BREAKING>> Active Shooter Florida High School... Developing... Multiple victims...

[Sanguine]

Agreed, Sanguine.  And of course some of these drugs have possible side effects that can cause behavioral issues, as well.  I think we're at a situation where people on certain classes (?) of medications shouldn't have firearms.  But that might affect people with PTSD, which causes another problem.

It's not the meds that I worry about, it's the underlying mental problems that they are being treated for.  But, I do recognize that the meds can give them enough energy or clarity to act upon their mental issues.

I think PTSD is vastly overhyped, and PTSD alone doesn't cause anti-social behavior.

By the way, welcome, Laura!  Glad to have you here.

[Cyber Liberty]

Agreed, Sanguine.  And of course some of these drugs have possible side effects that can cause behavioral issues, as well.  I think we're at a situation where people on certain classes (?) of medications shouldn't have firearms.  But that might affect people with PTSD, which causes another problem.

The problem I have with putting people on "No Buy" lists for firearms is they don't get notified, don't get informed of the criteria if they do, and there's no recourse if they're listed by mistake.  That's basically the way the present NICS system works.  There's an appeal process that you can find at their website, but it's convoluted and requires hiring an attorney to figure it out.

[LauraTXNM]

It's not the meds that I worry about, it's the underlying mental problems that they are being treated for.  But, I do recognize that the meds can give them enough energy or clarity to act upon their mental issues.

I think PTSD is vastly overhyped, and PTSD alone doesn't cause anti-social behavior.

By the way, welcome, Laura!  Glad to have you here.

Thanks, Sanguine!  And with regard to the PTSD, I think about our recent vets and all the issues around denying them weapons.

[To-Whose-Benefit?]

I don't know what to think of the argument that anti-depression and anti-psychotic drugs cause mental health issues.  They are on these drugs because they have mental health issues, and so far I haven't seen a good study that shows that the drugs cause or increase the issues.

@Sanguine

Quite a bit to digest here, no short answer, but yes it's the drugs causing the violence: tripping the patient's circuit breakers:

http://psychroaches.blogspot.com/2013/06/akathisia-suicide-homicide-from.html

http://psychroaches.blogspot.com/2013/01/neurolepticsantipsychotis-causing.html

[Sanguine]

@Sanguine

Quite a bit to digest here, no short answer, but yes it's the drugs causing the violence: tripping the patient's circuit breakers:

http://psychroaches.blogspot.com/2013/06/akathisia-suicide-homicide-from.html

http://psychroaches.blogspot.com/2013/01/neurolepticsantipsychotis-causing.html

That's not the conclusion I draw.  They are already mentally ill. 

How many times have you also read or heard that "he was fine as long as he took his meds, but he felt better and quit taking them"?

Added:  I think it's easy to blame the meds, the inanimate object here, much like guns.  I think it can lead us to miss the point.

[driftdiver]

This story indicates he made statements that the demon voices told him to do it.  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5398625/Demon-voices-school-gunman-attack-cops-called-39-times.html

A very strong indication the drugs are a factor.

[Sanguine]

This story indicates he made statements that the demon voices told him to do it.  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5398625/Demon-voices-school-gunman-attack-cops-called-39-times.html

A very strong indication the drugs are a factor.

Really?  Not schizophrenia?

[driftdiver]

Really?  Not schizophrenia?

@Sanguine
Some of the side effects of the drugs are hallucinations and hearing voices.

[Sanguine]

@Sanguine
Some of the side effects of the drugs are hallucinations and hearing voices.

Which is also a symptom of schizophrenia.  Which usually manifests at early adulthood...

[driftdiver]

Which is also a symptom of schizophrenia.  Which usually manifests at early adulthood...

We know he's on the drugs.

We don't know he has schizophrenia.

[Sanguine]

We know he's on the drugs.

We don't know he has schizophrenia.

And, we can draw what conclusion from our lack of knowledge?

[aligncare]

The subject of the questionable benefits of and over-medication with psychotropic drugs is the 800-pound gorilla in the room that no one in political medicine wants to take seriously. Instead we are lead into countless arguments over guns, gun laws and the constitution.

And oddly, too, politicians can’t seem to find their voices on this issue. I suspect that is because drug companies are some of the largest and most generous donors to House and Senate reelection campaigns.

[INVAR]

This story indicates he made statements that the demon voices told him to do it. 

A very strong indication the drugs are a factor.

Or maybe a very strong indication that demons were indeed a factor.

But since we do not believe in God anymore in this country and consider belief to be a mental illness, it's no surprise the concept of demons influencing people to act on the basest evils of human nature is discarded out of hand and attributed to drugs.

I think it was some movie that suggested that the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince people he does not exist.

[To-Whose-Benefit?]

@Sanguine

It's not realistic to expect most people to sit through Dr Lucire's detailed and extremely well researched dissertation, but I'm going to Try here to boil it down to a very basic principle (by no means all inclusive, or 100% applicable to every patient).

A basic, very common, Adverse Reaction all SSRIs and Neuroleptics carry is a condition called Akathisia.

It's routinely ignored by prescribers or downplayed if it's even mentioned.

What warnings accompany it in the Label caution prescribers to be particularly watchful for it in the first few days/weeks of the patient's Initial exposure to the drug.


It's a psychological unease so upsetting that patients have described it as making them want to jump out of their skin, or claw it off to get away from it.

Since it's swept under the rug, the patient, being left in dark about it, mistakenly tries to quash it with an overdose of the offending drug which of course blows it into a truly unbearable internal hell.

And Wham, you have the explanation for the overwhelming preponderance of Suicides in new patients/teens, rather than Homicides from them.

https://ssristories.org/

[To-Whose-Benefit?]

The subject of the questionable benefits of and over-medication with psychotropic drugs is the 800-pound gorilla in the room that no one in political medicine wants to take seriously. Instead we are lead into countless arguments over guns, gun laws and the constitution.

And oddly, too, politicians can’t seem to find their voices on this issue. I suspect that is because drug companies are some of the largest and most generous donors to House and Senate reelection campaigns.

https://www.opensecrets.org/

I haven't nosed around here in a while but it is a great place to find numbers.

They seem to have expanded their data base and changed their indexing around since I was there last, so anyone interested will have to use the search box for specifics.

[Cyber Liberty]

The subject of the questionable benefits of and over-medication with psychotropic drugs is the 800-pound gorilla in the room that no one in political medicine wants to take seriously. Instead we are lead into countless arguments over guns, gun laws and the constitution.

And oddly, too, politicians can’t seem to find their voices on this issue. I suspect that is because drug companies are some of the largest and most generous donors to House and Senate reelection campaigns.

Politicians (and damned near everybody else who haven't got a clue what they're talking about) seem to have found all kinds of voices when the drug under discussion is an Opioid.

[To-Whose-Benefit?]

Or maybe a very strong indication that demons were indeed a factor.

But since we do not believe in God anymore in this country and consider belief to be a mental illness, it's no surprise the concept of demons influencing people to act on the basest evils of human nature is discarded out of hand and attributed to drugs.

I think it was some movie that suggested that the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince people he does not exist.

Watch Dr Lucire's video and read the accompanying report by Clark and Co. before you toss it All into the lap of Evil.

People who consider themselves Pacifists out of a misplaced sense of moral superiority are Offended all to Hell by what our Military Special Forces do, on their behalf.

"Killing is Never Right! Killing is Never the Answer!"

How many times have we all been subjected to that stinking pantload from the surrender and curl up into a fetal position ball and the bad guys won't hurt us or our children crowd?

[To-Whose-Benefit?]

Really?  Not schizophrenia?

Schizophrenia itself is admitted to be a 'Garbage Can Diagnosis'.

And, people pasted with it are 5 times Less Likely to perp an act of physical violence on you, me, or anyone else than supposed 'Normal' people are.

Personally, I think you need to actually read the material I posted for you, and settle in to give Dr Yolanda Lucire a good hearing, because a lay person's opinions don't carry equal scientific weight with the real life observation gained over decades with follow up analysis of reports from the field they work in.

[anubias]

This story indicates he made statements that the demon voices told him to do it.  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5398625/Demon-voices-school-gunman-attack-cops-called-39-times.html

A very strong indication the drugs are a factor.

Schizophrenics hear voices.  It may be a strong indication that the lack of drugs was a factor.

[driftdiver]

Schizophrenics hear voices.  It may be a strong indication that the lack of drugs was a factor.

All we know is he was troubled and had a history of very erratic and creepy behavior.   Some threats were reported but nothing appeared to have been done.

[To-Whose-Benefit?]

All we know is he was troubled and had a history of very erratic and creepy behavior.   Some threats were reported but nothing appeared to have been done.

Let's go back to the Virginia Tech shooter.

He was well known to be stand-offish, weird, and antisocial.

However, he didn't snap and go off on a killing spree until after the school Counselors backed him into a mental health Exam, Diagnosis, and Drugging.

Sometimes the obvious is so obvious it eludes us.

Reminds me of Sherlock Holmes maxim.

"Once you have eliminated the impossible whatever remains must be the truth."

[driftdiver]

Let's go back to the Virginia Tech shooter.

He was well known to be stand-offish, weird, and antisocial.

However, he didn't snap and go off on a killing spree until after the school Counselors backed him into a mental health Exam, Diagnosis, and Drugging.

Sometimes the obvious is so obvious it eludes us.

Reminds me of Sherlock Holmes maxim.

"Once you have eliminated the impossible whatever remains must be the truth."

@To-Whose-Benefit?
Not sure I understand but I think you're pointing to the drugs.   

I think the drugs are a big factor.  That and a broken society where troubled people don't get help but are allowed to exist on the fringes where they are a threat to other peoples safety.

[Sanguine]

@Sanguine

It's not realistic to expect most people to sit through Dr Lucire's detailed and extremely well researched dissertation, but I'm going to Try here to boil it down to a very basic principle (by no means all inclusive, or 100% applicable to every patient).

A basic, very common, Adverse Reaction all SSRIs and Neuroleptics carry is a condition called Akathisia.

It's routinely ignored by prescribers or downplayed if it's even mentioned.

What warnings accompany it in the Label caution prescribers to be particularly watchful for it in the first few days/weeks of the patient's Initial exposure to the drug.


It's a psychological unease so upsetting that patients have described it as making them want to jump out of their skin, or claw it off to get away from it.

Since it's swept under the rug, the patient, being left in dark about it, mistakenly tries to quash it with an overdose of the offending drug which of course blows it into a truly unbearable internal hell.

And Wham, you have the explanation for the overwhelming preponderance of Suicides in new patients/teens, rather than Homicides from them.

https://ssristories.org/

Basically, it's drug induced restless leg syndrome.  It simply doesn't cause shootings.  Just doesn't.

I understand that you are very skeptical and dismissive of modern medicine.  And, that's OK, but it means you and I probably will never agree on this subject.  It happens.

[Bigun]

In a related matter, millions of American school children have been made virtual zombies by Ritalin!

[aligncare]

In a related matter, millions of American school children have been made virtual zombies by Ritalin!

Exactly. Rather than dealing with difficult behavior problems it’s much easier to reach for the prescription pad and voilà, problem solved.