Should prostitution be legal?

[Dexter]

Do you believe that the people of each State through their elected representatives should have the liberty to decide whether or not prostitution should be legal in their State?

Sure, but that’s not the disagreement we are discussing.

[Dexter]

@roamer_1

OK,fair enough. I am going to make a rule that REQUIRES YOU to engage prostitutes.

Turn about is fair play.

LOL!

[sneakypete]

They actually do this in Germany.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/1482371/If-you-dont-take-a-job-as-a-prostitute-we-can-stop-your-benefits.html

@Hoodat

Germany is not America. Apples and oranges.

[Hoodat]

Sure, but that’s not the disagreement we are discussing.

I look forward to using this against you in future debates.

[roamer_1]

@roamer_1

OK,fair enough. I am going to make a rule that REQUIRES YOU to engage prostitutes.

Turn about is fair play.

Go ahead... If you can get that through your county and/or state, more power to ya.
I don't have to visit.

[sneakypete]

Absolutely wrong.
He is advocating federal imposition by dictate.
I am advocating local dictate by representatives who live here.

Both are legislating morality.

@roamer_1

Yet you seem to think you hold the moral high ground.

[Dexter]

I look forward to using this against you in future debates.

Can we continue discussing whether or not prostitution should be legal? Legalization through the states is fine.

[Hoodat]

@Hoodat

Germany is not America. Apples and oranges.

America doesn't have national legalization of prostitution either.  Oranges and apples.

[musiclady]

That is not true. It degrades culture and degrades women. I have grandchildren here.

Bullshit sommore. Libertarianism is directly couched in federalism. Civil-libertarianism (Goldwater conservative) is not against law. It is *FOR* law and order. It prefers local law to all others. within the strict confines of an originalist reading of the Constitution, and the constitutions of the various states respectively, with sovereignty housed as close to the people as possible.

What you propose stinks of liberal anarchism, not to be confused with libertarian principles in the least.

Your first mistake is in the abject failure to recognize what prostitution does to a community - To the degradation of women's honor. What it does to promote adultery and divorce, and how it tears families to pieces. To sanction prostitution is to lend it credence - to favor it over the welfare of families and a decent environment to raise children. It endorses broken homes.

Your second mistake is to lend even more power to an overweening federal government, wishing for a federal decree to enforce your ludicrous proposal - No libertarian of any stripe would endorse that.

If you want to try it, then go where it is already legal, or change it where you are. You have zero right to impose it upon me and mine by federal fiat.

And don't try to wrap yourself in libertarianism anymore. It makes your ass look big.

This is an outstanding post, @roamer_1 .

Thank you for every word of it!

[roamer_1]

@roamer_1

Yet you seem to think you hold the moral high ground.

I said no such thing. I don't give a crap what you do where you are, just don't impose it over here.
That way, you can suffer the consequence of your actions, and I can go merrily on my way.

[Dexter]

He is advocating federal imposition by dictate.
I am advocating local dictate by representatives who live here.

Both are legislating morality.

I made no such indication. I am fine with state legalization, so let’s continue our disagreement on legal prostitution.

[Hoodat]

Can we continue discussing whether or not prostitution should be legal? Legalization through the states is fine.

Discuss away.  But at least be honest about it.  Don't try BS'ing us about how wonderful it will be for society.

[sneakypete]

America doesn't have national legalization of prostitution either.  Oranges and apples.

@Hoodat

And?

[Hoodat]

@Hoodat

And?

It is asinine to come up with a hypothetical about prostitution being legal in America, and then when someone brings up a real example of a country that has legal prostitution, to blurt out 'apples and oranges'.

[Dexter]

Discuss away.  But at least be honest about it.  Don't try BS'ing us about how wonderful it will be for society.

I think sometimes what works best isn’t ideal, but what matters is results. Taking that business from the black market would save police resources and make the process safer. There would still be issues obviously, but they would be mitigated.

[roamer_1]

This is an outstanding post, @roamer_1 .

Thank you for every word of it!

 

[Dexter]

It is asinine to come up with a hypothetical about prostitution being legal in America, and then when someone brings up a real example of a country that has legal prostitution, to blurt out 'apples and oranges'.

You didn’t respond to what I said about your link.

[roamer_1]

I made no such indication. I am fine with state legalization, so let’s continue our disagreement on legal prostitution.

Then no... It is against the very aegis by which western civilization was instituted... By which any civility is instituted. To provide a safe place for women and children and to provide for their defense.

[Dexter]

Then no... It is against the very aegis by which western civilization was instituted... By which any civility is instituted. To provide a safe place for women and children and to provide for their defense.

You don’t think legalized prostitution would help keep women and children safe in any way? The opposite even? Can you explain your logic in detail?

[Hoodat]

You didn’t respond to what I said about your link.

I find it odd that you would say that considering the numerous post queries to you on the other threads that went unanswered.

But since you made a point of it, I went back to find what I had not seen before:

An isolated incident in another country, and the article says it’s unclear if the unnamed woman lost her benefits. I’d say there is a pretty good chance she didn’t. I also think Germany would be interested in fixing an oversight like that. This is not an argument. Women would not be forced into the sex industry by the government.

The point is that such a policy does exist in Germany.  And if you had actually read the article, you would see that this is to be the case.  It even shows the same argument you give about reducing crime:

The government had considered making brothels an exception on moral grounds, but decided that it would be too difficult to distinguish them from bars. As a result, job centres must treat employers looking for a prostitute in the same way as those looking for a dental nurse.

When the waitress looked into suing the job centre, she found out that it had not broken the law. Job centres that refuse to penalise people who turn down a job by cutting their benefits face legal action from the potential employer.

"There is now nothing in the law to stop women from being sent into the sex industry," said Merchthild Garweg, a lawyer from Hamburg who specialises in such cases. "The new regulations say that working in the sex industry is not immoral any more, and so jobs cannot be turned down without a risk to benefits."

Miss Garweg said that women who had worked in call centres had been offered jobs on telephone sex lines. At one job centre in the city of Gotha, a 23-year-old woman was told that she had to attend an interview as a "nude model", and should report back on the meeting. Employers in the sex industry can also advertise in job centres, a move that came into force this month. A job centre that refuses to accept the advertisement can be sued.

Tatiana Ulyanova, who owns a brothel in central Berlin, has been searching the online database of her local job centre for recruits.

"Why shouldn't I look for employees through the job centre when I pay my taxes just like anybody else?" said Miss Ulyanova.

Ulrich Kueperkoch wanted to open a brothel in Goerlitz, in former East Germany, but his local job centre withdrew his advertisement for 12 prostitutes, saying it would be impossible to find them.

Mr Kueperkoch said that he was confident of demand for a brothel in the area and planned to take a claim for compensation to the highest court. Prostitution was legalised in Germany in 2002 because the government believed that this would help to combat trafficking in women and cut links to organised crime.

[roamer_1]

I think sometimes what works best isn’t ideal, but what matters is results. Taking that business from the black market would save police resources and make the process safer. There would still be issues obviously, but they would be mitigated.

Your hypothesis is unproven and declared a priori.

[Dexter]

I find it odd that you would say that considering the numerous post queries to you on the other threads that went unanswered.

But since you made a point of it, I went back to find what I had not seen before:

The point is that such a policy does exist in Germany.  And if you had actually read the article, you would see that this is to be the case.  It even shows the same argument you give about reducing crime:

I doubt that lady actually lost her benefits and I am sure Germany fill fix the oversight. Women here would not be forced into prostitution.

[Dexter]

Your hypothesis is unproven and declared a priori.

We should look up whether or not black market prostitution has gone down in places that have legalized brothels. We should also check to see what safety precautions are taken for all involved and whether or not it actually makes the process safer. What do you think we will find?

[roamer_1]

You don’t think legalized prostitution would help keep women and children safe in any way? The opposite even? Can you explain your logic in detail?

Legitimizing whores legitimizes johns... It makes it all OK.
It is not OK. There is a reason that prostitution is generally in disfavor across all of history.
It is bad for marriage, and bad for women, leads to sexual addictions and perversions, and destroys families.

And ultimately it goes to the honor of women, degrading them, which degrades everything they do, from motherhood to grandmother-hood. From the child all the way to the matriarch. It is dishonorable and always has been. Why do you think that is?

[roamer_1]

We should look up whether or not black market prostitution has gone down in places that have legalized brothels. We should also check to see what safety precautions are taken for all involved and whether or not it actually makes the process safer. What do you think we will find?

You are welcome to. I don't need to.

You need only look to the West when it was a frontier.
Whores were all there was to begin with.
Why do you think they eventually went away as the towns and counties began to spring up?

[Sanguine]

This may help:

Human trafficking thrives in legal brothels | Charleston
https://www.rgj.com/story/opinion/voices/2018/10/09/human-trafficking-thrives-legal-brothels-charleston/1578611002/

Oct 9, 2018 ... I was trafficked into Nevada's legal brothels. Legal prostitution worldwide is known to facilitate human traffickers by giving them legal access to ...
Lyon County Sheriff says sex workers in brothels showed signs of ...
https://www.rgj.com/story/news/local/mason-valley/2018/10/18/audit-shows-lack-brothel-enforcement/1684633002/

Oct 18, 2018 ... Lyon County Sheriff says 30% of sex workers in brothels showed signs of ... 18 were issued to Southern Nevada residents and 168 cards were issued to ... detective-led investigation to determine if they were being trafficked.”.

How do we know that the women in Nevada Brothels are not victims ...
https://www.quora.com/How-do-we-know-that-the-women-in-Nevada-Brothels-are-not-victims-of-trafficking

The women in Nevada's legal brothels are not trafficked. ... Laws state every sex workers employed by brothels must be of legal age, have work cards, paid fair ...
Immigration violations, possible sex trafficking found at Nevada ...

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-nevada-prostitution/immigration-violations-possible-sex-trafficking-found-at-nevada-brothels-idUSKCN1MG00T

Oct 5, 2018 ... An investigation of three legal Nevada brothels owned by a reality TV star ... reality TV show “Cathouse” about prostitutes at one of his brothels, ...
New study shows why brothels should be outlawed - The Nevada ...
https://thenevadaindependent.com/article/new-study-shows-why-brothels-should-be-outlawed/

May 17, 2018 ... Prostitution and sex trafficking are not separate “activities. ... similar risk of being trafficked as a person trafficked in areas without legal brothels.

Nevada's Legal Brothels Make Workers Feel Safer - NYTimes.com
https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/04/19/is-legalized-prostitution-safer/nevadas-legal-brothels-make-workers-feel-safer

Jan 23, 2014 ... Nevada's model is worth considering, but there are plenty of models of legal prostitution throughout the world to draw from, and lots of research ...

Las Vegas pimps look for women of all ages for sex trafficking ...
https://www.reviewjournal.com/local/local-las-vegas/downtown/las-vegas-pimps-look-for-women-of-all-ages-for-sex-trafficking-prostitution/

Apr 22, 2016 ... Sex trafficking in Nevada is defined as the inducing or forcing of a person to engage in prostitution. However, when it comes to adult sex ...

[Hoodat]

I doubt that lady actually lost her benefits and I am sure Germany fill fix the oversight.

Based on what?  Your feelings?  You do this quite a bit.  You state assumptions without producing a scintilla of evidence supporting it.  Here you say that you are sure - sure that Germany fixed the oversight.  So what if they didn't?  What then?

Women here would not be forced into prostitution.

Women in Germany aren't forced into prostitution.  Some are simply given a choice of taking a prostitution job or having their unemployment benefits cut off.

[Sighlass]

Yeah, lets turn the US into a pre-WW2 Berlin... what could go wrong with that? /s

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2847643/Berlin-liberal-hotbed-homosexuality-mecca-cross-dressers-transsexuals-male-female-surgery-performed-Nazis-came-power-new-book-reveals.html

[Hoodat]

Germany a 'sex tourism hotspot'
Relaxed attitude to prostitution has resulted in Germany attracting sex tourists from France, Italy and beyond to visit its brothels


 Germany has become a sex tourism hotspot thanks to the legalisation of prostitution, the country's leading feminist campaigner has warned.

Alice Schwarzer, whose book "Prostitution – a German scandal" was published last week, says sex tourists from France, Italy and Scandinavia travel to Germany to visit its brothels.

They are attracted by a relaxed approach to prostitution and legal brothels such as Cologne's Pascha, the largest brothel in Europe, she explained.

"Germany today is a 'sex paradise' for foreigners – thanks to the 2002 reform which permitted conditions that our neighbouring countries are amazed at: large brothels with low fees and flat rates, and 'wellness' brothels," Ms Schwarzer said.

"Foreigners travel from as far as Scandinavia and France by the busload."

~snip~

Feminist magazine "Emma", published by Ms Schwarzer, this month launched a campaign to get prostitution banned in Germany once again

~snip~

 Estimates put the total number of sex workers in Germany at anywhere between 400,000 and one million.

According to Ms Schwarzer's research, only five per cent are German, with the rest coming from Eastern Europe and Africa.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/10452246/Germany-a-sex-tourism-hotspot.html



Imagine that.   Feminists opposed to legalized prostitution.

[Dexter]

Based on what?  Your feelings?  You do this quite a bit.  You state assumptions without producing a scintilla of evidence supporting it.  Here you say that you are sure - sure that Germany fixed the oversight.  So what if they didn't?  What then?


Women in Germany aren't forced into prostitution.  Some are simply given a choice of taking a prostitution job or having their unemployment benefits cut off.

You are assuming the opposite. The article is inconclusive so it’s useless. That would not happen here. I think it’s preposterous to think it would.

[roamer_1]

You are assuming the opposite. The article is inconclusive so it’s useless. That would not happen here. I think it’s preposterous to think it would.

Forty years ago marriage was sure and lasting, bastard children and single parent homes were few... A single income provided for a family, and women stayed home to care for children and gardens and schools, and churches.

Imagine all that 'would not happen here' from their perspective.

[Hoodat]

It won't happen here because no States are going to suddenly legalize prostitution.  Perhaps they are following Sweden's example.

[Hoodat]

Forty years ago marriage was sure and lasting, bastard children and single parent homes were few... A single income provided for a family, and women stayed home to care for children and gardens and schools, and churches.

And then one day, liberals took over.

[roamer_1]

And then one day, liberals took over.

And they keep trying to tell us it's so much better. 

[sneakypete]

Based on what?  Your feelings?  You do this quite a bit.  You state assumptions without producing a scintilla of evidence supporting it.  Here you say that you are sure - sure that Germany fixed the oversight.  So what if they didn't?  What then?


Women in Germany aren't forced into prostitution.  Some are simply given a choice of taking a prostitution job or having their unemployment benefits cut off.

@Hoodat

Ok,so in anal places like Germany,don't legalize prostitution. De-criminalize it.  The prime difference being that gives the government no authority to make it a job classification.

[sneakypete]

Germany a 'sex tourism hotspot'


Alice Schwarzer, whose book "Prostitution – a German scandal" was published last week, says sex tourists from France, Italy and Scandinavia travel to Germany to visit its brothels.

@Hoodat

I have a  hard time believing that men from France,Italy,and Scandinavia can't find prostitutes at home,and have to go to Germany to rent a woman.

[Dexter]

@Hoodat

I have a  hard time believing that men from France,Italy,and Scandinavia can't find prostitutes at home,and have to go to Germany to rent a woman.

Kinda sounds like those countries need to legalize too. If I was going to use a service like that I might bother to travel for it because a regulated sex establishment would make me feel a lot safer.

[Hoodat]

@Hoodat

I have a  hard time believing that men from France,Italy,and Scandinavia can't find prostitutes at home,and have to go to Germany to rent a woman.

The distances from Paris to Cologne, Copenhagen to Berlin, and Milan to Munich are all comparable to the distance from LA to Las Vegas, the outskirts of which have a legal prostitution industry fed by clients traveling to Vegas for a fun time.

So yes, people travel to Colorado to have a weed vacation.  People travel to Atlantic City to have a gambling vacation.  And people who formerly traveled to Thailand for a sex vacation now go to Germany.

[mirraflake]

Forty years ago marriage was sure and lasting, bastard children and single parent homes were few... A single income provided for a family, and women stayed home to care for children and gardens and schools, and churches.

Imagine all that 'would not happen here' from their perspective.

And houses of prostitution where everywhere. My small town had at least 3-4. Today there are none. Lot's of married men back then used prostitutes if their wife shut them off. Men kept their mouths shut.

Today these married men have affairs instead of using prostitutes. It has reversed.

@roamer_1

[GtHawk]

Not nearly as much.

Because it turned out so well with marijuana in the states that legalized it?

[roamer_1]

And houses of prostitution where everywhere. My small town had at least 3-4. Today there are none. Lot's of married men back then used prostitutes if their wife shut them off. Men kept their mouths shut.

Today these married men have affairs instead of using prostitutes. It has reversed.

@mirraflake
Nah. The nearest whorehouse  to here was over in Wallace Idaho. In fact, having traveled up and down the Rockies, NoDAk, SODak, and across the southern Midwest into the South, That is the only whorehouse I was aware of - And I was of the sort to be aware of such things.

[Dexter]

Because it turned out so well with marijuana in the states that legalized it?

Marijuana use among teens actually dropped slightly in states that have legalized. It also created a ton of tax revenue.

[goodwithagun]

The legal businesses that open up and take over the demand for prostitution will pay taxes.

You did not read a thing no I typed. Bye, Felicia.

[Absalom]

Suggest waiting till April Fools Day to raise this absurdity.
A core premise of Principled Conservatism is that the Family Unit
is the bedrock of civilization and so by extension, its nation/state,
its social order and as well as its political structure.
Do divorce, homosexuality, prostitution, among many bad behaviors
advance the well being of the Family Unit?????
Too harebrained for words!!!

[TomSea]

Not all libertarian belief systems are that way, but I do think some libertarians can impose their own belief system such as in this case. You are still imposing your beliefs on others that heck, prostitution is a victimless crime, heroin abuse can be seen in this way.  So, why not legalize it?  A lot of flyover country would severely disagree with this, it would have to be federal law I gather. If one believes in this concept, try and get your state, county and so on to legalize it, don't impose it on me. I'd think only 20% OR less would want to see prostitution legal. Forget pimps and all of that, that's mainly in the big cities and doesn't affect that many of us.

[roamer_1]

Suggest waiting till April Fools Day to raise this absurdity.
A core premise of Principled Conservatism is that the Family Unit
is the bedrock of civilization and so by extension, its nation/state,
its social order and as well as its political structure.
Do divorce, homosexuality, prostitution, among many bad behaviors
advance the well being of the Family Unit?????
Too harebrained for words!!!

Exactly right... As I said upthread, it is against the very purpose of civil union.
Well said.
 

[berdie]

I'm late to this thread (as usual) But I did read the whole thing and found it interesting @Dexter .

Although you have stated that this is not a federal issue the very implication of tax and regulation suggests federal involvement. It's a state issue...they can tax and regulate as well. I even went so far to look at Nevada laws regarding this. It was pretty interesting and complicated. If a state votes it down...so be it. One of the last interventions by the Feds in Texas came on same sex marriage . The state voted it down. The Feds said "Too bad". I don't agree with that. It's not their place in this matter. 10th Amendment and all that pesky stuff.

You ask if legalization would be good? No, I don't think so.  Why would it? Why sanction something that by it's very nature invites depravity and criminal activity? I really don't think the government, state or local, can regulate those things.
I'll leave out moral objections for the sake of this argument. I do believe that if you give an inch...the mile is the limit.

There is a post on the thread that says people in Europe go to countries  where prostitution is legal. So even not all countries in Europe think it's a good idea. Evenly more importantly, I know that Europeans regard the US as backwards, backwoods and provincial.  I wish I cared.

[sneakypete]

Suggest waiting till April Fools Day to raise this absurdity.
A core premise of Principled Conservatism is that the Family Unit
is the bedrock of civilization and so by extension, its nation/state,
its social order and as well as its political structure.
Do divorce, homosexuality, prostitution, among many bad behaviors
advance the well being of the Family Unit?????
Too harebrained for words!!!

@Absalom

You  are confusing conservatism with the fascism of organized religion.

[TomSea]

Just some perspective, this is sort of how one cartoonist viewed Ron Paul per making some of these libertarian-like claims. It's nothing new and I certainly do not mean all libertarians see things that way.

[Absalom]

@Absalom

You  are confusing conservatism with the fascism of organized religion.

---------------------------------
Sneaky, a respectful demurral.
The precept that the Family Unit anchors civilization is not derived from any Religion;
rather it's derived from the Natural Law, whose concepts existed the first day of Man.