Author Topic: Royal Happenings (Read 518110 times)

libertybele · « **Reply #2250 on:** June 05, 2022, 03:20:27 pm »

I love how Charles enjoyed having Louis on his lap. Louis is indeed a pistol! Kate and William have their hands full.

libertybele · « **Reply #2251 on:** June 05, 2022, 06:16:31 pm »

Queen Elizabeth II makes surprise appearance on palace balcony to cap off jubilee

ritain's Queen Elizabeth II made a surprise appearance on the balcony of Buckingham Palace on Sunday, as part of the final day of celebrations to mark her historic 70-year reign.
The Queen had skipped events on Friday and Saturday -- a thanksgiving service at St Paul's Cathedral and an afternoon at Epsom racecourse -- after experiencing "discomfort" during the opening day parade on Thursday.
The Queen was flanked by three generations of her family -- Prince Charles and his wife, Camilla, the Duchess of Cornwall, as well as Prince William and Catherine, the Duchess of Cambridge, and their three children -- to the delight of thousands who had gathered along the Mall for the once-in-a-lifetime jubilee event.

The crowd roared as the 96-year-old monarch -- dressed in a vibrant green and clutching her cane -- emerged with a broad smile and surveyed the patriotic sea of Union Jack flag-waving well-wishers before her. ............

https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/05/uk/queen-elizabeth-ii-appearance-jubilee-day-four-intl-gbr/index.html

libertybele · « **Reply #2252 on:** June 05, 2022, 06:19:06 pm »

Right_in_Virginia · « **Reply #2253 on:** June 05, 2022, 06:59:03 pm »

Ah.....memories

libertybele · « **Reply #2254 on:** June 05, 2022, 07:01:19 pm »

Quote from: Right_in_Virginia on June 05, 2022, 06:59:03 pm

Ah.....memories

I love the pics. I don't see how Kate keeps a straight face around Louis.

Right_in_Virginia · « **Reply #2255 on:** June 05, 2022, 07:05:25 pm »

Quote from: mystery-ak on June 05, 2022, 11:00:02 am

Harry and Meghan host 'relaxed and casual' first birthday party for Lilibet at Frogmore Cottage with Royal children invited to garden party with games, cake and picnic food, as family watch Jubilee Party from Windsor

I'm betting the grifters will sell their photos from this party ..... and anything else from "behind the scenes".

Right_in_Virginia · « **Reply #2256 on:** June 05, 2022, 07:24:01 pm »

Emotional Queen says she is 'humbled and deeply touched' as she thanks the millions who celebrated her Platinum Jubilee - after greeting crowds from the Buckingham Palace balcony to bring 4-day spectacular to a close

*The monarch was absent for much of the Bank Holiday weekend, after finding the first day enjoyable but tiring
*In a message of thanks, the 96-year-old acknowledged this but said her 'heart' had been with well-wishers
*The Queen expressed her hope that this 'renewed sense of togetherness' would be felt for years to come
*She was 'humbled and deeply touched' so many had taken part in celebrations marking her 70-year reign .
*Surrounded by her family, she was cheered by thousands of well-wishers after stepping on to the balcony
*She was joined by Prince Charles, Camilla, the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge, George, Charlotte and Louis

More: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10886821/Platinum-Jubilee-2022-Shes-Queen-confirmed-Buckingham-Palace.html

Right_in_Virginia · « **Reply #2257 on:** June 05, 2022, 07:35:46 pm »

Right_in_Virginia · « **Reply #2258 on:** June 05, 2022, 07:37:07 pm »

Right_in_Virginia · « **Reply #2259 on:** June 05, 2022, 07:52:13 pm »

Right_in_Virginia · « **Reply #2260 on:** June 05, 2022, 07:55:03 pm »

Right_in_Virginia · « **Reply #2261 on:** June 05, 2022, 08:06:40 pm »

Prince Harry and Meghan Markle 'jet back to America an hour BEFORE the Queen's Platinum Jubilee ended'

Harry and Meghan have departed the UK and flown back to America an hour before the Queen's Platinum Jubilee celebration ended, it is believed.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10887321/Prince-Harry-Meghan-Markle-jet-America-hour-Queens-Platinum-Jubilee-ended.html

libertybele · « **Reply #2262 on:** June 05, 2022, 08:08:09 pm »

Quote from: Right_in_Virginia on June 05, 2022, 08:06:40 pm

Prince Harry and Meghan Markle 'jet back to America an hour BEFORE the Queen's Platinum Jubilee ended'

Harry and Meghan have departed the UK and flown back to America an hour before the Queen's Platinum Jubilee celebration ended, it is believed.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10887321/Prince-Harry-Meghan-Markle-jet-America-hour-Queens-Platinum-Jubilee-ended.html

libertybele · « **Reply #2263 on:** June 05, 2022, 08:21:50 pm »

All the Photos from Queen Elizabeth's Platinum Jubilee Celebration

https://www.harpersbazaar.com/celebrity/latest/g40118394/photos-queen-elizabeth-platinum-jubilee/?slide=30

Right_in_Virginia · « **Reply #2264 on:** June 05, 2022, 08:52:14 pm »

Really nice photo of the Queen ....

Right_in_Virginia · « **Reply #2265 on:** June 05, 2022, 08:54:16 pm »

Right_in_Virginia · « **Reply #2266 on:** June 05, 2022, 09:12:13 pm »

Eugenie's adorable baby .... (what's your excuse now for leaving early and missing this H&M?)

Princess Eugenie described the Jubilee Pageant as 'incredible', writing on her Instagram: '
The Platinum Jubilee Pageant was just incredible. To all the people that took part, organised it,
made it flawless for us all watching, Thank you. You made us all so proud'

Right_in_Virginia · « **Reply #2267 on:** June 05, 2022, 09:22:24 pm »

mystery-ak · « **Reply #2268 on:** June 05, 2022, 10:11:43 pm »

Quote from: Right_in_Virginia on June 05, 2022, 08:06:40 pm

Prince Harry and Meghan Markle 'jet back to America an hour BEFORE the Queen's Platinum Jubilee ended'

Harry and Meghan have departed the UK and flown back to America an hour before the Queen's Platinum Jubilee celebration ended, it is believed.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10887321/Prince-Harry-Meghan-Markle-jet-America-hour-Queens-Platinum-Jubilee-ended.html

So I guess Will and Kate didn't get to see the babies....shameful...

mystery-ak · « **Reply #2269 on:** June 06, 2022, 04:55:53 pm »

‘Harry and Meghan are no longer stars’: Royal experts say Sussexes left Jubilee early after monarchy 'moved on' without them and 'should learn their lesson' after 'fabulous' four days showed 'how wrong they were to do Oprah interview'

The Duke and Duchess of Sussex arrived back in Santa Barbara, California on Sunday after departing the UK
It is believed the couple left UK an hour before Jubilee Pageant began on Sunday and missed the Queen's appearance on the balcony at Buckingham Palace
Harry and Meghan attended the Thanksgiving service, but were absent from most key Jubilee moments
Their children Lilibet and Archie were not seen, but baby equipment could be seen being offloaded from the private jet when they arrived back in America
Latest Platinum Jubilee news as the Queen celebrates 70 years of service

By Martin Robinson, Chief Reporter

Published: 09:12 EDT, 6 June 2022 | Updated: 09:36 EDT, 6 June 2022

Prince Harry and Meghan Markle left the Queen's Platinum Jubilee early because the Royal Family has 'moved on' without them and the couple are not the stars that they think they are, experts told MailOnline today.

The Duke and Duchess of Sussex will have been 'really fed up' at being sidelined by the palace's 'men in suits' they have been so scathing about since quitting in 2020, it has been claimed.

And as they were met with some booing at their only public appearance at St Paul's on Friday, the couple will have learned that the British public believe being a royal is 'about service, not about self', one critic said. Another told MailOnline: 'Their attitude seems to be if we’re not centre stage we don’t really want to be here'.

more
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10889037/Harry-Meghan-no-longer-stars-Royal-experts-say-Sussexes-left-Jubilee-early.html

mystery-ak · « **Reply #2270 on:** June 06, 2022, 04:57:47 pm »

EXCLUSIVE: Presents from the family? Harry and Meghan touch down in California with blue child-size scooter and wooden swing set similar to one given to William and Kate by Prince Charles

EXCLUSIVE
Harry and Meghan have returned to California after attending Queen’s Jubilee with a blue scooter and swing s
The Duke and Duchess of Sussex's luggage was seen being unloaded by their team with baby equipment
Archie and Lilibet not seen during festivities but Lilibet reportedly met the Queen and had her birthday in UK
Latest Platinum Jubilee news as the Queen celebrates 70 years of service
Latest Platinum Jubilee news as the Queen celebrates 70 years of service

By Charlotte Mclaughlin and Martin Robinson Chief Reporter For Mailonline

Published: 14:03 EDT, 6 June 2022 | Updated: 16:13 EDT, 6 June 2022

Harry and Meghan's entourage were seen with a blue child-size scooter and wooden swing set which looked similar to the one gifted to William and Kate by Prince Charles.

The Duke and Duchess of Sussex appear to have come home with presents from their family after they left the Platinum Jubilee before festivities ended on Sunday and missed the Queen on the balcony.

A member of their team was seen carrying a wooden swing with rope coming out of it and covered by a blue wrapping as Harry and Meghan's team loaded their luggage from Santa Barbara Airport as their private jet touched down on Sunday evening.

more
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10890111/Harry-Meghan-touch-California-wooden-swing-set-similar-one-gifted-Cambridges.html

Kamaji · « **Reply #2271 on:** June 06, 2022, 04:58:48 pm »

Quote from: mystery-ak on June 06, 2022, 04:55:53 pm

‘Harry and Meghan are no longer stars’: Royal experts say Sussexes left Jubilee early after monarchy 'moved on' without them and 'should learn their lesson' after 'fabulous' four days showed 'how wrong they were to do Oprah interview'

The Duke and Duchess of Sussex arrived back in Santa Barbara, California on Sunday after departing the UK
It is believed the couple left UK an hour before Jubilee Pageant began on Sunday and missed the Queen's appearance on the balcony at Buckingham Palace
Harry and Meghan attended the Thanksgiving service, but were absent from most key Jubilee moments
Their children Lilibet and Archie were not seen, but baby equipment could be seen being offloaded from the private jet when they arrived back in America
Latest Platinum Jubilee news as the Queen celebrates 70 years of service

By Martin Robinson, Chief Reporter

Published: 09:12 EDT, 6 June 2022 | Updated: 09:36 EDT, 6 June 2022

Prince Harry and Meghan Markle left the Queen's Platinum Jubilee early because the Royal Family has 'moved on' without them and the couple are not the stars that they think they are, experts told MailOnline today.

The Duke and Duchess of Sussex will have been 'really fed up' at being sidelined by the palace's 'men in suits' they have been so scathing about since quitting in 2020, it has been claimed.

And as they were met with some booing at their only public appearance at St Paul's on Friday, the couple will have learned that the British public believe being a royal is 'about service, not about self', one critic said. Another told MailOnline: 'Their attitude seems to be if we’re not centre stage we don’t really want to be here'.

more
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10889037/Harry-Meghan-no-longer-stars-Royal-experts-say-Sussexes-left-Jubilee-early.html

Poor little snowflakes

mystery-ak · « **Reply #2272 on:** June 06, 2022, 05:30:05 pm »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Csk7vxodRY&ab_channel=TheIndependent

Right_in_Virginia · « **Reply #2273 on:** June 06, 2022, 06:29:38 pm »

Quote

Harry was then photographed in the passenger seat of a black Range Rover that had arrived to transport the family home, and looked very serious after almost five days away from the US.

Right_in_Virginia · « **Reply #2274 on:** June 06, 2022, 06:43:09 pm »

Charles' Tribute to "Mummy" The Queen --- (Video}

https://youtu.be/Xc_6Puwa4mc

Right_in_Virginia · « **Reply #2275 on:** June 06, 2022, 06:58:07 pm »

Steve asked if I knew the meaning behind the kleenex in her hair.

libertybele · « **Reply #2276 on:** June 06, 2022, 07:12:02 pm »

Quote from: Right_in_Virginia on June 06, 2022, 06:58:07 pm

Look what they released today ..... Guess they know they need some good press.

Prince Harry and Duchess Meghan Share Adorable New Birthday Portrait of Baby Lilibet
Harpers, Jun 6, 2022

@mystery-ak
@Gefn
@libertybele

It was asinine and ridiculous that they couldn't have stayed a few days longer and celebrated Lili's b'day after the Jubilee. Having the b'day when they did was nothing more than them wanting the focus to be all about them! CA suits them; London not so much.

So far she looks more like Harry with the reddish hair. She's cute enough, but meh... I'm not a fan of her parents (poor child).

Right_in_Virginia · « **Reply #2277 on:** June 06, 2022, 07:18:07 pm »

Royal Source Accuses Harry and Meghan of ‘Overshadowing’ Queen’s Jubilee With Abrupt Exit
"WOULD IT HAVE KILLED THEM?’"
Daily Beast, Jun 6, 2022

There was widespread astonishment in royal circles Monday after it was confirmed that Meghan and Harry left Britain by private jet before the platinum jubilee celebrations were finished, delivering a snub to the queen and organizers of the event.

A friend of the royals expressed the irritation felt by many at what was perceived by some to be a churlish and attention-grabbing departure, telling The Daily Beast on Monday, “So much for not overshadowing the queen. Would it have killed them to wait a few hours?”

As The Daily Beast reported Sunday, the couple boarded a private jet an hour before the big jubilee pageant in central London began, landing back in Los Angeles at 6 p.m. local time Sunday.

A source told The Sun, “They just left.”

While there had been suspicions that the couple perhaps didn’t have the best experience of the jubilee, spending much of the celebrations hidden away behind closed doors, and not invited to many of the weekend’s most significant events, their decision to flee the country while the queen’s life was being celebrated by 6,000 military and civilian performers in central London looks distinctly churlish.

They were in the air, crossing the Atlantic, when the queen emerged on the Buckingham Palace balcony at 5 p.m. for her surprise balcony appearance with Prince Charles and Prince William, both of whom Harry has publicly criticized.

More: https://www.thedailybeast.com/meghan-markle-and-prince-harry-accused-of-overshadowing-the-jubilee-with-early-exit

Right_in_Virginia · « **Reply #2278 on:** June 06, 2022, 07:20:02 pm »

Quote from: libertybele on June 06, 2022, 07:12:02 pm

It was asinine and ridiculous that they couldn't have stayed a few days longer and celebrated Lili's b'day after the Jubilee. Having the b'day when they did was nothing more than them wanting the focus to be all about them! CA suits them; London not so much.

So far she looks more like Harry with the reddish hair. She's cute enough, but meh... I'm not a fan of her parents (poor child).

Ditto

libertybele · « **Reply #2279 on:** June 06, 2022, 07:22:30 pm »

Quote from: Right_in_Virginia on June 06, 2022, 07:18:07 pm

Royal Source Accuses Harry and Meghan of ‘Overshadowing’ Queen’s Jubilee With Abrupt Exit
"WOULD IT HAVE KILLED THEM?’"
Daily Beast, Jun 6, 2022

There was widespread astonishment in royal circles Monday after it was confirmed that Meghan and Harry left Britain by private jet before the platinum jubilee celebrations were finished, delivering a snub to the queen and organizers of the event.

A friend of the royals expressed the irritation felt by many at what was perceived by some to be a churlish and attention-grabbing departure, telling The Daily Beast on Monday, “So much for not overshadowing the queen. Would it have killed them to wait a few hours?”

As The Daily Beast reported Sunday, the couple boarded a private jet an hour before the big jubilee pageant in central London began, landing back in Los Angeles at 6 p.m. local time Sunday.

A source told The Sun, “They just left.”

While there had been suspicions that the couple perhaps didn’t have the best experience of the jubilee, spending much of the celebrations hidden away behind closed doors, and not invited to many of the weekend’s most significant events, their decision to flee the country while the queen’s life was being celebrated by 6,000 military and civilian performers in central London looks distinctly churlish.

They were in the air, crossing the Atlantic, when the queen emerged on the Buckingham Palace balcony at 5 p.m. for her surprise balcony appearance with Prince Charles and Prince William, both of whom Harry has publicly criticized.

More: https://www.thedailybeast.com/meghan-markle-and-prince-harry-accused-of-overshadowing-the-jubilee-with-early-exit

Churlish and very childish. They should be ashamed of themselves. I feel so heartbroken for the Queen.

mystery-ak · « **Reply #2280 on:** June 06, 2022, 09:09:43 pm »

I guess we can't see Archie...maybe on his birthday...

Both kids have red hair..from Harry...but where did he get it....

mystery-ak · « **Reply #2281 on:** June 06, 2022, 09:16:14 pm »

Another birthday pic and the end of this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wGNw1Pjpyw&ab_channel=Sunrise

libertybele · « **Reply #2282 on:** June 06, 2022, 09:17:52 pm »

Quote from: mystery-ak on June 06, 2022, 09:09:43 pm

I guess we can't see Archie...maybe on his birthday...

Both kids have red hair..from Harry...but where did he get it....

I've been wondering the same thing.... just never posted that thought.

libertybele · « **Reply #2283 on:** June 06, 2022, 09:26:12 pm »

Quote from: mystery-ak on June 06, 2022, 09:16:14 pm

Another birthday pic and the end of this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wGNw1Pjpyw&ab_channel=Sunrise

I listened to the commentary -- ugh .... quit making excuses for the grifters. They snubbed the Queen and the rest of their family and they were ticked that they didn't draw the attention that they were hoping to. Using Lili's b'day as an excuse to try and draw controversy. Shame on them for not staying over a day or two which would enable the rest of her family to celebrate.

mystery-ak · « **Reply #2284 on:** June 06, 2022, 09:29:29 pm »

Quote from: libertybele on June 06, 2022, 09:26:12 pm

I listened to the commentary -- ugh .... quit making excuses for the grifters. They snubbed the Queen and the rest of their family and they were ticked that they didn't draw the attention that they were hoping to. Using Lili's b'day as an excuse to try and draw controversy. Shame on them for not staying over a day or two which would enable the rest of her family to celebrate.

Agreed..she could have had the party today for the whole family....but maybe she did it this way because no one cared anymore?..they're tired of being played by these two?....hmmm!

libertybele · « **Reply #2285 on:** June 06, 2022, 09:41:58 pm »

Quote from: mystery-ak on June 06, 2022, 09:29:29 pm

Agreed..she could have had the party today for the whole family....but maybe she did it this way because no one cared anymore?..they're tired of being played by these two?....hmmm!

Markle again I believe felt that she and Lili should have received as much attention as the Queen and I'm sure she was seething with jealousy because Kate, William and children received most of the attention. (Though negative things are coming out about Louis behavior).

libertybele · « **Reply #2286 on:** June 06, 2022, 09:45:06 pm »

Kate -- thanking friends and family for celebrating the Queen's Jubilee.... (I still don't know how to post tweets)

https://www.today.com/parents/parents/prince-william-kate-middleton-acknowledge-prince-louis-behavior-platin-rcna32102

mountaineer · « **Reply #2287 on:** June 06, 2022, 10:03:32 pm »

Quote from: mystery-ak on June 06, 2022, 09:09:43 pm

Both kids have red hair..from Harry...but where did he get it....

Hewitt?

mystery-ak · « **Reply #2288 on:** June 06, 2022, 10:08:04 pm »

Quote from: mountaineer on June 06, 2022, 10:03:32 pm

Hewitt?

mystery-ak · « **Reply #2289 on:** June 06, 2022, 10:14:31 pm »

Quote

(Though negative things are coming out about Louis behavior).

Well I have seen this behavior before....my oldest son and now my grandson.....ADHD..

If you have ever had a child with it you can spot other children right away....

I brought Mike in to watch the video of Louis...he said.."that kid has ADHD" before I said anything..lol

mystery-ak · « **Reply #2290 on:** June 06, 2022, 10:15:03 pm »

https://twitter.com/KensingtonRoyal/status/1533786153148628992

mystery-ak · « **Reply #2291 on:** June 07, 2022, 09:55:37 am »

Queen 'banned Harry and Meghan from having a photographer capture the moment she met her great-granddaughter Lilibet'

The Queen 'banned Sussexes from having photo of Monarch meeting Lilibet'
It is believed the 96-year-old met Harry and Meghan's daughter on Thursday
The couple was reportedly denied having a private photographer there

By Chris Matthews For Mailonline

Published: 20:58 EDT, 6 June 2022 | Updated: 02:28 EDT, 7 June 2022

The Queen reportedly banned Harry and Meghan from having a photographer snap the Monarch meeting her great-granddaughter Lilibet for the first time.

The 96-year-old is said to have met Harry and Meghan's daughter on Thursday.

The Duke and Duchess of Sussex wanted a private photographer to capture the moment their daughter met her namesake, The Sun reported.

However, they were allegedly told 'no chance' because it was a 'private family meeting'.

Palace insiders may have worried any photos taken by Harry and Meghan would be shared with TV networks in the US.

more
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10891179/Queen-banned-Harry-Meghan-having-photographer-capture-moment-met-Lilibet.html

mystery-ak · « **Reply #2292 on:** June 07, 2022, 10:13:58 am »

Now I see why the Queen banned photos...looky here

Quote

Inside Lilibet's first birthday party: Meghan and Harry's 'intimate backyard picnic' with face paint, cake by wedding baker and photographer who took pregnancy snaps among Frogmore guests - as Sussexes are slammed 'for trying to picture Queen meeting'

New picture released of Lilibet by the Duke and Duchess of Sussex on her first birthday at Frogmore Cottage
Harry and Meghan were said to have hosted a 'relaxed' garden party for Lilibet which her cousins attended
The Lilibet picture was taken by photographer and friend of couple Misan Harriman, who attended the picnic
While the Sussexes were back in the UK for the Platinum Jubilee, the Queen also reportedly met her namesake

By Martin Robinson, Chief Reporter

Published: 04:00 EDT, 7 June 2022 | Updated: 08:43 EDT, 7 June 2022

In this picture Lilibet is seen in her mother Meghan's arms inside Frogmore, beside photographer Misan Harriman's wife Camilla Holmstroem and their two daughters

The husband of Camilla Holmstroem who happens to be a photographer for Vogue

My guess he was supposed to be the photographer to take those photos of Lilibet and the Queen...

mountaineer · « **Reply #2293 on:** June 07, 2022, 12:20:47 pm »

Quote

Palace insiders may have worried any photos taken by Harry and Meghan would be shared with TV networks in the US.

Not just that. They figured H&M would gladly share them with Hello! Magazine for money.

Gefn · « **Reply #2294 on:** June 07, 2022, 01:03:23 pm »

I really enjoyed the photos of the Queen with Paddington Bear.

Right_in_Virginia · « **Reply #2295 on:** June 07, 2022, 01:22:40 pm »

Quote from: mystery-ak on June 06, 2022, 10:14:31 pm

Well I have seen this behavior before....my oldest son and now my grandson.....ADHD

Darn. Here I've always thought Louis is Kate's favorite....and she's a little light on the discipline. I've been waiting for dad to kick in.

libertybele · « **Reply #2296 on:** June 07, 2022, 03:46:17 pm »

Quote from: mystery-ak on June 06, 2022, 10:14:31 pm

Well I have seen this behavior before....my oldest son and now my grandson.....ADHD..

If you have ever had a child with it you can spot other children right away....

I brought Mike in to watch the video of Louis...he said.."that kid has ADHD" before I said anything..lol

I had suspected so, but Kate doesn't seem to be a huge disciplinary so, I wasn't exactly sure. He has a nanny as well, so I also thought that maybe some of this was wanting attention.

Regardless, Louis is a ham and I enjoyed the pictures.

libertybele · « **Reply #2297 on:** June 07, 2022, 03:46:49 pm »

Quote from: Gefn on June 07, 2022, 01:03:23 pm

I really enjoyed the photos of the Queen with Paddington Bear.

I did as well also. Very clever.

mountaineer · « **Reply #2298 on:** June 07, 2022, 07:45:07 pm »

Maybe he was just cranky and over-excited from all the activities of the Jubilee.

mystery-ak · « **Reply #2299 on:** June 07, 2022, 08:10:51 pm »

Quote from: mountaineer on June 07, 2022, 07:45:07 pm

Maybe he was just cranky and over-excited from all the activities of the Jubilee.

Well that could be...but they rarely take him to any events...he could be just a spoiled brat that a pat on the butt might cure...but that is frowned upon now...