Trump pulls brakes on $13B Obama-backed rail-tunnel plan

[Cyber Liberty]

That's what the Dems in Minnesota who actually caused the collapse were screaming.

Then again, everything everywhere was and is Bush's fault......

One of the ironies of that is the light rail being built to the Mall of America.

All over the country, every time a light rail station is opened at a mall, the mall soon collapses because they become over whelmed with the "wrong element":  People who are not there to spend money, but are there to "socialize."  Mall of America has been besieged by the Black Lives Matter crowd every Christmas since Ferguson, and numerous times in between, causing the shopkeepers to have to lock up, with their customers inside. 

The very expensive rail line that cost lives in the bridge collapse is going to be the end of the Mall of America.

[WingNot]

 "socialize."


Is that what they are calling it now!   

[Cyber Liberty]

"socialize."


Is that what they are calling it now!   

It's more PC than "looting."

[edpc]

All over the country, every time a light rail station is opened at a mall, the mall soon collapses because they become over whelmed with the "wrong element"

The light rail in Baltimore passes right through the affluent neighborhood of Ruxton.  They constantly veto opening a station there for that reason.  The closest stop is 4 miles away.

[DB]

Sounds like a good move to me.

And I don't want to hear from the big blue states/cities that they're just getting some of their tax money back... Like idiots they voted for the federal government to take it in the first place...

[To-Whose-Benefit?]

Yeah. Him and Mussolini.

[musiclady]

One of the ironies of that is the light rail being built to the Mall of America.

All over the country, every time a light rail station is opened at a mall, the mall soon collapses because they become over whelmed with the "wrong element":  People who are not there to spend money, but are there to "socialize."  Mall of America has been besieged by the Black Lives Matter crowd every Christmas since Ferguson, and numerous times in between, causing the shopkeepers to have to lock up, with their customers inside. 

The very expensive rail line that cost lives in the bridge collapse is going to be the end of the Mall of America.

Excellent point.

The left is the very essence of tragic unintended consequences.

[Fishrrman]

Cyber Liberty wrote:
"That's gonna leave a mark."

Most folks reading this post have absolutely no idea how many people use the Amtrak/NJ Rail tunnels under the Hudson to Penn Station each day.

If even one of the tunnels (there are two) was lost, it would make travel between New York and New Jersey considerably more difficult, impossible for many. The city's ability to function would be crippled. And that would "leave a mark" like you wouldn't believe, particularly on the overall economy.

The original plan -- the one that Governor Christie rejected (which would have built a new NJ Rail station under 34th street) -- was a bad one, and rightly abandoned.

But the twin tunnels that connect Pennsylvania Station to New Jersey have to be rebuilt -- they're 107 years old (opened in 1910) and have been subjected to the constant wear of passing trains for all that time. They're approaching the point of being worn out.

I've seen them (actually the 4 East River tunnels going the other way) in a way that ordinary folks never will, running through them each day. I've walked in them, even had to get down underneath a train there to put the air hoses back together after they came apart and the train went into emergency at 1.30 in the morning.

There's no way to rebuild them completely, without taking each one out-of-service for the time required (probably 2-3 years). But that would leave only one. You can't run rush hour traffic both ways on one track. You can't even run midday service that way.

That means at least one -new- tunnel needs to be built, so that there can still be two in service during the rebuild.
And with the leaps-and-bounds that traffic has grown into NY Penn in the past 20 years, even two tunnels aren't enough to comfortably handle it any longer.

The money will have to come from somewhere, and New York and New Jersey are broke and can't pay for it all. Nor can Amtrak, which continually runs on the low side of funding.

But the costs of not doing the replacement will eventually be far higher than the price of designing/doing the job.

Aside:
A good book on the construction of Penn Station and the tunnels on both sides of it is "Manhattan Gateway" by the late William D. Middleton. At the time, it was one of the greatest construction projects ever undertaken in America, all privately funded by the Pennsylvania Railroad (back when railroads had the income from both freight and passenger with which to do such things). An astounding amount of money at the time...

[Cyber Liberty]

that's pretty interesting about the transportation situation, @Fishrrman.  We got a teeny, tiny taste of one day of that on 9-11, when everything got shut down for a while.  I never gave much thought how much of a dirsuption that kind of work will cause.

When did it become an exclusive Federal responsibility?  My understanding was the states involved never secured their end of the finances.  It's like California with the High-Speed train to and from nowhere.

[Sanguine]

Cyber Liberty wrote:
"That's gonna leave a mark."

Most folks reading this post have absolutely no idea how many people use the Amtrak/NJ Rail tunnels under the Hudson to Penn Station each day.

If even one of the tunnels (there are two) was lost, it would make travel between New York and New Jersey considerably more difficult, impossible for many. The city's ability to function would be crippled. And that would "leave a mark" like you wouldn't believe, particularly on the overall economy.

You could say the same thing about a number of areas, like Houston/Beaumont.

The original plan -- the one that Governor Christie rejected (which would have built a new NJ Rail station under 34th street) -- was a bad one, and rightly abandoned.

But the twin tunnels that connect Pennsylvania Station to New Jersey have to be rebuilt -- they're 107 years old (opened in 1910) and have been subjected to the constant wear of passing trains for all that time. They're approaching the point of being worn out.

I've seen them (actually the 4 East River tunnels going the other way) in a way that ordinary folks never will, running through them each day. I've walked in them, even had to get down underneath a train there to put the air hoses back together after they came apart and the train went into emergency at 1.30 in the morning.

There's no way to rebuild them completely, without taking each one out-of-service for the time required (probably 2-3 years). But that would leave only one. You can't run rush hour traffic both ways on one track. You can't even run midday service that way.

That means at least one -new- tunnel needs to be built, so that there can still be two in service during the rebuild.
And with the leaps-and-bounds that traffic has grown into NY Penn in the past 20 years, even two tunnels aren't enough to comfortably handle it any longer.

The money will have to come from somewhere, and New York and New Jersey are broke and can't pay for it all. Nor can Amtrak, which continually runs on the low side of funding.

Not my problem. 

Also, with that many people traveling through there, they should have the tax base to pay for the roads they use.

But the costs of not doing the replacement will eventually be far higher than the price of designing/doing the job.

Aside:
A good book on the construction of Penn Station and the tunnels on both sides of it is "Manhattan Gateway" by the late William D. Middleton. At the time, it was one of the greatest construction projects ever undertaken in America, all privately funded by the Pennsylvania Railroad (back when railroads had the income from both freight and passenger with which to do such things). An astounding amount of money at the time...

[Cyber Liberty]

Not my problem. 

Also, with that many people traveling through there, they should have the tax base to pay for the roads they use.

If NY and NJ don't have the money, it's because they squandered the treasuries of the largest tax bases in the country with their socialism.  I need somebody to come explain why a guy in AZ and a gal in TX should have to cough up the dough for this project.  I feel like the Germans when the Greek economy was crashing a couple years back.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Regardless of where they say the money is going, we should all remember what happened with the last “infrastructure” bill (aka “porkulus”); the money was used to fund already funded state projects, and the states then took the money saved and applied it to other stuff - shoring up public employee pension programs, mostly.

Exactly.  Most of that money was not publicized by the Obama-adoring media.

You can bet the media will do its utmost to track any monies in Trump's projects and point out on the first page any problems with expenditures.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

Cyber Liberty wrote:
"That's gonna leave a mark."

Most folks reading this post have absolutely no idea how many people use the Amtrak/NJ Rail tunnels under the Hudson to Penn Station each day.

If even one of the tunnels (there are two) was lost, it would make travel between New York and New Jersey considerably more difficult, impossible for many. The city's ability to function would be crippled. And that would "leave a mark" like you wouldn't believe, particularly on the overall economy.

The original plan -- the one that Governor Christie rejected (which would have built a new NJ Rail station under 34th street) -- was a bad one, and rightly abandoned.

But the twin tunnels that connect Pennsylvania Station to New Jersey have to be rebuilt -- they're 107 years old (opened in 1910) and have been subjected to the constant wear of passing trains for all that time. They're approaching the point of being worn out.

I've seen them (actually the 4 East River tunnels going the other way) in a way that ordinary folks never will, running through them each day. I've walked in them, even had to get down underneath a train there to put the air hoses back together after they came apart and the train went into emergency at 1.30 in the morning.

There's no way to rebuild them completely, without taking each one out-of-service for the time required (probably 2-3 years). But that would leave only one. You can't run rush hour traffic both ways on one track. You can't even run midday service that way.

That means at least one -new- tunnel needs to be built, so that there can still be two in service during the rebuild.
And with the leaps-and-bounds that traffic has grown into NY Penn in the past 20 years, even two tunnels aren't enough to comfortably handle it any longer.

The money will have to come from somewhere, and New York and New Jersey are broke and can't pay for it all. Nor can Amtrak, which continually runs on the low side of funding.

But the costs of not doing the replacement will eventually be far higher than the price of designing/doing the job.

Aside:
A good book on the construction of Penn Station and the tunnels on both sides of it is "Manhattan Gateway" by the late William D. Middleton. At the time, it was one of the greatest construction projects ever undertaken in America, all privately funded by the Pennsylvania Railroad (back when railroads had the income from both freight and passenger with which to do such things). An astounding amount of money at the time...

No one said it would be inexpensive and unimportant.

The federal government funds billions of work to New York every year, with a great amount of this toward rebuilding after 911.

Hell, why did the federal government pony up over $2 million average for the victims of 911 which is tax free?  Bad things happen all over the country.  I see it a slap at all Americans that some are singled out over others.

Keeping a republic means that each and every state is responsible for what happens within that state.  It is the only way a state reinvests its revenue into its own infrastructure rather than for example to prop up its unions so politicians can get re-elected.

In no way I should be funding New York's infrastructure while at the same time New York is spending $16 million in its 2018 budget for legal services to fight deportation of illegals or provide 103 fulltime positions in its campaign finance board to provide among other things millions of $ in matching campaign funds for people running for city offices.

https://council.nyc.gov/budget/fy2018/

[WingNot]

It appears the Trump Train does not run thu NJ and NY.

[Bigun]

No one said it would be inexpensive and unimportant.

The federal government funds billions of work to New York every year, with a great amount of this toward rebuilding after 911.

Hell, why did the federal government pony up over $2 million average for the victims of 911 which is tax free?  Bad things happen all over the country.  I see it a slap at all Americans that some are singled out over others.

Keeping a republic means that each and every state is responsible for what happens within that state.  It is the only way a state reinvests its revenue into its own infrastructure rather than for example to prop up its unions so politicians can get re-elected.

In no way I should be funding New York's infrastructure while at the same time New York is spending $16 million in its 2018 budget for legal services to fight deportation of illegals or provide 103 fulltime positions in its campaign finance board to provide among other things millions of $ in matching campaign funds for people running for city offices.

https://council.nyc.gov/budget/fy2018/

@IsailedawayfromFR

You and I are in COMPLETE agreement but I would note that the USA stopped being a republic somewhere between 1860 - 1865.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

@IsailedawayfromFR

You and I are in COMPLETE agreement but I would note that the USA stopped being a republic somewhere between 1860 - 1865.

Not acting like a republic vs not being a republic are two completely different things.

I have not given up a return to what this country was founded.

[Bigun]

Not acting like a republic vs not being a republic are two completely different things.

I have not given up a return to what this country was founded.

And we still agree!