Author Topic: FCC votes to kill net neutrality rules  (Read 6459 times)

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Offline WingNot

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Re: FCC votes to kill net neutrality rules
« Reply #50 on: December 15, 2017, 02:50:03 am »
That's not what that analogy is about  **nononono* @Frank Cannon might be able to explain why since I'm "ill equipped" to do so.

The problem is you are putting 10 dollars worth of thought into a 2 dollar problem.

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Offline goodwithagun

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Re: FCC votes to kill net neutrality rules
« Reply #51 on: December 15, 2017, 02:52:39 am »
The problem is you are putting 10 dollars worth of thought into a 2 dollar problem.

Not really.  :silly: :silly: :silly: Also, posting in analogies isn't your sting suit.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2017, 02:53:15 am by goodwithagun »
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Offline goodwithagun

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Re: FCC votes to kill net neutrality rules
« Reply #52 on: December 15, 2017, 02:55:31 am »
The problem is you are putting 10 dollars worth of thought into a 2 dollar problem.

Omg I just realized if you slur both WineNut and Wingnut quickly, they're practically the same!
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Offline txradioguy

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Re: FCC votes to kill net neutrality rules
« Reply #53 on: December 15, 2017, 03:07:17 am »
A good example of corporate behavior is amazon marketplace. Its website service developed pre net neutrality but was constantly improving and innovating and millions of people have had a good purchasing experience shopping there.  Companies want loyal customers. There’s an incentive to giving their customers the best value and service over their competitors – repeat business.  Competition works. Net neutrality was a solution to a problem that didn’t exist.

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EXACTLY!!!
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Offline InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

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Re: FCC votes to kill net neutrality rules
« Reply #54 on: December 15, 2017, 03:35:51 am »
A good example of corporate behavior is amazon marketplace. Its website service developed pre net neutrality but was constantly improving and innovating and millions of people have had a good purchasing experience shopping there.  Companies want loyal customers. There’s an incentive to giving their customers the best value and service over their competitors – repeat business.  Competition works. Net neutrality was a solution to a problem that didn’t exist.

Nice when you can get taxpayers to subsidize package delivery for you on days when they won't deliver your competitors' packages in the first place.  I'm so glad my tax dollars go to support the owner of the wapo.
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Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: FCC votes to kill net neutrality rules
« Reply #55 on: December 15, 2017, 03:48:28 am »
The internet is like a hose with a golf ball on one end and a women with her lips around the hose on the other end.  You have to pay the girl to suck that ball thu the hose.  The more you pay the harder she sucks and the faster ball moves towards her mouth..


Offline To-Whose-Benefit?

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Re: FCC votes to kill net neutrality rules
« Reply #56 on: December 15, 2017, 10:39:44 am »
We have already Had net neutrality.

It was called the Civil War.

Abe Lincoln threw people critical of his war effort/Government into prison for the duration of the war.

No Habeus Corpus.

That was the real end game of Net Neutrality.

And we've got people here bitching about friggin' Netflix?

Oh for Chissakes!

Get a grip!
« Last Edit: December 15, 2017, 10:40:30 am by To-Whose-Benefit? »
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Offline driftdiver

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Re: FCC votes to kill net neutrality rules
« Reply #57 on: December 15, 2017, 02:01:46 pm »
We have already Had net neutrality.

It was called the Civil War.

Abe Lincoln threw people critical of his war effort/Government into prison for the duration of the war.

No Habeus Corpus.

That was the real end game of Net Neutrality.

And we've got people here bitching about friggin' Netflix?

Oh for Chissakes!

Get a grip!

@To-Whose-Benefit?
Ignorant is a horrible way to go through life.   Netflix is an only example.   

What we're talking about is about 10 companies in the US now having the power to determine who gets to play on the internet.  There are more ISPs than that but about 10 serve most of the people, and in any one geographic area there are maybe 3 companies that control access.

There is no real competition simply because the entry cost into the market is too high.  On top of these companies there are even fewer companies that actually have the backbone of the internet.   They sell to the companies that sell to homes.

So these few companies, that have been providing your information to the federal govt without a warrant, now have the legal ability to control what you see on the internet.   So if during the next election they decide they don't like a particular candidate they can block access to that information.

Its about control of information, not bandwidth.  It sure isn't about being fair or neutral.
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Offline Restored

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Re: FCC votes to kill net neutrality rules
« Reply #58 on: December 15, 2017, 02:07:45 pm »
The internet is like a hose with a golf ball on one end and a women with her lips around the hose on the other end.  You have to pay the girl to suck that ball thu the hose.  The more you pay the harder she sucks and the faster ball moves towards her mouth..

Actually a closer analogy would be if the woman was an airplane, the hose was a swamp and the golf ball was a burning funeral home. Besides that, spot on.
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Offline driftdiver

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Re: FCC votes to kill net neutrality rules
« Reply #59 on: December 15, 2017, 02:16:52 pm »
Actually a closer analogy would be if the woman was an airplane, the hose was a swamp and the golf ball was a burning funeral home. Besides that, spot on.

Only now that hose can disappear if the garden hose supply company doesn't like it. Or the supply company can reroute it to some fat balding guy sitting in his basement all sweaty scratching himself in his dirty underwear.

Enjoy your freedom
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Offline To-Whose-Benefit?

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Re: FCC votes to kill net neutrality rules
« Reply #60 on: December 15, 2017, 02:18:22 pm »
@To-Whose-Benefit?
Ignorant is a horrible way to go through life.   Netflix is an only example.   


We have Anti-Trust laws. Use them.

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Offline driftdiver

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Re: FCC votes to kill net neutrality rules
« Reply #61 on: December 15, 2017, 02:25:38 pm »
We have Anti-Trust laws. Use them.

"Giving money and power to Govt is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys."

PJ O'Rourke

@To-Whose-Benefit?
Oh your sweet simple solution is so special and useless.  The govt just made it legal so its not anti-trust.

Besides how would you prove it?  You don't have access into the systems of the telco's and if you did it would be like finding a needle in a mountain of needles.

These telcos spend a lot of money on their politicians and lobbyists and once again they have got what they wanted.

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Offline Sanguine

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Re: FCC votes to kill net neutrality rules
« Reply #62 on: December 15, 2017, 02:39:04 pm »
Wasn't it Google people who wrote this legislation?

Offline Restored

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Re: FCC votes to kill net neutrality rules
« Reply #63 on: December 15, 2017, 02:47:21 pm »
It's sad to think we will return to the horrible days of 2015 when the Telcos demanded the blood of children just to get a weather report and the camps were full of people who exceeded the nationwide 2K bandwidth limit. I remember hiding a family in our attic who had shared a cat video.
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Offline To-Whose-Benefit?

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Re: FCC votes to kill net neutrality rules
« Reply #64 on: December 15, 2017, 03:05:32 pm »
@To-Whose-Benefit?
Oh your sweet simple solution is so special and useless.  The govt just made it legal so its not anti-trust.

Besides how would you prove it?  You don't have access into the systems of the telco's and if you did it would be like finding a needle in a mountain of needles.

These telcos spend a lot of money on their politicians and lobbyists and once again they have got what they wanted.


Your system intrigues me.

How does it work?

How do you attract people to your cause? Get them to join you?

How does insulting people win you converts?

But I'M the one here who is 'Ignorant."


If the purpose of net neutrality was to protect consumers from being gouged by providers, why wasn't it called Anything even Hinting at that purpose?

The Internet Consumer Price Protection Act might have been a better Title for this onerous stink heap of Tyranny aimed at letting Government regulate what gets onto the internet than the Stalinist Sounding Net-Neutrality it was presented as.

Neutrality? In What? Making sure 'Both' sides of the Political Stink de Jour get Equal Coverage?

Who regulates the Regulators?

Killing Net Neutrality is only step 1, because the monopolist service providers have gotten so deep into controlling the people charged with preventing their very Formation from the start, . . .

Anti-Trusting them is the Legal Remedy which needs to become Step 2.

Private Sector Industrial Medicine was a corrupt Disaster long before Obamacare jumped in to 'Make It Affordable'.

How many more Nation Wrecking Govt Imposed Solutions/Disasters do you need as object lessons?
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Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: FCC votes to kill net neutrality rules
« Reply #65 on: December 15, 2017, 03:10:02 pm »
It's sad to think we will return to the horrible days of 2015 when the Telcos demanded the blood of children just to get a weather report and the camps were full of people who exceeded the nationwide 2K bandwidth limit. I remember hiding a family in our attic who had shared a cat video.

 :thumbsup:

Offline goodwithagun

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Re: FCC votes to kill net neutrality rules
« Reply #66 on: December 15, 2017, 03:15:54 pm »
It's sad to think we will return to the horrible days of 2015 when the Telcos demanded the blood of children just to get a weather report and the camps were full of people who exceeded the nationwide 2K bandwidth limit. I remember hiding a family in our attic who had shared a cat video.

My son's class is reading the published diary of the young girl you hid. So brave  22222frying pan
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Offline Neverdul

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Re: FCC votes to kill net neutrality rules
« Reply #67 on: December 15, 2017, 03:28:26 pm »
@To-Whose-Benefit?
Ignorant is a horrible way to go through life.   Netflix is an only example.   

What we're talking about is about 10 companies in the US now having the power to determine who gets to play on the internet.  There are more ISPs than that but about 10 serve most of the people, and in any one geographic area there are maybe 3 companies that control access.

There is no real competition simply because the entry cost into the market is too high.  On top of these companies there are even fewer companies that actually have the backbone of the internet.   They sell to the companies that sell to homes.

So these few companies, that have been providing your information to the federal govt without a warrant, now have the legal ability to control what you see on the internet.   So if during the next election they decide they don't like a particular candidate they can block access to that information.

Its about control of information, not bandwidth.  It sure isn't about being fair or neutral.

The problem as I see it is that most of the big carriers (ISP’s) are now also content providers – Comcast (whose parent company owns NBC and Universal) or ATT (which owns Direct TV) for instance.

Where I live the only high speed internet provider is Comcast. When I moved I decided I wanted to try the Direct TV Now streaming service as my nephew has it and liked it, recommended it. I also stream via Roku, Amazon Prime and Netflix.

But with Comcast as the carrier, I was forced to get their basic cable TV package, granted it is only about 10 channels but I had no choice – want Comcast internet? - you have to at least get their basic cable offering.

But I’ve also noticed that while my internet connection and speed is fine, after I’ve been streaming the Direct TV Now or Amazon or Netflix, after a time, suddenly my speed goes down and the connection becomes unstable. I can’t prove it, but wouldn’t be surprised if Comcast isn’t throttling based on what sites I am connecting to.

I have no problem with the ISP’s having different tiers of service and charging appropriately for speed or even on data limits on streaming or uploading absent restrictions on the content provider. they shouldn’t be allowed to slow down content based on who they want to be winners and losers based on their ownership or shared ownership. But it isn’t just movie streaming services.

To put it another way, the Huffington Post is owned by Oath Inc. which is a subsidiary of Verizon Communications. So let’s say in the area where I live the only ISP providing high speed internet is Verizon, I’m not talking cellular service, but Fios.

Let’s say that Verizon allows their Fios subscribers to access Huffington Post at the highest speed at which you have subscribed and paid for, the pages and content load at lighting speed. But let’s say you like going to Breitbart instead. But since Verizon sees Breitbart as a competitor to Huffington Post which it owns it and perhaps even doesn’t like the content on Breitbart, they throttle it, meaning when you try to access Breitbart, the pages are painfully slow in loading, if they even load at all.

That is what I understood that nn would, at least in theory prevent.

 :shrug:
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Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: FCC votes to kill net neutrality rules
« Reply #68 on: December 15, 2017, 03:34:36 pm »
It's sad to think we will return to the horrible days of 2015 when the Telcos demanded the blood of children just to get a weather report and the camps were full of people who exceeded the nationwide 2K bandwidth limit. I remember hiding a family in our attic who had shared a cat video.

I just don't find any compelling arguments where getting rid of this is good for consumers. That's my problem with it.

Offline txradioguy

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Re: FCC votes to kill net neutrality rules
« Reply #69 on: December 15, 2017, 03:48:38 pm »
Some things to consider about net "neutrality" that are in the legislation that was just repealed.

The plan repeatedly states that it is only deferring a decision on new broadband taxes (such as Universal Service Fund fees and Telecommunications Relay Service fees, among others)—not prohibiting them. And it takes pains to make clear that nothing in the draft is intended to foreclose future state or federal tax increases. Indeed, the plan engages in the same two-step we saw last year with respect to the E-Rate program: Lay the groundwork to increase taxes in the first order, and then raise them in the second. One independent estimate puts the price tag of these and other fees at $11 billion.

The plan allows class-action lawsuits—with attorneys’ fees—should any trial lawyer want to challenge an Internet service provider’s network management practices or rates. Indeed, the plan expressly declines to forbear from sections 206 and 207 of the Act, which authorize such private rights of action. And it adopts a theory of broadband subscriber access services—that is, services that broadband providers supply to edge providers—that would allow anyone online to file a complaint or go to court. The end result will be more litigation and less  innovation.

The plan expressly states that usage-based pricing, data allowances—really, any offers other than an unlimited, all-you-can-eat data plan—are now subject to regulation. Indeed, the plan finds that these practices will be subject to case-by-case review under the plan’s new “Internet conduct” standard. That standard evaluates at least seven vaguely defined factors in determining whether a practice is allowed. The plan makes clear that these practices are now on the chopping block, with those of mobile operators under special scrutiny. This means that consumers who use less data may end up subsidizing consumers who use more data. Moreover, the President’s plan goes out of its way to say that sponsored-data plans and zero-rating programs, like T-Mobile’s Music Freedom offering, may violate the new standard for Internet conduct. Preventing companies from differentiating themselves from the competition by giving consumers a wide variety of options will mean less choice and less free data for consumers. If you like your current service plan, you should be able to keep your current service plan. The FCC shouldn’t take it away from you.

The plan clearly states that the FCC can regulate the rates that Internet  service providers charge for broadband Internet access, for interconnection, for transit—in short, for the core aspects of Internet services. To be sure, the plan says that the FCC will not engage in what it calls ex ante rate regulation. But this only means that the FCC won’t set rates ahead of time. The plan repeatedly states that the FCC will apply sections 201 and 202 of the Communications Act, including their rate regulation provisions, to determine whether the prices charged by broadband providers are “unjust or unreasonable.” The plan also repeatedly invites complaints about section 201 and 202 violations from end-users and edge providers alike. Thus, for the first time, the FCC would claim the power to declare broadband Internet rates and charges unreasonable after the fact. Indeed, the only limit on the FCC’s discretion to regulate rates is its own determination of whether rates are “just and reasonable,” which isn’t much of a restriction at all.

The plan goes out of its way to reiterate its view that competition is limited. And it uses the FCC’s new 25 Mbps yardstick for broadband to claim that competition doesn’t exist for a majority of Americans.

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Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: FCC votes to kill net neutrality rules
« Reply #70 on: December 15, 2017, 03:55:39 pm »
Some things to consider about net "neutrality" that are in the legislation that was just repealed.

The plan repeatedly states that it is only deferring a decision on new broadband taxes (such as Universal Service Fund fees and Telecommunications Relay Service fees, among others)—not prohibiting them. And it takes pains to make clear that nothing in the draft is intended to foreclose future state or federal tax increases. Indeed, the plan engages in the same two-step we saw last year with respect to the E-Rate program: Lay the groundwork to increase taxes in the first order, and then raise them in the second. One independent estimate puts the price tag of these and other fees at $11 billion.

The plan allows class-action lawsuits—with attorneys’ fees—should any trial lawyer want to challenge an Internet service provider’s network management practices or rates. Indeed, the plan expressly declines to forbear from sections 206 and 207 of the Act, which authorize such private rights of action. And it adopts a theory of broadband subscriber access services—that is, services that broadband providers supply to edge providers—that would allow anyone online to file a complaint or go to court. The end result will be more litigation and less  innovation.

The plan expressly states that usage-based pricing, data allowances—really, any offers other than an unlimited, all-you-can-eat data plan—are now subject to regulation. Indeed, the plan finds that these practices will be subject to case-by-case review under the plan’s new “Internet conduct” standard. That standard evaluates at least seven vaguely defined factors in determining whether a practice is allowed. The plan makes clear that these practices are now on the chopping block, with those of mobile operators under special scrutiny. This means that consumers who use less data may end up subsidizing consumers who use more data. Moreover, the President’s plan goes out of its way to say that sponsored-data plans and zero-rating programs, like T-Mobile’s Music Freedom offering, may violate the new standard for Internet conduct. Preventing companies from differentiating themselves from the competition by giving consumers a wide variety of options will mean less choice and less free data for consumers. If you like your current service plan, you should be able to keep your current service plan. The FCC shouldn’t take it away from you.

The plan clearly states that the FCC can regulate the rates that Internet  service providers charge for broadband Internet access, for interconnection, for transit—in short, for the core aspects of Internet services. To be sure, the plan says that the FCC will not engage in what it calls ex ante rate regulation. But this only means that the FCC won’t set rates ahead of time. The plan repeatedly states that the FCC will apply sections 201 and 202 of the Communications Act, including their rate regulation provisions, to determine whether the prices charged by broadband providers are “unjust or unreasonable.” The plan also repeatedly invites complaints about section 201 and 202 violations from end-users and edge providers alike. Thus, for the first time, the FCC would claim the power to declare broadband Internet rates and charges unreasonable after the fact. Indeed, the only limit on the FCC’s discretion to regulate rates is its own determination of whether rates are “just and reasonable,” which isn’t much of a restriction at all.

The plan goes out of its way to reiterate its view that competition is limited. And it uses the FCC’s new 25 Mbps yardstick for broadband to claim that competition doesn’t exist for a majority of Americans.

Thank you for this, Tx. I did not know any of this. Figures the media would lie about it.

Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: FCC votes to kill net neutrality rules
« Reply #71 on: December 15, 2017, 04:10:32 pm »
I just don't find any compelling arguments where getting rid of this is good for consumers. That's my problem with it.

What's your compelling argument that it is good for consumers?

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Re: FCC votes to kill net neutrality rules
« Reply #72 on: December 15, 2017, 04:16:13 pm »
Wasn't it Google people who wrote this legislation?

Yep....and Facebook's too.

Google and Facebook, both, don't want to see other 'Start-ups', no more than Comcast would like to see another FIOS.
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Offline Sanguine

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Re: FCC votes to kill net neutrality rules
« Reply #73 on: December 15, 2017, 04:17:31 pm »
Thank you for this, Tx. I did not know any of this. Figures the media would lie about it.

That bears repeating. 

And, the other question is: who benefits from NWN?  Consumers?  Or, the providers?

Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: FCC votes to kill net neutrality rules
« Reply #74 on: December 15, 2017, 04:21:05 pm »
Omg I just realized if you slur both WineNut and Wingnut quickly, they're practically the same!

How dare you sully the good name of Wingnut by comparing his name with that low rent fellow.