfortable,too!) with the 360 engine in it,and the damn thing never got over 8 mpg. We even put it up on the lift in the service department with the engine running at different RPM,and walked around under it looking for gas leaks.

There were customers in their 60's who had never in their lives owned a car that wasn't a Dodge,or buying a new car that didn't come from that dealership swear off ever buying another one.

All this thanks to the Lean Burn,and if you took it off and modified the timing and adjusted the carb,you killed your warranty.

[sneakypete]

Awww man,  I remember when he played against UF, surprisingly fleet of foot for his size.   

@dfwgator

Anybody have any idea why he weighed so much? Was it glandular?

[jmyrlefuller]

@dfwgator

Anybody have any idea why he weighed so much? Was it glandular?

He was always on the heavy side (he liked to joke that he came out of the womb at 13 pounds) but it really was the leg injury he sustained at the end of his career that really sent his weight into a (almost literal) death spiral. Football was just about the only thing that was keeping him at a moderately overweight level as opposed to morbidly obese; when he couldn't move or exercise the way he used to, he just piled on the pounds.

He did have quite the appetite, too, from what I understand, though some of that might just be humor on his part.

[EasyAce]

@EasyAce

What they WERE,was exactly what they needed to be. Affordable,economical,and a good buy for the money spent.

Except that they turned out not to be. I knew a few people who bought those K cars. More headaches than Bayer has aspirin.

[Smokin Joe]

You mean K-Cars?

Actually, the iconic vehicle of soccer moms everywhere, the minivan.

[sneakypete]

Except that they turned out not to be. I knew a few people who bought those K cars. More headaches than Bayer has aspirin.

@EasyAce

And I know a few people that bought them and loved them.

[mountaineer]

Holocaust survivor and beloved Hoosier Eva Kor dies at 85
London Gibson, Indianapolis Star
Published 11:28 a.m. ET July 4, 2019 | Updated 12:54 p.m. ET July 4, 2019

Holocaust survivor and beloved Hoosier Eva Mozes Kor died this morning just miles from the Auschwitz concentration camp, seventy-five years after first arriving there as a victim of torture under the Nazi regime.

Kor died at 7:10 a.m., local time, in Krakow, Poland. She was in the middle of leading an educational summer trip with the CANDLEs Holocaust Museum and Education Center. By guiding participants through the concentration camp haunted with her most difficult memories, Kor was doing what she did best: educating others by telling them her story.  ...

Known for her strength and advocacy after suffering in Auschwitz during World War II, Kor preached forgiveness, even to the Nazis who tortured her. ...

Kor was 10 years old when her family was taken to Auschwitz. Her mother, father and two older sisters were killed in a gas chamber, but Eva and her twin sister Miriam were chosen to become subjects for experimentation. The Nazi “Angel of Death” Dr. Josef Mengele tortured the twins for months, injecting them with mixtures of germs.

Decades later, she found a way to forgive him, and spent decades more telling her story.  ...

IndyStar

[mountaineer]

Affinity Konar's novel, Mischling, is very loosely based on the imprisonment of Eva and her twin sister at Auschwitz. I read it, and it's excellent.

[Cyber Liberty]

Actually, the iconic vehicle of soccer moms everywhere, the minivan.

I checked out the Caravan when it first came out.  It was only available in a 4-cylinder, so I asked the fellow at the dealership if somebody in Deetroit had been smoking crack.  An engine that can barely move a compact in a minivan.   

[Applewood]

I checked out the Caravan when it first came out.  It was only available in a 4-cylinder, so I asked the fellow at the dealership if somebody in Deetroit had been smoking crack.  An engine that can barely move a compact in a minivan.   

My  brother had a Grand Caravan, I think it was called.  Big thing.  He bought in the early 1990s and it ran well into the 2000s.  Great for road trip vacations.  Could really fit people, luggage, beer, souvenirs and a whole lot of other stuff in it.  And it could really move on an interstate.  I know nothing about cars, vans and such, but it was an awesome wagon.  Bro put plenty of miles on it.   

He has something else now -- not sure what.   Has fancy *bleep* such as a rear view camera in it, but I don't think it's anything nearly as good as  his old Caravan. 

[Cyber Liberty]

My  brother had a Grand Caravan, I think it was called.  Big thing.  He bought in the early 1990s and it ran well into the 2000s.  Great for road trip vacations.  Could really fit people, luggage, beer, souvenirs and a whole lot of other stuff in it.  And it could really move on an interstate.  I know nothing about cars, vans and such, but it was an awesome wagon.  Bro put plenty of miles on it.   

He has something else now -- not sure what.   Has fancy *bleep* such as a rear view camera in it, but I don't think it's anything nearly as good as  his old Caravan.

I always suspected they changed the engine situation as soon as they started to get competition from Ford.  I could not have been the only potential buyer to laugh at them and walk away.  I would not be surprised if the sales guy lied to me about what's being made, just so he could push his inventory.