States Turn to an Unproven Method of Execution: Nitrogen Gas

[thackney]

States Turn to an Unproven Method of Execution: Nitrogen Gas
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/07/health/death-penalty-nitrogen-executions.html

...Oklahoma, Alabama and Mississippi have authorized nitrogen for executions and are developing protocols to use it, which represents a leap into the unknown. There is no scientific data on executing people with nitrogen, leading some experts to question whether states, in trying to solve old problems, may create new ones....

...In March, Oklahoma’s attorney general, Mike Hunter, said that using nitrogen was “the safest, the best and the most effective method available.”

There is scant scientific data to back up that statement. What little is known about human death by nitrogen comes from industrial and medical accidents and its use in suicide. In accidents, when people have been exposed to high levels of nitrogen and little air in an enclosed space, they have died quickly. In some cases co-workers who rushed in to rescue them also collapsed and died.

Nitrogen itself is not poisonous, but someone who inhales it, with no air, will pass out quickly, probably in less than a minute, and die soon after — from lack of oxygen. The same is true of other physiologically inert gases, including helium and argon, which kill only by replacing oxygen.

A report from the United States Chemical Safety and Hazard Investigation Board said that breathing “an oxygen-deficient atmosphere” can knock a person unconscious after just one or two breaths, and that “the exposed person has no warning and cannot sense that the oxygen level is too low.”...

...Death from nitrogen is thought to be painless. It should prevent the condition that causes feelings of suffocation: the buildup of carbon dioxide from not being able to exhale. Humans are highly sensitive to carbon dioxide — too much brings on the panicky feeling of not being able to breathe. Somewhat surprisingly, the lack of oxygen doesn’t trigger that same reflex. Someone breathing pure nitrogen can still exhale carbon dioxide and therefore should not have the sensation of smothering....

[Gefn]

I know from watching the Food Network that liquid nitrogen is to be handled gingerly lest you loose a finger.

[thackney]

I know from watching the Food Network that liquid nitrogen is to be handled gingerly lest you loose a finger.

That would be due to -321 degrees Fahrenheit, not really a factor of this discussion of the ambient temperature gas.

[Gefn]

That would be due to -321 degrees Fahrenheit, not really a factor of this discussion of the ambient temperature gas.

I know. I'm hungry .....got ice cream on my mind,

[truth_seeker]

There are several time-tested methods, including the beheading, hanging, firing squad, etc.

[thackney]

There are several time-tested methods, including the beheading, hanging, firing squad, etc.

They want the equivalent of death penalty as it is picking meat in the grocery store.  All the blood, guts and reality of life/death stuff hidden from view.

[truth_seeker]

They want the equivalent of death penalty as it is picking meat in the grocery store.  All the blood, guts and reality of life/death stuff hidden from view.

If they demand reliability, I think the Guillotine is high on the list. Messy but trustworthy as well.

[driftdiver]

Why not just use CO2.   At 100% concentration it results in immediate loss of consciousness and death if oxygen is not restored.

[Suppressed]

Why not just use CO2.   At 100% concentration it results in immediate loss of consciousness and death if oxygen is not restored.

CO₂ does not lead to immediate loss of conciousness and death.  It gives a horrific sensation of suffocation.

An inert gas like nitrogen is far more humane for the condemned as well as the witnesses. 

[dfwgator]

If they demand reliability, I think the Guillotine is high on the list. Messy but trustworthy as well.

What's wrong with hanging?   And best of all, you can reuse the rope, so it's more economical.

[thackney]

Why not just use CO2.   At 100% concentration it results in immediate loss of consciousness and death if oxygen is not restored.

You would have massive panic and bad reaction.  Such a sentence would be overturned for cruel and unusual.

The idea with nitrogen is they just stop where they are without struggle.  Such has been the case in far too many industrial accidents in confined spaces.  It results in death without warning to themselves or others.

[Suppressed]

What's wrong with hanging?   And best of all, you can reuse the rope, so it's more economical.

Hanging is a very tricky art.  You want just the right drop and properly placed knot to snap the neck, not cause asphyxiation.  Skilled hangmen were very valuable, and even the best sometimes made mistakes, despite the lookup tables (for weight).

If we were to institute hanging, condemned prisoners would bulk up, knowing that a drop could easily tear their head off, making a nasty spectacle for innocent witnesses.  So the sentences could never be carried out.

Think this is crazy?  It's already been done to try to stop lethal injections (https://abcnews.go.com/US/486-pound-death-row-inmate-fat-execute/story?id=17261585)...and, yes, hanging: http://www.nbcnews.com/id/11225694/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/prisoner-once-found-too-fat-hang-dies#.

[Suppressed]

You would have massive panic and bad reaction.  Such a sentence would be overturned for cruel and unusual.

The idea with nitrogen is they just stop where they are without struggle.  Such has been the case in far too many industrial accidents in confined spaces.  It results in death without warning to themselves or others.

Exactly.  There's no hypercapnic alarm response with nitrogen, as the CO₂ purges from the system...as does the oxygen.  But in a CO₂ atmosphere, it's right there.

[thackney]

Hanging is a very tricky art.  You want just the right drop and properly placed knot to snap the neck, not cause asphyxiation.  Skilled hangmen were very valuable, and even the best sometimes made mistakes, despite the lookup tables (for weight).

If we were to institute hanging, condemned prisoners would bulk up, knowing that a drop could easily tear their head off, making a nasty spectacle for innocent witnesses.  So the sentences could never be carried out.

Think this is crazy?  It's already been done to try to stop lethal injections (https://abcnews.go.com/US/486-pound-death-row-inmate-fat-execute/story?id=17261585)...and, yes, hanging: http://www.nbcnews.com/id/11225694/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/prisoner-once-found-too-fat-hang-dies#.

I was surprised to learn that lethal injection had twice the failure rate of hanging.

https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/some-examples-post-furman-botched-executions

[Suppressed]

I was surprised to learn that lethal injection had twice the failure rate of hanging.

https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/some-examples-post-furman-botched-executions

Yeah, it's a very iffy method... but note that the definition of "botched" can be broad, often including too much of a drug being given, for example. 

Still, the whole execution business is not as clean-cut as many people think.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

CO₂ does not lead to immediate loss of conciousness and death.  It gives a horrific sensation of suffocation.

An inert gas like nitrogen is far more humane for the condemned as well as the witnesses.

what is humane about killing someone?

Isn't that the point of the endeavor?

[Suppressed]

what is humane about killing someone?

Isn't that the point of the endeavor?

We have a Bill of Rights that contains the Eighth Amendment.

And we have innocent witnesses to executions.

[thackney]

Yeah, it's a very iffy method... but note that the definition of "botched" can be broad, often including too much of a drug being given, for example. 

Still, the whole execution business is not as clean-cut as many people think.

I guess that also depends on the sharpness of the blade and greasing of the slides.



Sorry, any execution comment referencing clean-cut requires a guillotine, saber or ax in the response, part of the rules.

[thackney]

what is humane about killing someone?

Isn't that the point of the endeavor?

No, execution does not require inhumane actions.  No more that harvesting of meat requires inhumane actions.

[roamer_1]

They want the equivalent of death penalty as it is picking meat in the grocery store.  All the blood, guts and reality of life/death stuff hidden from view.

That's right. Bullets are cheap.

[GtHawk]

CO₂ does not lead to immediate loss of conciousness and death.  It gives a horrific sensation of suffocation.

An inert gas like nitrogen is far more humane for the condemned as well as the witnesses.

I say use Helium, then the execution would be like a party with the condemned talking funny until they lost consciousness and expired, the witnesses could leave with the feeling the condemned had a good time.

[edpc]

A few nitrogen stouts nearly did me in.

[Fishrrman]

The goal should be to perform the execution so quickly, that the condemned man cannot suffer any pain.

Of all methods, the one that probably comes the closet to achieving this goal is the one described by Arthur Koestler in "Darkness at Noon":
The prisoner is walking down a dark hall, and a bullet is fired into the back of the head.
That's as quick and probably as painless as it gets.

I would propose an automated "execution chair".
- Prisoner is strapped in chair
- A "cone" is lowered over the prisoner's head. IN the cone are 3 automated guns, one aimed at each side of the head and one aimed from the back.
- The executioner pushes a button and fires all three remote controlled guns simultaneously.
- The prisoner's brain and life is destroyed instantaneously.
- No pain. Over in the flash of a moment.

This probably could pass the "cruel" test as the prisoner would "feel" nothing.
But the "unusual" part? That would become the hurdle...

[Suppressed]

But the "unusual" part? That would become the hurdle...

@Fishrrman

But if you do it often enough, it becomes "the usual"...?



What gets me is how we rightfully care about being humane to those being executed, whilst being utterly inhumane to the ill, whom we force to endure great torment without assistance.  We humanely put animals out of their misery.  We humanely put criminals out of our misery.  But the physically and mentally ill, we make suffer.

[Cyber Liberty]

@Fishrrman

But if you do it often enough, it becomes "the usual"...?



What gets me is how we rightfully care about being humane to those being executed, whilst being utterly inhumane to the ill, whom we force to endure great torment without assistance.  We humanely put animals out of their misery.  We humanely put criminals out of our misery.  But the physically and mentally ill, we make suffer.

Not to mention the most innocent lives of all:  The unborn.