Author Topic: Jedi Minding on Tariffs  (Read 1128 times)

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Offline Emjay

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Jedi Minding on Tariffs
« on: March 10, 2018, 12:10:16 am »
President Trump is the most masterful negotiating presence in the White House of not just the modern era, but in American history.

You free-trade establishment types need to pipe down, listen up, and learn a thing or two.
In the president’s brief statement Thursday in the signing of the tariff declaration, Trump let slip a few things that not only the media immediately began to ignore, but simultaneously demonstrated his mastery of the issues in far greater depth than many of the wall street wonks who spent the last two weeks denouncing his tariff policy (which until today had not been fully revealed).

Talk show hosts on the right, some of whom work for my parent broadcaster, libertarian pundits, economists, opinion editorialists, and plenty of millennials on Twitter and elsewhere sounded off with absolute certainty that Trump’s tariffs were a pox on the economic successes of his early days. They went on to predict the future doom of his legacy as a historic failure. And these were merely criticisms of the political right.
They should learn a little something about how our president operates.
One of the critical voices I interviewed said she believed the tariffs would be the beginning of the “Trump job loss” season.

Yet in the president’s own voice, flanked by his commerce, treasury, and trade secretaries to his left, and a sample of America’s finest production labor to his right, the president revealed a number of items that the press should have touted in response. Sadly they have yet to do so.

1. NOT A SINGLE COUNTRY WILL BE FORCED TO PAY THEM - IF THEY SO CHOOSE: Did you see this reported anywhere? It was buried pretty deeply on his own list of reasons for implementing the tariff policy, and with the press's tendency of having the attention span of a gnat understood, some of them may have flat out missed this. Yet he stated it. The implementation of the tariffs will also include the ability for countries to be added to or taken off the list (which doesn’t kick in for another 15 days) based on one simple criterion: improve whatever current standing you have with America by making it more fair. It’s simple, it’s straightforward, and massively doable. If your country charges a higher tax of any sort on our items coming into your country, eliminate that tax, or make it mirror the ones we charge you for your products headed into our markets. There is no reason why American cars should be required to pay a tax of 25% on our cars going into China, when they pay only 2.5% to get to bring theirs into the US. This is idiotic. Such concessions were negotiated by both Republican and Democrat administrations who seem to have negotiated from apparent weakness. And note that the president didn’t argue that you had to give us a favorable advantage—merely equal treatment—an old fashioned idea rooted in our nation’s founding. Theoretically no nation on earth will be required to pay the tariffs on steel and aluminum imports if they simply, quickly, and efficiently work to create a level playing field to the relationship we have with them. It is a brilliant move from this perspective as well—the decision to pay the tariffs is dependent solely on the decision of the other nation. By choosing to not create reciprocity in our relationship, they choose to take a posture that continues to cheat American workers, markets, and jobs. Tariffs are a more than fair response in return.


https://townhall.com/columnists/kevinmccullough/2018/03/09/jediminding-on-tariffs-n2459096
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Offline Emjay

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Re: Jedi Minding on Tariffs
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2018, 12:10:49 am »
Another take on the topic of the day.
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Offline INVAR

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Re: Jedi Minding on Tariffs
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2018, 12:29:37 am »
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Concerned

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Re: Jedi Minding on Tariffs
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2018, 12:32:43 am »
I just don’t understand this insistence that some people have that Trump is this master negotiator.  Since taking office, what exactly has he accomplished with his supposed “masterful negotiating presence”?  “Repeal and replace”?  Mexico paying for the wall?  Gun control?  A resolution on DACA?  Renegotiated NAFTA?  (The end of 2017 was the initial goal for a renegotiated NAFTA).  What exactly has he accomplished due to his “masterful negotiating presence” since taking office?
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Offline INVAR

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Re: Jedi Minding on Tariffs
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2018, 01:14:55 am »
I just don’t understand this insistence that some people have that Trump is this master negotiator.  Since taking office, what exactly has he accomplished with his supposed “masterful negotiating presence”?  “Repeal and replace”?  Mexico paying for the wall?  Gun control?  A resolution on DACA?  Renegotiated NAFTA?  (The end of 2017 was the initial goal for a renegotiated NAFTA).  What exactly has he accomplished due to his “masterful negotiating presence” since taking office?

HOW DARE YOU QUESTION THE DIVINE NATURE OF OUR BELOVED LEADER AND BRING FACTS INTO THE NARRATIVE!

Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Fantom

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Re: Jedi Minding on Tariffs
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2018, 01:31:55 am »


Good post Emjay, beats all the fainting couch potatoes hands down.  888high58888
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Offline endicom

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Re: Jedi Minding on Tariffs
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2018, 01:44:45 am »
Another take on the topic of the day.


And a good one. And already being attacked by the moles, trolls and donut holes.


Online Hoodat

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Re: Jedi Minding on Tariffs
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2018, 02:31:04 am »
Quote
1. NOT A SINGLE COUNTRY WILL BE FORCED TO PAY THEM - IF THEY SO CHOOSE: Did you see this reported anywhere?

In other words, this is all just political posturing, which @edpc already called out on the other thread:

Yes, that ‘long forgotten age’ way back in 2002 and 2009, when we had tariffs on steel and tires, respectively.  While they didn’t result in a full on trade war, they did cause net job loss for US workers in those industries.  What’s the upside here, aside from political posturing?

I think you've made your position pretty clear so your posts are beginning to blur.  It's hardly political posturing when so many people have a knee-jerk hate for it.  It may be posturing to some other countries.

http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,306646.msg1625955.html#msg1625955
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Online Hoodat

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Re: Jedi Minding on Tariffs
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2018, 02:42:43 am »
Quote
President Trump is the most masterful negotiating presence in the White House of not just the modern era, but in American history.

You free-trade establishment types need to pipe down, listen up, and learn a thing or two.
In the president’s brief statement Thursday in the signing of the tariff declaration, Trump let slip a few things that not only the media immediately began to ignore, but simultaneously demonstrated his mastery of the issues in far greater depth than many of the wall street wonks who spent the last two weeks denouncing his tariff policy (which until today had not been fully revealed).  .  . 
.  .  . There is no reason why American cars should be required to pay a tax of 25% on our cars going into China, when they pay only 2.5% to get to bring theirs into the US. This is idiotic.


Speaking of idiotic, if this is indeed the purpose, then Trump could not possibly have chosen a more idiotic commodity to tax than steel.  American imports account for a whopping 0.12% of Chinese production.  I don't think China is going to change their own tariff policy because of US tariffs on a product where they do not crack the top ten in US imports.

And why in the heck would China import GM cars built in the US while GM continues to build (less expensive) cars in China, flush with profits that they cannot use to modernize US plants without paying a 40% penalty.

And there's the rub.  The US continues to implement a 40% tariff on US companies that import the most important commodity of all into the US - dollars.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2018, 08:06:31 pm by Hoodat »
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline INVAR

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Re: Jedi Minding on Tariffs
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2018, 03:29:21 am »

Speaking of idiotic, if this is indeed the purpose, then Trump could not possibly have chosen a more idiotic commodity to tax than steel.  American imports account for a whopping 0.12% of Chinese production.  I don't think China is going to change their own tariff policy because of US tariffs on a product where they do not crack the top ten in US imports.

And why in the heck would China import GM cars built in the US while GM continues to build (less expensive) cars in China, flush with profits that they cannot use to modernize US plants without paying a 40% penalty.

And there's the rub.  The US continues to implement a 40% tariff on US companies that import the most important commodity of all into the US - dollars.

Stop talking common sense and get with the propaganda program Hoodat! Otherwise you're just being unpatriotic and a 'hater'.

Such evidence you cite does not fit with the narrative that Trump is the most masterful negotiating presence in the modern era, not just in American history - not just in world history - but in the history of the entire material universe!
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline endicom

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Re: Jedi Minding on Tariffs
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2018, 03:58:52 am »
In other words, this is all just political posturing, which @edpc already called out on the other thread:


Requiring equitable trade agreements is posturing? Sheesh!




Online Hoodat

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Re: Jedi Minding on Tariffs
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2018, 04:24:43 am »

Requiring equitable trade agreements is posturing? Sheesh!

How is this tariff going to bring about an equitable trade agreement with China?  They hardly export any steel to the US.  And because of this tariff, they will now gain an advantage in steel-based manufactured goods since prices will now rise for American manufacturers.  This tariff is a big win for China, and a big loss for the American consumer.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Online Hoodat

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Re: Jedi Minding on Tariffs
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2018, 04:46:41 am »
More from the article:

Quote
2. BEGIN TO WIN THE DEFICIT ON TRADE: Most of America probably did not realize that we lose close to $800 billion in the current annual trade deficits with the nations we trade with. These deficits are the very reasons why factories get shuttered.

That $800 billion comes right back into the US in the form of capital investment and government borrowing.  And it is not the reason that factories get shuttered.  Factories get shuttered because they refuse to modernize and innovate.  And a major cause for this is tariffs which produce complacency in American industry and kill off competitive influences.


Quote
3. Carving out a promise to keep the imports from Canada and Mexico tariff free (as a new trade agreement/understanding is negotiated) should settle down the palpitating heartbeats of those concerned with the echo effect on markets that more expensive steel were being said to have caused.

Placing a tariff on steel imports from Canada and Mexico would be a violation of NAFTA.  The irony here is that NAFTA is precisely the "fair trade" Trump pretends to want.  Because of NAFTA, Canada and Mexico do not place tariffs on American imports.  Yet Trump wants to re-negotiate that?


Quote
3. But before announcing those, the president included an even more significant carve out, “bring your production to America.” He offered what appeared to be tax free incentive for nations that would like to bring their production on to American shores.

Too bad that same incentive doesn't apply to American companies.  GM is making buku profits in China right now.  But if they bring that money back into the US, they get taxed at the 35% corporate tax rate.


Here's the bottom line with me.  I am not surprised Trump is doing this.  He disclosed this during the campaign when he adopted Bernie Sanders' trade policy.  I argued against that trade policy then.  And I continue to argue against it now.  So this isn't some anti-Trump screed.  This is an anti-Bernie-Sanders-trade-policy screed.  And the part that upsets me the most is hearing people who claim to be Conservatives posting in here about how wonderful far-left Democrat trade policies are and how they are going to help America, especially when decades upon decades upon decades of history prove otherwise.

Trump has taken Obama's tariffs on Chinese tires and applied them across the board to steel.  The tire tariff cost us 3,500 jobs, $1.1 billion in lost exports, and cost consumers $1 billion in higher tire costs.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Emjay

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Re: Jedi Minding on Tariffs
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2018, 05:51:47 am »

Good post Emjay, beats all the fainting couch potatoes hands down.  888high58888

Thanks @Fantom   Sorry I had to post and run but my son and DIL are on the Island for a week and we've been touristing.
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Offline Emjay

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Re: Jedi Minding on Tariffs
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2018, 05:53:43 am »

Speaking of idiotic, if this is indeed the purpose, then Trump could not possibly have chosen a more idiotic commodity to tax than steel.  American imports account for a whopping 0.12% of Chinese production.  I don't think China is going to change their own tariff policy because of US tariffs on a product where they do not crack the top ten in US imports.

And why in the heck would China import GM cars built in the US while GM continues to build (less expensive) cars in China, flush with profits that they cannot use to modernize US plants without paying a 40% penalty.

And there's the rub.  The US continues to implement a 40% tariff on US companies that import the most important commodity of all into the US - dollars.

@Hoodat  Please ... you acted as if you were quoting me but you were just quoting from an article I posted.  We've heard your opinion in like 200 times so, well, bored now.
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Offline Emjay

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Re: Jedi Minding on Tariffs
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2018, 05:59:21 am »
I just don’t understand this insistence that some people have that Trump is this master negotiator.  Since taking office, what exactly has he accomplished with his supposed “masterful negotiating presence”?  “Repeal and replace”?  Mexico paying for the wall?  Gun control?  A resolution on DACA?  Renegotiated NAFTA?  (The end of 2017 was the initial goal for a renegotiated NAFTA).  What exactly has he accomplished due to his “masterful negotiating presence” since taking office?

@Concerned
He's actually accomplished a lot.  There are lists everywhere you care to look.  All the things you are sneering at are in the works and will be resolved eventually.  I don't know why you slipped 'gun control' in there.  Do you want it or what.  The gun laws are exactly the same ... as they should be.

Trump is trying to renegotiate NAFTA but he can't wave a wand.  Other countries are involved.  What did Obama want to do about NAFTA?  Not a dam thing.

I think a wall will be built eventually and Mexico will pay for it.  Maybe not directly, but they will pay by not being able to ship their neer-do-wells over here and their drugs..

Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.

Offline INVAR

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Re: Jedi Minding on Tariffs
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2018, 06:15:04 am »
Here's the bottom line with me.  I am not surprised Trump is doing this.  He disclosed this during the campaign when he adopted Bernie Sanders' trade policy.  I argued against that trade policy then.  And I continue to argue against it now.  So this isn't some anti-Trump screed.  This is an anti-Bernie-Sanders-trade-policy screed.  And the part that upsets me the most is hearing people who claim to be Conservatives posting in here about how wonderful far-left Democrat trade policies are and how they are going to help America, especially when decades upon decades upon decades of history prove otherwise.

It's the cult of personality that made Obama-like zombies out of them.  Trump can do no wrong - because he is insisted to be the greatest Conservative in American history.

NOTHING in the mind of the True Believer can dissuade them from the facts his policy position here is lifted from Socialist Bernie Sanders.  They don't care what Trump does - so long as they can declare a 'win'! 

Trump could propose eliminating the 2nd Amendment tomorrow by Executive Order, and his phalanx of devoted followers will lecture all of us how 'Conservative' and 'good' and 'right' such a policy is for 'America'.  They will adopt the Liberal-Left talking points and make them 'Conservative' and tell us that our 'old, rigid, principled Conservatism' is irrelevant and replaced by their populist Conservatism.

Hell, we all just watched them do it over 1.5 TRILLION in DEFICIT SPENDING.

Once Conservatives abandoned principles to party and pragmatism, the movement was taken over by Big Government Statists, who are aligned with liberals except in management and priorities.  It is how you have a lifelong NYC Liberal Democrat who funded the Clintons and endorsed and campaigned and voted for Bill DeBlasio, be triumphed as the 'greatest Conservative who ever lived'.

We are now surrounded by clapping seals.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Suppressed

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Re: Jedi Minding on Tariffs
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2018, 08:19:25 am »
I just don’t understand this insistence that some people have that Trump is this master negotiator.  . . . What exactly has he accomplished due to his “masterful negotiating presence” since taking office?

Well, I've never paid a dime less than $150,000 to keep Stormy Daniels quiet, and have never gotten my lawyer to pay for me!
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Offline Stevensr123

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Re: Jedi Minding on Tariffs
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2018, 09:56:21 am »
If trump is doing it for Nafta, what did he exempt the countries that are in NAFTA?  :pondering:

Offline Concerned

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Re: Jedi Minding on Tariffs
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2018, 12:17:16 pm »
@Concerned
He's actually accomplished a lot.  There are lists everywhere you care to look.  All the things you are sneering at are in the works and will be resolved eventually.  I don't know why you slipped 'gun control' in there.  Do you want it or what.  The gun laws are exactly the same ... as they should be.

Trump is trying to renegotiate NAFTA but he can't wave a wand.  Other countries are involved.  What did Obama want to do about NAFTA?  Not a dam thing.

I think a wall will be built eventually and Mexico will pay for it.  Maybe not directly, but they will pay by not being able to ship their neer-do-wells over here and their drugs..

@Emjay

My question wasn't has what has he accomplished (he's done a lot through dictating through Executive Order -- that's not deal making).  My question was:

Quote
Since taking office, what exactly has he accomplished with his supposed “masterful negotiating presence”?

He sold himself as a "great dealmaker" who would make "the best deals".  You posted an article that stated he was a “masterful negotiating presence in the White House of not just the modern era, but in American history."  What great deals has he struck for the American People since taking office?  How has he leveraged his "masterful negotiating presence" for the betterment of the American People? 

During the campaign, Trump said:  “the problem with Washington, they don’t make deals, it’s all gridlock” and “I’ll get everybody together. We’ll make great deals for the country”.  OK, sounds great!  He's gotten people together on "repeal and replace", DACA, and gun control.  He's talked to the President of Mexico several times on them paying for the wall.  His target for renegotiating NAFTA was initially the end of last year yet there are no deals (yet) on any of these. 

Where exactly is the evidence that we ALREADY have a "masterful negotiating presence in the White House"?  Sure, if he "eventually" negotiates great deals, maybe we'll actually see evidence of that (I doubt it), but the claim was made he's already in there.  Maybe, he's too busy tweeting about the Russia Investigation, picking petty squabbles, and childish name-calling to leverage his "masterful negotiating presence" to actually get any of the "best deals" done during his first 13 months?  Jedi Minding?  Haha!

http://www.breitbart.com/video/2016/01/20/trump-the-problem-with-washington-they-dont-make-deals-its-all-gridlock/


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Online Hoodat

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Re: Jedi Minding on Tariffs
« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2018, 04:49:35 pm »
@Concerned
He's actually accomplished a lot.  There are lists everywhere you care to look.  All the things you are sneering at are in the works and will be resolved eventually.  I don't know why you slipped 'gun control' in there.  Do you want it or what.  The gun laws are exactly the same ... as they should be.

Trump is trying to renegotiate NAFTA but he can't wave a wand.  Other countries are involved.  What did Obama want to do about NAFTA?  Not a dam thing.

I think a wall will be built eventually and Mexico will pay for it.  Maybe not directly, but they will pay by not being able to ship their neer-do-wells over here and their drugs..

@Emjay, this is all beautiful and all.  I wish Trump success in every Conservative endeavor he tackles.  I have grown to recognize when Trump engages in political posturing, and when he does, I take a step back and watch it play through, just as I am doing here.

However, I am not about to get caught up in his rhetoric (which is certainly targeted at someone else for some ulterior purpose) and embrace that rhetoric as being Conservative when clearly it is not.  Tariffs are bad for the American economy.  There is nothing Conservative about raising taxes either.  So I will hold out hope that Trump knows what he is doing and wins out for America in the long run.  But I will not champion a 25% tariff on imported steel - over 98% of which does not come from China - as a Conservative ideal, instead of recognizing it as a platform offered by a hardline communist like Bernie Sanders.

So you can continue to lie to yourself that raising taxes creates economic growth.  But I flatly refuse to call out Slavery as Freedom.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

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Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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Re: Jedi Minding on Tariffs
« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2018, 04:54:38 pm »
President Trump is the most masterful negotiating presence in the White House of not just the modern era, but in American history.

You free-trade establishment types need to pipe down, listen up, and learn a thing or two.
Stopped reading.

Offline Suppressed

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Re: Jedi Minding on Tariffs
« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2018, 04:57:24 pm »

And a good one. And already being attacked by the moles, trolls and donut holes.

It's very telling, how you refer to conservatives.
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Offline endicom

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Re: Jedi Minding on Tariffs
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2018, 05:02:28 pm »
It's very telling, how you refer to conservatives.

Not me but you.