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rangerrebew

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USS Fitzgerald junior officer enters no plea in arraignment for court-martial

The Navy destroyer USS Fitzgerald, which was involved in a collision with a merchant ship Saturday, June 17, 2017, is seen at Yokosuka Naval Base, Japan, Sunday, June 18, 2017.

TYLER HLAVAC/STARS AND STRIPES


By DIANNA CAHN | STARS AND STRIPES Published: July 23, 2018

WASHINGTON — Lt. Natalie Combs did not enter a plea Monday at her arraignment for a general court-martial on charges stemming from the deadly collision involving the USS Fitzgerald Navy destroyer last year.

As the ship’s tactical action officer, she is charged with negligent dereliction of duty resulting in death and negligent hazarding of a vessel regarding the June 17, 2017, collision of the Fitzgerald and a merchant vessel off the coast of Japan. Seven sailors were killed.

https://www.stripes.com/news/uss-fitzgerald-junior-officer-enters-no-plea-in-arraignment-for-court-martial-1.539086

Offline jpsb

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In properly trained and no eyeballs on deck. The real blame lies much higher up.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 11:38:38 am by jpsb »

Offline sneakypete

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USS Fitzgerald junior officer enters no plea in arraignment for court-martial

The Navy destroyer USS Fitzgerald, which was involved in a collision with a merchant ship Saturday, June 17, 2017, is seen at Yokosuka Naval Base, Japan, Sunday, June 18, 2017.

TYLER HLAVAC/STARS AND STRIPES


By DIANNA CAHN | STARS AND STRIPES Published: July 23, 2018

WASHINGTON — Lt. Natalie Combs did not enter a plea Monday at her arraignment for a general court-martial on charges stemming from the deadly collision involving the USS Fitzgerald Navy destroyer last year.

As the ship’s tactical action officer, she is charged with negligent dereliction of duty resulting in death and negligent hazarding of a vessel regarding the June 17, 2017, collision of the Fitzgerald and a merchant vessel off the coast of Japan. Seven sailors were killed.

https://www.stripes.com/news/uss-fitzgerald-junior-officer-enters-no-plea-in-arraignment-for-court-martial-1.539086

@rangerrebew

I'll tell you who is negligent,and that's the goober that decided to put an 0-2 in charge of a warship at night with all the brass asleep and no adult supervision.
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Offline jpsb

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@rangerrebew

I'll tell you who is negligent,and that's the goober that decided to put an 0-2 in charge of a warship at night with all the brass asleep and no adult supervision.

@sneakypete

I find it unbelievable that the US Navy does not have a watch at night. And by a watch I mean
eyeballs port and starboard. Eyeballs would have seen that container ship miles away.

I read that about ten years ago in order to save $$$ the Navy stopped training it's young officers
in basic seamanship. The Navy out sourced that responsibility to the ship. So we have untrained
young officers steering the ship at night without eyeballs on deck. Insane.

As I said the real blame is much higher up.


I don't know about the Navy, but in the USMC a yellow bar is a second Lt. O-1
OOD LT Coppock

« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 02:44:43 pm by jpsb »

Offline sneakypete

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@sneakypete

Quote
I find it unbelievable that the US Navy does not have a watch at night. And by a watch I mean
eyeballs port and starboard. Eyeballs would have seen that container ship miles away.

I read that about ten years ago in order to save $$$ the Navy stopped training it's young officers
in basic seamanship.

@jpsb

Say WHAT? That's the equivalent of not training pilots to fly or land.


Quote
I don't know about the Navy, but in the USMC a yellow bar is a second Lt. O-1
OOD LT Coppock

I have always seen Naval 0-1's listed a LTJG,for Lt,junior grade,and naval 0-2's listed as Lt's.

Not that it makes any difference. Only an idiot would suggest a 0-2 is qualified to command a war ship at sea at night. The job of Lt's EVERYWHERE is to learn the job.

My apologies. I just went back and read my initial post,and the mistake was mine because the press identifed her as a LT,and I hadn't looked at her photo.

BTW,where is the congressional and senate left fems on this issue? I haven't heard a squeak from them. Is that poor 0-1 a registered Republican?


« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 03:45:33 pm by sneakypete »
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rangerrebew

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I don't know about the Navy, but in the USMC a yellow bar is a second Lt. O-1
OOD LT Coppock


The gold bar/0-1 in the Navy is a full ensign.  Navy Lt. is a Marne capt.

Offline sneakypete

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@sneakypete


Hard to believe so I looked for the article

In 2003, the Navy ended the required months of navigation schooling and instead gave junior officers a packet of CDs containing self-paced lessons.

https://www.stripes.com/news/how-high-tech-navy-went-off-course-on-basic-seamanship-skills-1.490992

@jpsb

Looks to me like some administrative Admiral bleep made an executive decision to do this,and that young woman,due to no fault of her own,is going to have to take the fall for it.  There are no bigger asshats on the planet than Naval officers. I grew up in the Virginia Beach/Norfolk area of Virginia,and had a lot of classmates whose fathers were in the Navy.

Which is what led me to enlist in the Army.
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Offline sneakypete

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The gold bar/0-1 in the Navy is a full ensign.  Navy Lt. is a Marne capt.

@rangerrebew

You HAVE to be wrong about this. I don't know a ensign from a stop sign,but USMC Captains are 0-3's,just like Army Captains,and regardless of branch of service a 0-1 is the lowest rank an officer can hold,and the next step up is 0-2. In the army,this would be 0-1= Second Lieutenant and 0-2= First Lieutenant. 
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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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@rangerrebew

You HAVE to be wrong about this. I don't know a ensign from a stop sign,but USMC Captains are 0-3's,just like Army Captains,and regardless of branch of service a 0-1 is the lowest rank an officer can hold,and the next step up is 0-2. In the army,this would be 0-1= Second Lieutenant and 0-2= First Lieutenant.

He's right.


A "gold bar" 0-1 in the Navy is an Ensign.  In the Corps, a 2nd Lt.

A "silver bar" 0-2 in the Navy is a Lt. (jg.).  In the Corps, a 1st Lt.

Railroad tracks 0-3 in the Navy is a Lt.   In the Corps, a Capt.

I say this as a guy who graduated from the Naval Academy, and went Marine option.  So I oughta know!

 :flag:


Offline Night Hides Not

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In properly trained and no eyeballs on deck. The real blame lies much higher up.

Respectfully disagree. As an 0-1 with less than a year time in grade, I was the platoon leader  for two Chaparral platoons in Germany. I had several assigned extra duties, plus pulling Staff Duty Officer at least twice a week.

Within an hour of my first tac eval, the Air Force Wing Commander tabbed me as his unofficial POC on NBC warfare inputs, after his expert, an AF Captain overreacted to an input, and I made the right recommendation.

IOW, once you pin on the brass, you assume the responsibility.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 04:41:26 am by Night Hides Not »
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rangerrebew

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He's right.


A "gold bar" 0-1 in the Navy is an Ensign.  In the Corps, a 2nd Lt.

A "silver bar" 0-2 in the Navy is a Lt. (jg.).  In the Corps, a 1st Lt.

Railroad tracks 0-3 in the Navy is a Lt.   In the Corps, a Capt.

I say this as a guy who graduated from the Naval Academy, and went Marine option.  So I oughta know!

 :flag:

Thanks for the post.  It saved me some time. :patriot:

Offline sneakypete

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Respectfully disagree. As an 0-1 with less than a year time in grade, I was the platoon leader  for two Chaparral platoons in Germany. I had several assigned extra duties, plus pulling Staff Duty Officer at least twice a week.

Within an hour of my first tac eval, the Air Force Wing Commander tabbed me as his unofficial POC on NBC warfare inputs, after his expert, an AF Captain overreacted to an input, and I made the right recommendation.

IOW, once you pin on the brass, you assume the responsibility.

@Night Hides Not

Rank matters very little compared to competence once you get away from the flag pole. I personally know of Sgt E-5's that worked as company commanders of indigenous infantry companies in combat with NVA Regular infantry units.

The thing is there is no such critter as "getting away from the flag pole" on a Naval Vessel,and any solid hit can result in the deaths of everyone aboard,and the destruction of a multi-million dollar weapons system to boot.

NO junior officer should EVER be put in command,virtual or actual,of a warship at sea unless every officer senior to him or her has already be killed or severely wounded and there are no other options.

AND.....,most importantly of all,NO junior officer that has command thrust upon them should EVER be court-martialed for failure to perform at a level in a possible/actual combat position they have neither the experience nor the education to  to hold. Anybody that can state they expect an 0-1 or 0-2 to act with the experience or professionalism of a 0-4  or 0-5 is both a fool and a liar.

This really pisses me off. I see it as just one more example of the sorry MoFo's in command in the Navy covering each others asses and throwing junior officers to the sharks in order to do it.

I have NEVER heard of a combat command where the ultimate responsibility for the lives and safety,as well as the performance of the command did NOT rest on the shoulders of the senior officer in formal command at the time. The US Navy should be,but wont be,ashamed of themselves.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 02:22:49 pm by sneakypete »
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Offline sneakypete

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Respectfully disagree. As an 0-1 with less than a year time in grade, I was the platoon leader  for two Chaparral platoons in Germany. I had several assigned extra duties, plus pulling Staff Duty Officer at least twice a week.

Within an hour of my first tac eval, the Air Force Wing Commander tabbed me as his unofficial POC on NBC warfare inputs, after his expert, an AF Captain overreacted to an input, and I made the right recommendation.

IOW, once you pin on the brass, you assume the responsibility.

@Night Hides Not

NOT the same thing as taking command of a modern warship at sea. Not even close. At times in VN,Laos,or Cambodia, I was taking over temporary command of infantry platoons in combat,and even that is not even close to taking over command of a warship at sea,even in peace time. Warships are VERY complex weapons systems,and it takes years of experience to even be able to begin to be competent to take unsupervised command of one.

The equivalent in the US Army or the USMC would be for a buck sgt to take over command of an infantry or armor brigade on the move in suspected hostile territory.

There is NO excuse for that ship's commander to have not have had an experienced 0-3 or 0-4 on night duty to be in overall command of the bridge that could be called awake instantly and assume command of the ship if anything unusual came up. My knowledge of naval ships  doesn't go much further than to state "they are supposed to float",but even I strongly suspect there is a small cabin on the bridge of anything the size  of a destroyer or larger for the ships actual commander during the day or the watch commander at night to catch a nod.take a dump,etc,etc,etc, and be on instant call if something seems to be happening outside the experience level of any junior officer who may be in temporary command while the 0-3 or 0-4 is napping.

There really should be a court-martial for dereliction of duty for that ship's commander going on right now,not that poor 0-1. The FACT that the 0-1 is a woman even does more to convince me that the PC Navy is protecting a commander with powerful friends and/or relatives up the US Government chain of command.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 02:37:31 pm by sneakypete »
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Offline Suppressed

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There really should be a court-martial for dereliction of duty for that ship's commander going on right now,not that poor 0-1. The FACT that the 0-1 is a woman even does more to convince me that the PC Navy is protecting a commander with powerful friends and/or relatives up the US Government chain of command.

The CO is charged with negligent homicide.
@sneakypete
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Offline sneakypete

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The CO is charged with negligent homicide.
@sneakypete

@Suppressed

Ahhh,I did not know that? Thank you,that makes it better,although it still doesn't excuse the charges against the junior officer.
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rangerrebew

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When asked if the non-judicial punishment against Benson (C.O), Babbitt (X.O) and Baldwin (Senior enlisted man) would be career ending, Moran said: "Look at what happened here -- it's going to be pretty hard to recover from this." Moran said investigations were continuing but he declined to speculate on whether courts martial might be pursued against any of the Fitzgerald's crew.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2017/08/17/navy-fires-3-leaders-uss-fitzgerald-wake-deadly-collision.html
« Last Edit: July 28, 2018, 11:48:00 am by rangerrebew »

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When asked if the non-judicial punishment against Benson (C.O), Babbitt (X.O) and Baldwin (Senior enlisted man) would be career ending, Moran said: "Look at what happened here -- it's going to be pretty hard to recover from this." Moran said investigations were continuing but he declined to speculate on whether courts martial might be pursued against any of the Fitzgerald's crew.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2017/08/17/navy-fires-3-leaders-uss-fitzgerald-wake-deadly-collision.html

Since then:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/16/politics/ex-navy-commanders-criminal-charges-collisions/index.html
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Offline sneakypete

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When asked if the non-judicial punishment against Benson (C.O), Babbitt (X.O) and Baldwin (Senior enlisted man) would be career ending, Moran said: "Look at what happened here -- it's going to be pretty hard to recover from this." Moran said investigations were continuing but he declined to speculate on whether courts martial might be pursued against any of the Fitzgerald's crew.

 

@rangerrebew

"Senior Enlisted Man..."

WTF? Since when have enlisted men,even senior enlisted men been making command decisions in the Navy?
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Offline Axeslinger

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@rangerrebew

"Senior Enlisted Man..."

WTF? Since when have enlisted men,even senior enlisted men been making command decisions in the Navy?

@sneakypete
The four people generally found to be culpable when there is command wide dysfunction aboard a navy ship are: 

The CO
The XO
The Command Master Chief (senior enlisted)
And if it’s really a CF (and especially if it’s a ship handling issue), The first Lieutenant

It’s been that way forever and will continue to be that way.
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Offline sneakypete

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@sneakypete
The four people generally found to be culpable when there is command wide dysfunction aboard a navy ship are: 

The CO
The XO
The Command Master Chief (senior enlisted)
And if it’s really a CF (and especially if it’s a ship handling issue), The first Lieutenant

It’s been that way forever and will continue to be that way.

@Axeslinger

Looks like they would have to give CMC's command authority first,doesn't it?

I wonder if the US Navy has ever found an Admiral to be in fault in the last 100 years or so?
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Offline Night Hides Not

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@Axeslinger

Looks like they would have to give CMC's command authority first,doesn't it?

I wonder if the US Navy has ever found an Admiral to be in fault in the last 100 years or so?

Does the Captain of the USS Indianapolis count? Talk about a miscarriage of justice.
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Offline sneakypete

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Does the Captain of the USS Indianapolis count? Talk about a miscarriage of justice.

@Night Hides Not

Well,he wasn't an Admiral.

You are right about him being screwed,though. IMHO,they ordered him court-martialed so he would have no credibility when saying he was following orders.

Admirals protecting Admirals.
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