Author Topic: Amtrak train derails in Washington state onto Interstate 5; injuries reported [Update: Fatalities]  (Read 2830 times)

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Offline edpc

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Thousands of people are killed in automobile accidents on a daily basis, but if a train or plane crashes and people die, then it's OMG huge news.

That's because it's a mass casualty event. Occasionally, this happens with automobiles and it becomes OMG news. Sometimes it's significant enough to be remembered decades later.

26 Years Ago Today: Deadly East Tennessee Fog I-75 Crash

https://www.alabamawx.com/?p=108694
« Last Edit: December 18, 2017, 09:12:57 pm by edpc »
I disagree.  Circle gets the square.

Offline thackney

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Interesting. you think of trains with those small metal wheels as basically heavy enough to cut through anything.

If I understand it correctly, that case was pieces small enough for an individual carry, an probably only an inch thick.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12658468.Schoolgirl_tells_murder_trial_of_train_crash__apos_joke_apos_/

Earlier, British Rail expert John Lewis told the court that in his view at least three of the slabs, used to cover cables laid along the track side, had been stacked on top of each other and propped over a rail at an angle.
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Offline Sanguine

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Thousands of people are killed in automobile accidents on a daily basis, but if a train or plane crashes and people die, then it's OMG huge news.

Well, sure.  Auto accidents are fairly common.  Trains and airplane accidents, not so much.  And, autos tend to carry much fewer people than the commercial carriers.

But, point taken. 

Offline NavyCanDo

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Thousands of people are killed in automobile accidents on a daily basis, but if a train or plane crashes and people die, then it's OMG huge news.

You do understand it's a mass casualty event with 6 dead and 77 , nearly everyone else on board sent to the emergency room. Not to mention a major freeway shutdown for at the very least an entire day, and maybe 2.

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Offline Fishrrman

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TomSea wrote:
"The stories seem to say this was the first day of this new run, I'm sure they tested it plenty before doing this."

Doesn't matter how many times you "test" a 30mph curve at 30mph.
It still doesn't work at 81mph.... (sigh)

I'll write up a report of what happened later and why.
(a "you read it here before the official report comes out" post...)

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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It's a miracle anyone survived this ...


Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Thousands of people are killed in automobile accidents on a daily basis, but if a train or plane crashes and people die, then it's OMG huge news.
Thousands killed daily from auto accidents?

That is for the entire world, certainly not the USA which has a bit over 100 a day.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year

Try imagining driving conditions in places like Bombay or Zanzibar, where vehicles and roads are in poor condition, drivers have no training and people walk along the roads.

I want to see headlines for mass transit deaths here in the US as it keeps the idiots from steering us away from our vehicles onto government-run trains and buses.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline Fishrrman

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OK, here's my description of what happened, based upon the pics I've seen and some info I've read.

Of course, there are no "official" reports yet, and you probably won't even hear about when they come out, so this is "my version" -- subject to change, but I think all the necessary facts are obvious.

First, I don't think it's "terrorism" of any kind.
Secondly, forget the "early reports" about "something on the track". I don't believe there was anything there.

Before going further, some questions:
Have you ever driven an unfamiliar stretch of highway?
One with at least a few treacherous curves?
How did you know how fast to go?
How did you know when to slow down?

You'll reply, "there are warning signs that tell you when a curve is coming up and advise you what speed to take it". And of course, there are.

Something to remember:
Passenger trains moving at speed do not slow down as quickly as can a car, or even a large truck. You can slow a car from 70 to 30 within several hundred feet, but it might take a train 1/3-1/2 mile to do the same.

We know the train was moving about 80+/-mph at the time of the derailment.
We know that the "normal track speed" for this railroad was 79mph. The difference between 79 and 80 (or 81)mph is insignificant, not a factor, could be a discrepancy in the locomotive speedometer, etc. So ignore that.
The train involved was not using "regular" passenger equipment. Out there, they use something called "Talgo" cars, a shorter, lighter car originally used in Europe.

Something else to be aware of:
This is BRAND NEW RAILROAD, and this was the first day of scheduled operation. This particular stretch of track is a new "bypass" that was built to get the "Coaster" passenger trains off of a congested freight line.

As such, it is "totally new territory" to the train crews. Newly constructed passenger-speed track.
Not "old, familiar" railroad. (I'm wondering if there had been any track there before at all, perhaps an old branch line? Might be completely new track. Not sure about that).
What this means is that all the engineers working on it had just finished "qualifying", i.e., learning the track, stations, speeds, slowdowns, etc.

As a younger guy, I did plenty of this myself. One made trips, took notes, went over things "in your head". You wanted to be able to "recite the entire trip" without actually taking it.
But still, "new railroad" can be just that.

Now, let's consider the physical characteristics of the scene.
Some good pics have already been posted, some in the messages above.

Here's a screenshot from google that shows the general area:


(note: to properly see all of this image, you may need to scroll to the right or just widen the entire page)
The railroad is coming from a straightaway (to the right out of the picture), then curving left to cross over the interstate. Although the curve wouldn't seem overly sharp to non-railroad folk, it's moderately tight.

Also note at the extreme right where the track comes into the pic, the change from concrete ties (lighter color) to wooden ties (darker).

Let's look at the curve (and at that transition point) from another angle:


A telephoto lens compresses the perspective, but you can still see that the transition into the curve is abrupt. Also pay specific attention to the sign you see to the right of the guys standing there:
T-30
P-30

The operating rules out there are different from here in the east, but the meaning of the sign is obvious to me. It's telling us that the speed on that curve is 30 for Talgo equipment ("T") and 30 for regular passenger equipment ("P").

OK, let's take a look at post-wreck pics.


Now you can see the sharpness of the curve in proportion to the train trying to negotiate it.
That IS NOT a 79mph curve. No way. (The sign told us that)

IMPORTANT: the locomotive you see above was at THE REAR of the train -- NOT on the head end. The train had 14 cars with an engine on each end. In the pic, the train was moving away from us, not towards us.

Now, let's move in and change the viewing angle:


Now we can see the engine that was leading (it's topmost, just below the fire truck).
Looks like when it hit the curve at 81mph, it jumped the track and tried to keep going in a [relatively] straight direction, right through the trees (that can be seen in the very first pic posted above). Plowing down the trees actually ripped the top off the locomotive.

If a train hits a curve too fast it doesn't always derail. Curves are posted with speeds that can be negotiated comfortably (both from the viewpoint of equipment wear and passenger comfort), but there's still a safety margin involved. For 30mph, I would guess (and it's only a guess) that a train might make it at 55-60mph without "going off", but it wouldn't be "comfortable".

However, get much above that and the forces of physics come into play.
All that weight and energy, trying to go straight, when it tries to be forced into a curve that sharp... well... the wheel flanges may just override the outer rail, and... it will keep going straight.

And that's why you see where the lead engine ended up. Looks like it plowed a lot of dirt up ahead before it came to rest.

The lead engine looks like it took a few cars with it, but somewhere a coupling broke loose, and the remaining cars hung onto the rails a little further, before coming off themselves and going in all directions. These are the cars that ended up coming over the bridge closer to us. Looks like they "got pushed along" by the weight and momentum of the REAR locomotive, which appears to be the only piece of equipment remaining on the rails. Because they are lighter-weight "Talgo" cars, they don't have the crash strength that regular "Amfleet" coaches would have.

So... that's what happens when you run into a 30mph curve at just over 80.
But... why?

Well, Occam's razor applies-- the engineer making the first regular trip on brand-new territory forgot he was coming up on an important speed restriction. The forces of nature took over after that.

Remember that this is completely new territory, that crews have just "learned it from scratch". Not something that one had been over and over for years, until running on it became routine.

Think back to my earlier comment about driving an unfamiliar road with dangerous curves.
If you caught the warning sign in time, you slowed down and were in the clear.
Miss the warning sign... and things might get dicey for a moment.

Now... take a look at WHERE THEY PUT THE WARNING SIGN in the second pic above.
Right before the curve!
Sure does help one to remember and comply when you're coming up at it at 79mph, eh.....?

There's one missing piece of information I don't have (due to the differences in operating rules and how the placement of signs at speed restrictions is governed in that particular territory). We can't see and we don't know if there was an "advance warning sign" posted for speed restrictions in that territory.

This practice changes from railroad to railroad (again depending on which rule book they're using). Here in the northeast, on Metro-North and CSX (formerly Conrail), permanent speed restrictions aren't marked with signs "by the wayside". They're published in the timetable instructions, and that's it. An engineer is expected to know them, and that's that.

On at least one railroad I ran over as an Amtrak engineer (The Central Vermont, which used the Canadian operating rule book), permanent speed restrictions were posted with a sign (telling you the speed) 6,000 feet in advance of the restriction itself, with a yellow sign at the actual "entrance" to the restriction. It gave you at least -some- notice that you were coming up to a slowdown.

But in much of the other territory I worked on, there were no markings for permanent restrictions at all. The only signs posted were for "temporary" restrictions due to track work.

When I started, Amtrak didn't have warning signs, either. In recent years, they put up signs on the Shore Line between New Haven and Boston with permanent restrictions -- it was a good idea, gave some reminder of curves ahead.

I'll go out on a limb and guess that the only warning signs posted on this new bypass are like the one we see in the pic above -- too late, too late.

This line is almost certainly going to get "positive train control", which WOULD have forced a slowdown if the engineer missed it. But it's not installed and in service as of yet. So the engineer was running on "fixed signals alone", and it was up to him to control the speed of the train. Nothing unusual about this, that's how trains have been run for going on 200 years. It's what made the job of being an engineer unique, a position of some responsibility and respect.

The National Transportation Safety Board will investigate and then at some date in the future (after the general public has long forgotten) issue a report of its findings. They also may make recommendations for changes in operating practices that might serve to prevent similar accidents in the future.

If I was the one making the recommendations, it would be for a uniform system of placing advance warning to permanent speed restrictions like this one. A sign placed far enough in advance of the restriction to give the engineer time to react and comply with the restriction.

Of course, one can ignore signs, in which case they won't make a difference.
But I believe they might have helped in this instance.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 02:01:12 am by Fishrrman »

Offline mystery-ak

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Offline TomSea

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I saw that too, the speed limit, 30 mph.

Those trains can travel very fast but yes, apparently, this could have been avoided if they were going 30 mph or less.

Offline TomSea

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I saw a comment on tax payer dollars per some of these "light rails" and so on. I don't know if that pertains to Amtrak as this is.


Offline truth_seeker

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OK, here's my description of what happened, based upon the pics I've seen and some info I've read.


Thanks for your informed, expert analysis.
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline thackney

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@Fishrrman

Thank you for taking the time to put that informed perspective together.

If I was the one making the recommendations, it would be for a uniform system of placing advance warning to permanent speed restrictions like this one. A sign placed far enough in advance of the restriction to give the engineer time to react and comply with the restriction.

It is hard for me, as an engineer (not the train type), that in this day in this country, we have not already required a uniform advance warning requirement in place.  I'm not a big fan of government regulation, but some is needed in areas of safety.
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Offline thackney

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Amtrak train derailed on track that had automatic-braking technology — but it wasn't switched on
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/12/19/speeding-amtrak-train-derailed-track-without-automatic-braking/964483001/

The fatal Amtrak crash south of Seattle occurred on track where equipment for automatic braking, which Congress has required on all railroads by the end of 2018, was installed but was still being tested....

...The technology collectively known as “Positive Train Control” provides signals between tracks, trains and dispatch centers to slow down speeding trains or to stop them at the appropriate signals if the engineer isn’t responding. Railroads are installing the technology piecemeal across the country at a cost of billions of dollars.

"The Positive Train Control equipment has been installed and is now still in testing, which is why the system has not been activated," Jason Abrams, an Amtrak spokesman, said of the track owned by a Seattle-area transit company where the accident occurred....
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Offline Bigun

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Amtrak train derailed on track that had automatic-braking technology — but it wasn't switched on
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/12/19/speeding-amtrak-train-derailed-track-without-automatic-braking/964483001/

The fatal Amtrak crash south of Seattle occurred on track where equipment for automatic braking, which Congress has required on all railroads by the end of 2018, was installed but was still being tested....

...The technology collectively known as “Positive Train Control” provides signals between tracks, trains and dispatch centers to slow down speeding trains or to stop them at the appropriate signals if the engineer isn’t responding. Railroads are installing the technology piecemeal across the country at a cost of billions of dollars.

"The Positive Train Control equipment has been installed and is now still in testing, which is why the system has not been activated," Jason Abrams, an Amtrak spokesman, said of the track owned by a Seattle-area transit company where the accident occurred....

 **nononono*  How freeking STUPID can you get?
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Offline driftdiver

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**nononono*  How freeking STUPID can you get?

Whats stupid, that they hadnt turned a untested system on?
Fools mock, tongues wag, babies cry and goats bleat.

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OK, here's my description of what happened, based upon the pics I've seen and some info I've read.

Of course, there are no "official" reports yet, and you probably won't even hear about when they come out, so this is "my version" -- subject to change, but I think all the necessary facts are obvious.

First, I don't think it's "terrorism" of any kind.
Secondly, forget the "early reports" about "something on the track". I don't believe there was anything there.

Before going further, some questions:
Have you ever driven an unfamiliar stretch of highway?
One with at least a few treacherous curves?
How did you know how fast to go?
How did you know when to slow down?

You'll reply, "there are warning signs that tell you when a curve is coming up and advise you what speed to take it". And of course, there are.

Something to remember:
Passenger trains moving at speed do not slow down as quickly as can a car, or even a large truck. You can slow a car from 70 to 30 within several hundred feet, but it might take a train 1/3-1/2 mile to do the same.

We know the train was moving about 80+/-mph at the time of the derailment.
We know that the "normal track speed" for this railroad was 79mph. The difference between 79 and 80 (or 81)mph is insignificant, not a factor, could be a discrepancy in the locomotive speedometer, etc. So ignore that.
The train involved was not using "regular" passenger equipment. Out there, they use something called "Talgo" cars, a shorter, lighter car originally used in Europe.

Something else to be aware of:
This is BRAND NEW RAILROAD, and this was the first day of scheduled operation. This particular stretch of track is a new "bypass" that was built to get the "Coaster" passenger trains off of a congested freight line.

As such, it is "totally new territory" to the train crews. Newly constructed passenger-speed track.
Not "old, familiar" railroad. (I'm wondering if there had been any track there before at all, perhaps an old branch line? Might be completely new track. Not sure about that).
What this means is that all the engineers working on it had just finished "qualifying", i.e., learning the track, stations, speeds, slowdowns, etc.

As a younger guy, I did plenty of this myself. One made trips, took notes, went over things "in your head". You wanted to be able to "recite the entire trip" without actually taking it.
But still, "new railroad" can be just that.

Now, let's consider the physical characteristics of the scene.
Some good pics have already been posted, some in the messages above.

Here's a screenshot from google that shows the general area:


(note: to properly see all of this image, you may need to scroll to the right or just widen the entire page)
The railroad is coming from a straightaway (to the right out of the picture), then curving left to cross over the interstate. Although the curve wouldn't seem overly sharp to non-railroad folk, it's moderately tight.

Also note at the extreme right where the track comes into the pic, the change from concrete ties (lighter color) to wooden ties (darker).

Let's look at the curve (and at that transition point) from another angle:


A telephoto lens compresses the perspective, but you can still see that the transition into the curve is abrupt. Also pay specific attention to the sign you see to the right of the guys standing there:
T-30
P-30

The operating rules out there are different from here in the east, but the meaning of the sign is obvious to me. It's telling us that the speed on that curve is 30 for Talgo equipment ("T") and 30 for regular passenger equipment ("P").

OK, let's take a look at post-wreck pics.


Now you can see the sharpness of the curve in proportion to the train trying to negotiate it.
That IS NOT a 79mph curve. No way. (The sign told us that)

IMPORTANT: the locomotive you see above was at THE REAR of the train -- NOT on the head end. The train had 14 cars with an engine on each end. In the pic, the train was moving away from us, not towards us.

Now, let's move in and change the viewing angle:


Now we can see the engine that was leading (it's topmost, just below the fire truck).
Looks like when it hit the curve at 81mph, it jumped the track and tried to keep going in a [relatively] straight direction, right through the trees (that can be seen in the very first pic posted above). Plowing down the trees actually ripped the top off the locomotive.

If a train hits a curve too fast it doesn't always derail. Curves are posted with speeds that can be negotiated comfortably (both from the viewpoint of equipment wear and passenger comfort), but there's still a safety margin involved. For 30mph, I would guess (and it's only a guess) that a train might make it at 55-60mph without "going off", but it wouldn't be "comfortable".

However, get much above that and the forces of physics come into play.
All that weight and energy, trying to go straight, when it tries to be forced into a curve that sharp... well... the wheel flanges may just override the outer rail, and... it will keep going straight.

And that's why you see where the lead engine ended up. Looks like it plowed a lot of dirt up ahead before it came to rest.

The lead engine looks like it took a few cars with it, but somewhere a coupling broke loose, and the remaining cars hung onto the rails a little further, before coming off themselves and going in all directions. These are the cars that ended up coming over the bridge closer to us. Looks like they "got pushed along" by the weight and momentum of the REAR locomotive, which appears to be the only piece of equipment remaining on the rails. Because they are lighter-weight "Talgo" cars, they don't have the crash strength that regular "Amfleet" coaches would have.

So... that's what happens when you run into a 30mph curve at just over 80.
But... why?

Well, Occam's razor applies-- the engineer making the first regular trip on brand-new territory forgot he was coming up on an important speed restriction. The forces of nature took over after that.

Remember that this is completely new territory, that crews have just "learned it from scratch". Not something that one had been over and over for years, until running on it became routine.

Think back to my earlier comment about driving an unfamiliar road with dangerous curves.
If you caught the warning sign in time, you slowed down and were in the clear.
Miss the warning sign... and things might get dicey for a moment.

Now... take a look at WHERE THEY PUT THE WARNING SIGN in the second pic above.
Right before the curve!
Sure does help one to remember and comply when you're coming up at it at 79mph, eh.....?

There's one missing piece of information I don't have (due to the differences in operating rules and how the placement of signs at speed restrictions is governed in that particular territory). We can't see and we don't know if there was an "advance warning sign" posted for speed restrictions in that territory.

This practice changes from railroad to railroad (again depending on which rule book they're using). Here in the northeast, on Metro-North and CSX (formerly Conrail), permanent speed restrictions aren't marked with signs "by the wayside". They're published in the timetable instructions, and that's it. An engineer is expected to know them, and that's that.

On at least one railroad I ran over as an Amtrak engineer (The Central Vermont, which used the Canadian operating rule book), permanent speed restrictions were posted with a sign (telling you the speed) 6,000 feet in advance of the restriction itself, with a yellow sign at the actual "entrance" to the restriction. It gave you at least -some- notice that you were coming up to a slowdown.

But in much of the other territory I worked on, there were no markings for permanent restrictions at all. The only signs posted were for "temporary" restrictions due to track work.

When I started, Amtrak didn't have warning signs, either. In recent years, they put up signs on the Shore Line between New Haven and Boston with permanent restrictions -- it was a good idea, gave some reminder of curves ahead.

I'll go out on a limb and guess that the only warning signs posted on this new bypass are like the one we see in the pic above -- too late, too late.

This line is almost certainly going to get "positive train control", which WOULD have forced a slowdown if the engineer missed it. But it's not installed and in service as of yet. So the engineer was running on "fixed signals alone", and it was up to him to control the speed of the train. Nothing unusual about this, that's how trains have been run for going on 200 years. It's what made the job of being an engineer unique, a position of some responsibility and respect.

The National Transportation Safety Board will investigate and then at some date in the future (after the general public has long forgotten) issue a report of its findings. They also may make recommendations for changes in operating practices that might serve to prevent similar accidents in the future.

If I was the one making the recommendations, it would be for a uniform system of placing advance warning to permanent speed restrictions like this one. A sign placed far enough in advance of the restriction to give the engineer time to react and comply with the restriction.

Of course, one can ignore signs, in which case they won't make a difference.
But I believe they might have helped in this instance.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Beautiful analysis.  Thanks. 

Offline Bigun

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Whats stupid, that they hadnt turned a untested system on?

What, pray tell, prevented their testing that system before the train was actually put into service?
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien