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Author Topic: If Christian Baker Loses at SCOTUS Tomorrow, We All Do  (Read 1238 times)

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rangerrebew

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If Christian Baker Loses at SCOTUS Tomorrow, We All Do
« on: December 05, 2017, 11:27:07 am »

If Christian Baker Loses at SCOTUS Tomorrow, We All Do

Religious freedom has set our nation apart from the very beginning.

Among its many benefits, religious freedom allows religious individuals and groups to make unique contributions to the public good. And those contributions are massive—from founding countless universities and hospitals to funding charities and the arts.
 
Source URL: https://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/monica-burke/if-christian-baker-loses-scotus-tomorrow-we-all-do
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Offline DB

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Re: If Christian Baker Loses at SCOTUS Tomorrow, We All Do
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2017, 11:57:30 am »
The people in government who imposed these extreme hardships on private citizens over their personal beliefs need to pay a heavy price.
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Offline INVAR

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Re: If Christian Baker Loses at SCOTUS Tomorrow, We All Do
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2017, 01:21:16 pm »
It's better to obey God than men.  I don't give a damn what SCOTUS rules in this case.

I'll refuse service to whomever I choose to refuse service in my business and I'll speak, pray and say what I think regardless what the Despotic Tyrant wannabes are working feverishly to stifle.

Wars have begun in this country over much, much less.
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Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: If Christian Baker Loses at SCOTUS Tomorrow, We All Do
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2017, 01:24:02 pm »
Hate to break it to folks but this will be a loss. The numbers are not there. Kennedy doesn't like this sort of stuff.
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: If Christian Baker Loses at SCOTUS Tomorrow, We All Do
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2017, 01:31:58 pm »
Phillips is going to lose, I predict.   I thought so from the moment the SCOTUS agreed to take the case.  The SCOTUS doesn't, contrary to popular opinion, like to go out on a limb on issues of great public debate.   The legal principle was established back in the sixties when the courts threw out the claim of a lunch counter owner that he could refuse to serve blacks on grounds of religion.   Remember too that Phillips rejected the gay couple's business without first inquiring about the custom cake they wanted.   Those are bad facts for the argument that different rules should apply to him as an "artist".   

If you run a public accommodation, then the law requires you to provide the services you've advertised.   The concept is simple, and fair.     

What will happen, I think, is that the SCOTUS will rule against Phillips so the matter can be resolved through the legislative process.    The right to be served in a public establishment without discrimination is a creature of legislation, and can be fixed (if the public demands) by legislation.     
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 01:33:49 pm by Jazzhead »
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: If Christian Baker Loses at SCOTUS Tomorrow, We All Do
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2017, 01:37:40 pm »
Quote from: DB on December 05, 2017, 11:57:30 am
The people in government who imposed these extreme hardships on private citizens over their personal beliefs need to pay a heavy price.

No one forced Jack Phillips to sell wedding cakes.   That was his choice,  and he did so for reasons unrelated to religion - he wanted to make money.   Now the community can impose rules on those who want to make money off the public - including, as here, the requirement that one not discriminate.   What's good for the lunch counter owner is good for Jack Phillips.   
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: If Christian Baker Loses at SCOTUS Tomorrow, We All Do
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2017, 01:37:54 pm »
Quote from: Jazzhead on December 05, 2017, 01:31:58 pm
Phillips is going to lose, I predict.   I thought so from the moment the SCOTUS agreed to take the case.  The SCOTUS doesn't, contrary to popular opinion, like to go out on a limb on issues of great public debate.   The legal principle was established back in the sixties when the courts threw out the claim of a lunch counter owner that he could refuse to serve blacks on grounds of religion.   Remember too that Phillips rejected the gay couple's business without first inquiring about the custom cake they wanted.   Those are bad facts for the argument that different rules should apply to him as an "artist".   

If you run a public accommodation, then the law requires you to provide the services you've advertised.   The concept is simple, and fair.     

What will happen, I think, is that the SCOTUS will rule against Phillips so the matter can be resolved through the legislative process.    The right to be served in a public establishment without discrimination is a creature of legislation, and can be fixed (if the public demands) by legislation.   

If any legislature anywhere tries to "fix this" you will be the first to scream "Bigots" and cite this SCOTUS case.
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Offline goodwithagun

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Re: If Christian Baker Loses at SCOTUS Tomorrow, We All Do
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2017, 01:41:59 pm »
"No one forced Jack Phillips to sell wedding cakes."

Uh, @Jazzhead ? They were literally forced to sell a cake or face unconstitutional penalties.
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Offline goodwithagun

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Re: If Christian Baker Loses at SCOTUS Tomorrow, We All Do
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2017, 01:43:52 pm »
.
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: If Christian Baker Loses at SCOTUS Tomorrow, We All Do
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2017, 01:46:39 pm »
Quote from: Cyber Liberty on December 05, 2017, 01:37:54 pm
If any legislature anywhere tries to "fix this" you will be the first to scream "Bigots" and cite this SCOTUS case.

No I won't.   This is a Constitutional republic,  with the peoples' elected representatives able to prescribe reasonable rules for the transaction of business in the public square.   
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: If Christian Baker Loses at SCOTUS Tomorrow, We All Do
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2017, 01:48:15 pm »
Quote from: goodwithagun on December 05, 2017, 01:41:59 pm
"No one forced Jack Phillips to sell wedding cakes."

Uh, @Jazzhead ? They were literally forced to sell a cake or face unconstitutional penalties.

You have that ass-backwards.   Phillips, and Phillips alone, decides what he will sell.  All the community requires is that he provide what he chooses to sell without unlawful discrimination. 
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Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: If Christian Baker Loses at SCOTUS Tomorrow, We All Do
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2017, 01:52:32 pm »
Thinking out loud here... isn't this a state issue?
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Offline INVAR

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Re: If Christian Baker Loses at SCOTUS Tomorrow, We All Do
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2017, 01:55:12 pm »
Quote from: Jazzhead on December 05, 2017, 01:37:40 pm
Now the community can impose rules on those who want to make money off the public

Atlas will shrug.

And people will die.

We fought tyrannies much lighter than what you are pushing on us.

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...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Restored

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Re: If Christian Baker Loses at SCOTUS Tomorrow, We All Do
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2017, 01:55:16 pm »
Classic federal issue. Rights extend to all states. Does a business have the right to refuse service to someone?

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Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: If Christian Baker Loses at SCOTUS Tomorrow, We All Do
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2017, 01:55:55 pm »
Quote from: Weird Tolkienish Figure on December 05, 2017, 01:52:32 pm
Thinking out loud here... isn't this a state issue?

You silly person. The Constitution clearly states that the Supreme Court makes all the laws in the country. It's in the Good & Plenty clause.
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Offline goodwithagun

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Re: If Christian Baker Loses at SCOTUS Tomorrow, We All Do
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2017, 02:00:59 pm »
Quote from: Jazzhead on December 05, 2017, 01:48:15 pm
You have that ass-backwards.   Phillips, and Phillips alone, decides what he will sell.  All the community requires is that he provide what he chooses to sell without unlawful discrimination.

You have that ass-backwards.   The courts, and courts alone, decide what he will sell.  All that is required is that Philips provide what the courts choose for him to sell without what they dictate is discrimination.
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Offline INVAR

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Re: If Christian Baker Loses at SCOTUS Tomorrow, We All Do
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2017, 02:01:58 pm »
Quote from: Restored on December 05, 2017, 01:55:16 pm
Classic federal issue. Rights extend to all states. Does a business have the right to refuse service to someone?

Only if they are white, Christian and male.

Otherwise if they are homos and perverts, confused sexually and deviants - then you must give them what they want - and preferably you pay for it.
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...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline INVAR

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Re: If Christian Baker Loses at SCOTUS Tomorrow, We All Do
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2017, 02:02:39 pm »
Quote from: Frank Cannon on December 05, 2017, 01:55:55 pm
You silly person. The Constitution clearly states that the Supreme Court makes all the laws in the country. It's in the Good & Plenty clause.

Our Resident Leftist concurs and has argued with that notion repeatedly.
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Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline driftdiver

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Re: If Christian Baker Loses at SCOTUS Tomorrow, We All Do
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2017, 02:02:52 pm »
Quote from: Weird Tolkienish Figure on December 05, 2017, 01:52:32 pm
Thinking out loud here... isn't this a state issue?

@Weird Tolkienish Figure
How is protection of individual free speech and free exercise of religion just a state issue?
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Offline Jazzhead

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Re: If Christian Baker Loses at SCOTUS Tomorrow, We All Do
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2017, 02:05:29 pm »
Quote from: Weird Tolkienish Figure on December 05, 2017, 01:52:32 pm
Thinking out loud here... isn't this a state issue?

It is - the reach of public accommodation laws to discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation is not uniform.  Some states like Colorado extend protection, others don't.   
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Offline driftdiver

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Re: If Christian Baker Loses at SCOTUS Tomorrow, We All Do
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2017, 02:06:19 pm »
Quote from: Restored on December 05, 2017, 01:55:16 pm
Classic federal issue. Rights extend to all states. Does a business have the right to refuse service to someone?

@Restored
As I understand it they didn't refuse to bake for the couple.  They offered other products but just not a wedding cake.
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Offline Restored

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Re: If Christian Baker Loses at SCOTUS Tomorrow, We All Do
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2017, 02:09:06 pm »
But in this case, the courts are establishing the intent of the party in question. It's purely political. The baker doesn't know the sexual orientation of the buyers so he can't be discriminating based on sexual orientation. Not only that, sexual orientation cannot be proven in court.

It's just politics.
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Offline WingNot

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Re: If Christian Baker Loses at SCOTUS Tomorrow, We All Do
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2017, 02:13:05 pm »
Quote from: Jazzhead on December 05, 2017, 01:48:15 pm
You have that ass-backwards.   Phillips, and Phillips alone, decides what he will sell.  All the community requires is that he provide what he chooses to sell without unlawful discrimination.

What is this  "Community" you speak of?  It certainly wasn't voted on by the public as a whole  They where a bunch of SJW CO legislative asshats who took it amongst themselves to pass an illegal law. 

Eff em all to hell.
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Offline driftdiver

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Re: If Christian Baker Loses at SCOTUS Tomorrow, We All Do
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2017, 02:14:32 pm »
Quote from: WineNot on December 05, 2017, 02:13:05 pm
What is this  "Community" you speak of?  It certainly wasn't voted on by the public as a whole  They where a bunch of SJW CO legislative asshats who took it amongst themselves to pass an illegal law. 

Eff em all to hell.

Funny how the gays all like to use the idea that they have popular support until they lose a vote, then they are all about govt power.
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Offline aligncare

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Re: If Christian Baker Loses at SCOTUS Tomorrow, We All Do
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2017, 02:16:32 pm »
Quote from: driftdiver on December 05, 2017, 02:02:52 pm
@Weird Tolkienish Figure
How is protection of individual free speech and free exercise of religion just a state issue?

 Exactly. It’s not about selling a cake to a gay couple, it’s about creating a cake. The couple was free to purchase any cake in his store.

But the state cannot compel an artist to create specific themes that the state approves. The state may commission an artist to create a specific theme the artist agrees to, but that would be a different story.
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