Author Topic: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'  (Read 14530 times)

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Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #225 on: May 02, 2017, 10:25:02 pm »
Yet the South produced one of the first ironclad vessels and the first submarine to sink an enemy vessel in wartime. That industrial capacity was changing, even during the war.

Without the North siphoning off profits, the South would have grown quickly. The Northern States would have had to compete for Southern Cotton which was the backbone of the European textile industry--and the industry in the North as well. http://mshistorynow.mdah.state.ms.us/articles/291/cotton-and-the-civil-war

In addition, the south had another commodity which is not often mentioned, but 100 years prior was used as money: Tobacco.

Without the North siphoning off profits and doing what it could to keep the South from industrializing, the industrial development of the South would have been rapid. It would have had the coal from the later illegally formed state of West Virginia, which would have still been part of Virginia, and likely the coal in Kentucky as well. It had the Clinton Formation for a source of iron ore, and the ports from coastal Virginia and possibly the entire Chesapeake to Savannah to Charleston, to the gulf coast. (Maryland, below the fall line, along the tributaries to the lower Potomac and the Chesapeake, had strong Southern sentiment, Western Maryland tended to be more sympathetic to the Union. Maryland voted overwhelmingly for Breckenridge, as did the majority of Southern States.) The South had timber and shipyards as well. In addition, the South had the Shenandoah Valley producing grain enough for not only the South, but for export as well. Few of the numerous Iron Furnaces and gristmills of the Shenandoah Valley survived, destroyed by invading troops.

The north had a decided advantage in industrial output, and had the advantage of immigrant labor (enough so that immigrants could be treated worse than slaves, and often were, because there was no vested economic interest in their well being). That surplus of labor kept wages low, hours long, and working conditions arguably worse than those for a slave who was owned, represented an investment (and possible loss in the event they were injured or died), and was not cheaply and easily replaced in the event of misfortune. All abolitionist propaganda aside, there was no benefit to be gained by maintaining a vicious adversarial relationship with people who lived and worked on your farm. (Needless to say no one had electricity or air conditioning and few had running water or flush toilets outside of cities.)

Many of those immigrants became the cannon fodder of the Northern Armies. Slaves did not fill that role in the South.

Even the North's prosecution of the war concentrated on controlling and blockading ports, which made blockade runners and commerce raiders important to the Southern Economy.
Which brings us back to Fort Sumpter, controlling the harbor, and not a strategic position which could be left in foreign hands after secession. With the invasion of Maryland, the Chesapeake became less of a threat to the North and an asset, even though smuggling in the region was rife, and trade persisted between North and South for critical goods until the South could no longer pay for it in gold or cotton, perhaps underscoring the importance of Southern Cotton to the Northern economy. (All the more motive for invading the South and subjugating it--Note the vast majority of battles from the Baltimore Riots to the surrender at Appomatox had been fought on Southern soil or Southern waters against an invading army and marauding navy, with the engagements of  the CSS Alabama and other raiders an exception).
http://www.thebhc.org/sites/default/files/beh/BEHprint/v028n2/p0301-p0312.pdf
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Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #226 on: May 02, 2017, 10:25:07 pm »
On this particular topic, Lew Rockwell and his pal Tom DiLorenzo are prone to ... um.... taking liberties (i.e., lying through their posteriors) ... with the facts about Mr. Lincoln.  They're the source of a great deal of the neo-confed tripe on this and other threads, such as how slavery played no serious role in secession.


I don't think it matters whether it played any role in secession.  The part that matters is that  it didn't play any role into the reasons why Lincoln sent armies in the South to conquer them. 

Lincoln didn't send the armies to free the slaves,  he sent the armies to subjugate the Southerns and make them keep paying that 75% of the costs of running the Federal Government.   (Also to make them keep circulating that slave earned money through New York where his robber baron cronies were getting their share.)   







‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
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Offline musiclady

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #227 on: May 02, 2017, 10:28:04 pm »
Thats no more true than claiming the average southerner took up arms to protect the institution of slavery.

I would venture to say that a number of Union soldiers wanted to end slavery.

Not only was it preached in the churches, as @AbaraXas has posted, but there were also strong anti-slavery people in small towns all over the north.

The town I grew up in had an Underground Railroad station right in the middle of it, as did many other small towns in Ohio (including one near where I live now), and there was a great deal of effort put into getting slaves to freedom.

All one has to do is visit the Underground Railroad Museum in Cincinnati to get the history of this magnificent effort in freeing slaves.   Ohioans put themselves at great risk to do this, but they did it anyway.

The idea that northern soldiers could care less about slavery is wishful thinking...... but no closer to the truth than that every southern soldier was fighting to keep other human beings as property, beat them, sell them, take away their children, and get rich off their suffering.

Not all Yankees were evil, and not all Rebs were righteous.  Lincoln didn't wage war to murder southerners, and the primary cause of the war was indeed slavery.

History revisionists notwithstanding, facts are facts.
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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #228 on: May 02, 2017, 10:31:17 pm »
On this particular topic, Lew Rockwell and his pal Tom DiLorenzo are prone to ... um.... taking liberties (i.e., lying through their posteriors) ... with the facts about Mr. Lincoln.  They're the source of a great deal of the neo-confed tripe on this and other threads, such as how slavery played no serious role in secession.

More generally, Rockwell comes across as interesting, to a point ... until you suddenly realize that he's nuts, not unlike how one suddenly realizes that Ron Paul and Pat Buchanan are nuts.  It leads him to say some pretty ridiculous things.
Thanks. I read a good bit of Murray Rothbard and that's how I learned of Rockwell, but never read anything by Rockwell that economics wasn't related.
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Offline INVAR

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #229 on: May 02, 2017, 10:32:08 pm »
As for the "constitutionality" of secession .... well, in essence it was a big "never mind, we don't actually mean it any more even if we did at the start."

I'm all for secession from the Beast at Mordor on the Potomac right now.  This minute.   I'm all for each state giving the big middle finger to DC and going their own way given where we are going to end up anyway.  The rule of Law was done away under the last regime with the full blessing and support of both parties and their leadership, while half the country considers the Constitution null and void anyway as does DC when it does not serve their interests.

The Declaration of Independence makes the moral case that Lincoln himself cited as a just cause to depart the Beast.   It is self-evident that a continuous train of abuses and usurpations  by our corrupted institutions and rulers pursue the Object that evinces designs to reduce us under absolute despotism. 

It is our right, it is our duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for our future security.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #230 on: May 02, 2017, 10:37:19 pm »
Right. And although its true not all northern soldiers were enamored with the concept of freeing the slaves the idea did generally provide the moral impetus and a worthy cause for the average guy north of the Mason Dixon line to go risking his life in a bloody & miserable war.


I suspect that every example of a letter written by a Northern soldier joining the war to fight against slavery has been hyped by the propagandists who try to spin this as the great moral crusade they wish to portray. 


I imagine quite a lot of letters were written that did not mention such a desire,  but as they do not support the narrative which is desired by those who want to justify the war,    they are ignored and neglected.


As Charles Dickens noted in 1862: (Charles Dickens was very anti-slavery) 

Quote
"Every reasonable creature may know, if willing, that the North hates the Negro, and until it was convenient to make a pretense that sympathy with him was the cause of the War, it hated the Abolitionists and derided them up hill and down dale. For the rest, there's not a pins difference between the two parties. They will both rant and lie and fight until they come to a compromise; and the slave may be thrown into that compromise or thrown out, just as it happens."”


The truth is that the Northern people hated blacks,  and many of these states had laws preventing black people from settling in their state.   

There may have been the occasional Liberal kook that felt otherwise,  and it is of course these letters that are sought out and brought to light,   but I would find it hard to believe that the bulk of the Union forces gave a crap about the slaves. 

The New York riots in fact encourage the opposite view.   They hanged 11 black men and drove out hundreds.   
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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #231 on: May 02, 2017, 10:39:46 pm »
Lincoln didn't wage war to murder southerners, and the primary cause of the war was indeed slavery.

History revisionists notwithstanding, facts are facts.

Facts are facts eh?  How about these facts then, or are they 'revisionist' too?:

"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and it is not either to save or destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union." Abraham Lincoln August 22, 1862

"My policy sought only to collect the Revenue of  a 40 percent federal sales tax on imports to Southern States under the Morrill Tariff Act of 1861." - Lincoln's First Message to the U.S. Congress, penned July 4, 1861.

"I have no purpose, directly or in-directly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists.  I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so," -  Abraham Lincoln, March 4, 1861

"Whereas an insurrection against the Government of the United States has broken out and the laws of the United States for the collection of the revenue cannot be effectually executed therein." - Abraham Lincoln, war declaration April 15th, 1861
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #232 on: May 02, 2017, 10:48:00 pm »
I would venture to say that a number of Union soldiers wanted to end slavery.

Not only was it preached in the churches, as @AbaraXas has posted, but there were also strong anti-slavery people in small towns all over the north.

The town I grew up in had an Underground Railroad station right in the middle of it, as did many other small towns in Ohio (including one near where I live now), and there was a great deal of effort put into getting slaves to freedom.

All one has to do is visit the Underground Railroad Museum in Cincinnati to get the history of this magnificent effort in freeing slaves.   Ohioans put themselves at great risk to do this, but they did it anyway.

The idea that northern soldiers could care less about slavery is wishful thinking...... but no closer to the truth than that every southern soldier was fighting to keep other human beings as property, beat them, sell them, take away their children, and get rich off their suffering.

Not all Yankees were evil, and not all Rebs were righteous.  Lincoln didn't wage war to murder southerners, and the primary cause of the war was indeed slavery.

History revisionists notwithstanding, facts are facts.
While I don't doubt that there were some people who mistreated their slaves, keep in mind that Uncle Tom's Cabin was a sensationalist novel written to promote the abolitionist cause. This was a cause some believed so ferverently in that they attacked the Federal Arsenal at Harper's Ferry over it, seeking arms to continue hostilities.

I doubt the slaveholders in the North, nor those Northerners who had handsomely profited off the slave trade shared those abolitionist sentiments. Similar hyperbole is found in the presses from the Northeast describing the "Wild West", "Noble Savages" and a host of other situations which were not as they were presented in print.

We see similar things today, with Northeastern Press presenting situations which do not exist elsewhere, inciting people to rally around a 'cause' that is false, and even justifying the violent and destructive acts of those in sympathy with the hyperbole. (The "water protectors" protesting the Dakota Access Pipeline, destroying property, assaulting police, and tampering with active pipelines are a fine example).

It is little surprise that those who wrote the history books after the war might seek some moral justification for the unprecedented total war against the Southern population as well as Southern Armies, and present that as such, but the root motivations for the invasion of the seceded South were far more based in simple economics.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #233 on: May 02, 2017, 10:55:32 pm »
Firing on Fr. Sumpter was levying war, and those who fought against the Union were either in rebellion, or committing treason.  Sorta by definition. 


You are aware that Lincoln had snuck a flotilla of Union Warships up on them while they had their forces surrounding Fort Sumter?   In fact,  the orders from Jefferson Davis explicitly cite the fact that Lincoln had brought up warships while misdirecting them as to his intentions.   

General Beauregard directed that when the Next Warship to join the flotilla was sighted,  he could wait no longer.   The firing of the guns at Sumter was caused by the arrival of that next Union warship. 


Just like the Spanish,  Lincoln had sent an armada.   The British firing at them first was not the initial act of war,  it was the  sending of the Spanish fleet which was the initial act of war. 


The Northern crowds and Newspapers weren't told that Lincoln had threatened the forces around Sumter with Warships.   That didn't fit the image he was trying to construct of the Southerners as the aggressors. 





As for the "constitutionality" of secession .... well, in essence it was a big "never mind, we don't actually mean it any more even if we did at the start."  In forming its "more perfect Union," the Constitution either had actual meaning and authority, or it did not.


It never had authority greater than the Declaration of Independence because it was the authority of "nature and nature's God"  that gave the United States government it's legitimacy.   The Constitution was merely a set of rules agreed to by men in negotiations.    Rights given by God cannot be gainsaid by man,  no matter what papers they write.   




 By seceding, the Southern states denied that the Constitution had any overarching authority -- a pretty indefensible case, when you get down to it.


No stronger than thousand year old British law requiring the perpetual allegiance of every British subject.   

How could a piece of paper not even "four score and seven years old"  (You do know Lincoln refers to the Declaration of Independence in that speech,  not the US Constitution?)   be expected to stand against a natural right given by God? 







All that said, whether or not "states' rights" was a cause worth fighting for, the proximate cause for the South's secession -- maintenance of slavery -- was cowardly, greedy, and inhumane. 



But Lincoln was willing to do that so long as he could control the financial destiny of these states. 





The Southern soldiers were gallant and brave, but in the end -- and no matter what their personal reasons -- they were fighting to preserve a barbarous institution.


So you keep telling yourself,  though the facts don't seem to support this claim.   They were fighting for their homeland against their invaders.   

‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
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Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #234 on: May 02, 2017, 11:12:20 pm »
@r9etb Please read this. http://mshistorynow.mdah.state.ms.us/articles/291/cotton-and-the-civil-war

From the article:
Quote
“Every [Union] colonel, captain, or quartermaster is in secret partnership with some operator in cotton.” The lure of cotton wealth would entice white Northern civilians and Union soldiers south during and after the war.

The future of former slaves remained sealed in the cotton fields. Blacks were denied economic and physical mobility by federal government policy, by the racial animosity of Northern whites, and by the enduring need for cotton labor in the South. The federal government was forced to confront the question of what to do with slave refugees and those who had escaped behind Union lines.

In 1863 Union Adjutant General Lorenzo Thomas in the Mississippi Valley devised a solution, a form of containment policy, whereby freed slaves would remain in the South.

 They would be used in the military service, or “placed on the abandoned [cotton] plantations to till the ground.” Former slaves were to be contracted to work on the abandoned plantations – many around Vicksburg. Labor guidelines, such as $10 a month pay and a 10-hour day, were posted. If a laborer missed two hours of work a day, he lost one-half of his day’s pay. The former slaves were not allowed to leave the plantation without a pass. The white Northern lessees of the plantations were generally driven by money. As many as two-thirds of the labor force was thought to have been “defrauded of their wages in 1864.”

Defrauding someone of their wages is little more than slavery without a document of ownership or obligation for their welfare.
Greed, it appears, was far from limited to any planters who may have owned slaves at the beginning of hostilities. At least the planters had a vested interest in the well being of a workforce that they owned.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline musiclady

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #235 on: May 02, 2017, 11:14:40 pm »
While I don't doubt that there were some people who mistreated their slaves, keep in mind that Uncle Tom's Cabin was a sensationalist novel written to promote the abolitionist cause. This was a cause some believed so ferverently in that they attacked the Federal Arsenal at Harper's Ferry over it, seeking arms to continue hostilities.

I doubt the slaveholders in the North, nor those Northerners who had handsomely profited off the slave trade shared those abolitionist sentiments. Similar hyperbole is found in the presses from the Northeast describing the "Wild West", "Noble Savages" and a host of other situations which were not as they were presented in print.

We see similar things today, with Northeastern Press presenting situations which do not exist elsewhere, inciting people to rally around a 'cause' that is false, and even justifying the violent and destructive acts of those in sympathy with the hyperbole. (The "water protectors" protesting the Dakota Access Pipeline, destroying property, assaulting police, and tampering with active pipelines are a fine example).

It is little surprise that those who wrote the history books after the war might seek some moral justification for the unprecedented total war against the Southern population as well as Southern Armies, and present that as such, but the root motivations for the invasion of the seceded South were far more based in simple economics.

There is ample testimony from people other than "those who wrote the history books" that verify what I've said.  I've mentioned the Underground Railroad station IN MY OWN TOWN.  If I relied on Uncle Tom's Cabin to get my information, I'd be a fool................... and I'm not.

I'm not going to deny the facts building up to the secession, and splitting up the country by the South, and I'm not going to gloss over the evil of slavery.  I am fully aware that some in the North profited from it, and that racism was rampant north of the Mason Dixon line, but what I am seeing here is an abject denial of history........... not that written by Northeastern liberals, but that which has been written by people all throughout the country, in their journals, letters, and stories passed on.

Now, I think it best if I leave this thread, because I have a great deal of respect for a few of you that might be lost if I continue to read the distortions I see on this thread.

Carry on without me.

I'm still glad you're in the same country as I am, so I'm glad you lost the war.  :patriot:
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

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Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline musiclady

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #236 on: May 02, 2017, 11:17:33 pm »
Facts are facts eh?  How about these facts then, or are they 'revisionist' too?:

"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and it is not either to save or destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union." Abraham Lincoln August 22, 1862

"My policy sought only to collect the Revenue of  a 40 percent federal sales tax on imports to Southern States under the Morrill Tariff Act of 1861." - Lincoln's First Message to the U.S. Congress, penned July 4, 1861.

"I have no purpose, directly or in-directly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists.  I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so," -  Abraham Lincoln, March 4, 1861

"Whereas an insurrection against the Government of the United States has broken out and the laws of the United States for the collection of the revenue cannot be effectually executed therein." - Abraham Lincoln, war declaration April 15th, 1861

I've read all those quotes, and many others by Lincoln.  I have a balanced view of history without hatred and animosity toward either the South, or those of you who continue to fight a war that we all won.

See you on another thread where we're on the same side, INVAR.

The war is over.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #237 on: May 02, 2017, 11:32:58 pm »


The war is over.


Here is where I think you are wrong.   The consequences of it are what drives both sides today.   The Conservatives still distrust big government,  and the Liberals still want more taxes and more government.   

The land area occupied  by each side then continue to roughly approximate the political split in the nation today.   

FedZilla and crony capitalism were birthed in that war,  and they are the major forces we are still fighting to this day. 


‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
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Offline musiclady

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #238 on: May 02, 2017, 11:39:09 pm »

Here is where I think you are wrong.   The consequences of it are what drives both sides today.   The Conservatives still distrust big government,  and the Liberals still want more taxes and more government.   

The land area occupied  by each side then continue to roughly approximate the political split in the nation today.   

FedZilla and crony capitalism were birthed in that war,  and they are the major forces we are still fighting to this day.

Except I'm from the North, and I'm a small government Conservative........... and there are LOTS of us up here in the states you continue to hate.

I have friends who have relatives in the south and they've been attacked by their family members as Yankees, and treated badly at family reunions.

All I can say is.......get over it. There is no more war.  I'm not your enemy.  We're on the same side.

Or at least we OUGHT to be.  *****rollingeyes*****
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline TomSea

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #239 on: May 02, 2017, 11:46:36 pm »
Did one know that South Carolina and one of the other states that was in the Confederacy as well had a Slave population that was bigger than the white population?

In fact, going back to 1708.
http://www.sciway.net/afam/slavery/population.html
" By 1720 there were approximately 18,000 people living in South Carolina – and 65% of these were African-Americans slaves."

Do people speaking for the Confederacy really believe these people should have been denied the vote? Let's see how Conservative the North would be and how Conservative the South would be if these people, whose ancestors were slaves went back to their original states?

I was looking even at some website and not only Georgia which is scheduled to become a minority-majority state in 2025, but this trend may end up affecting most of the South in the future.

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #240 on: May 02, 2017, 11:47:18 pm »
Except I'm from the North, and I'm a small government Conservative........... and there are LOTS of us up here in the states you continue to hate.


I don't hate people from the North.   I think most of the people I know are from the North.  Certainly among them are many of my friends.   

Yes,  there are conservatives in the North,  but usually in the rural parts of the various states.    The Liberals heavily congregate in the cities,  though there are plenty of conservatives (or libertarians) in some sections of big cities,  like Long Island.   





I have friends who have relatives in the south and they've been attacked by their family members as Yankees, and treated badly at family reunions.




Well I'm not from the South,  and neither is my family.   We didn't come to this country before 1900,  so we had no part in the Civil War.     


I'm speaking of this whole matter in terms of philosophy,  not as a personal matter.    Please do not think I am attacking individuals,   I am attacking what I see as a dangerous group think.   


Much of the danger we currently face as a nation stems from the forces that were unleashed as a result of the civil war.   I would like to say more on the subject but my wife is demanding that I quit and pay attention to her. 

Later folks.  :) 


‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline Bigun

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #241 on: May 02, 2017, 11:55:10 pm »

The Constitution was written 11 years after the Declaration of Independence.   Do you think they had so quickly forgotten the right of independence which they articulated in that document?   

Why put a word in the Constitution when it could only contradict what had already been written in the Declaration?   

In 1787,  it was a given that a state could leave the American Union in the same manner as the Colonies left the British Union.   (Union of the Crowns,  AKA United Kingdom.)

LOL!  Of course not and there are a host of proofs that they had not despite the attempts to erase from history  the works of people like St. George Tucker and othrers.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline INVAR

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #242 on: May 03, 2017, 12:05:54 am »
The war is over.

It's not over dear.  Not by a long shot.

The war still rages on against Northeastern Liberalism/Big Statist/Federal Government-In-Everyone's-Pie.

The concepts of individual liberty, private property rights, religious heritage and free exercise are being invaded by the same kind of ideological mindsets that drove troops into the South to take it over and force them back under Federal control.

Only now, the moral crusades to be written in future history will say that the next 'uncivil war' was fought to stop racism/misogyny/homophobia/Gay Marriage/Abortion Rights.  You name it - the cause is being stamped as mantras by using the federal beast to force capitulation from the 'Blue Union States' upon the rest of the country.

Do we take up arms and lay waste to liberal Leftists who have demonstrated they have no intention whatsoever to leave any of us alone while using the government to do their will, or do we secede from them because we can no longer co-exist because our core view of liberty and the country are in diametric opposites?

We are being fleeced by the feds in ever-increasing and unsustainable debt.  Less than 25% of the country funds the other 75% of the country's mostly Democrat welfare entitlement constituencies.  How long before the remaining producers in states that cannot sustain the mandates tell the Northern Blue States and California to pound sand - we quit?  Will they empower the feds to invade and use military force to "collect the revenue" as Lincoln said was the cause in his war declaration?

You betcha they will.  And those states that fight back will be declared to be evil racists protecting the industries of 'white privilege' and 'racism' and 'homophobia' and 'Islamophobia' and every other crusade the Left uses as moral imperatives to wage asymmetric cultural warfare they want to go hot upon the South and midwestern red states.

The war against an oppressive Central Behemoth being used as a sledgehammer against liberty never ended.  It just morphed and changed the rules to make itself invincible and a perpetual power over every aspect of our lives.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline the_doc

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #243 on: May 03, 2017, 12:11:25 am »
No, it wasn't.  The sectional crises leading up to the Civil War were about slavery, not tariffs.  The secession crisis was about slavery, not tariffs.  Without the long-standing disagreement about keeping or abolishing slavery, the Civil War almost certainly would not have happened.

@kevindavis
@Sanguine 

Slavery was a precipitating factor, probably even the single most important precipitating factor.  I have never denied this.  But I am cautioning TBR posters and lurkers not to overlook the fact that the Southern States hated political tyranny--i.e., hated any Federal exercise of power in violation of the Constitutional covenant.  (Federal means covenantal, by the way!)  The Southerners saw this political tyranny coming straight at them.  And the Federal abuses originating in the North did involve more than matters of
the institution of slavery.  The North and South had become pretty bitter economic adversaries, and the Federal government tended to favor the North on most economic matters.  (Even Karl Marx was correct in admitting this about the Civil War.)

Lincoln did little or nothing to correct the North-versus-South inequities that Federal laws had facilitated.  (As I said in my earlier post, Lincoln really was closely tied to the Northern financiers and businessmen.  This came conspicuously to light in the findings mentioned in Dark Union.)  In fact, Lincoln doubled down on Federal policy even when this ultimately proved to be exceedingly ill-advised, in my opinion.  (See the link I provided.)

For what it's worth, it is fairly common knowledge (among educated Southerners, at least) that the reason why Fort Sumter was the first target selected by a defiant South Carolina gun crew is the fact that Fort Sumter was a bastion protecting a Federal tax office.    

Back to the hottest of the hot-button issues:  The South argued that the Constitution itself implicitly if not formally legalized the institution of slavery as a matter of the original covenant of the States--irrespective of the matter of whether or not slavery was a righteous institution--and that nothing short of a Constitutional amendment could abolish slavery across the entire nation.  Thus, the Civil War was ultimately over the lawful role of the Federal government.  The issue of slavery was undoubtedly the centerpiece of that clash.  The sectional crises to which you referred ordinarily did center on slavery--especially the violent (or near-violent) clashes (perpetrated in most cases, I believe, by radical abolitionists from the North).

Having stipulated that the centerpiece of the clash was slavery--and having pointed out that I have never denied this--let me now ask you to go back and re-read my post to @kevindavis.  In that post I submitted that Kevin had oversimplified the struggle between the North and the South.

Ironically, the Southerners were defending slavery but quite literally and honestly and courageously fighting for freedom against pretty overwhelming odds.  It is difficult for modern Americans to understand this, but the Southerners were defending their own Sovereign States--which were their homes, of course.  In that era, the individual States were far more important to their citizens than was the Federal nation.  (As a matter of fact, in the earliest days of our Republic, America's Founders typically referred to the American Republic as THESE United States, not THE United States.)

Several of the CSA's military officers had resigned from the US Army so they could defend their home States against an overbearing Federal juggernaut.  (Slavery was a secondary [and rather ugly] matter as far as Robert E. Lee was concerned.)

Most of the rank-and-file soldiers of the CSA did not own slaves.  The vast majority of CSA soldiers did not deliberately risk, much less give up their lives for slavery.  They were fighting as patriots of their sovereign Home States and for the rights of self-determination in those States.

We should respect them for that much even if they were on the wrong side of the knotty moral issue of slavery--not call them morons.

Offline Bigun

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #244 on: May 03, 2017, 12:23:07 am »
Facts are facts eh?  How about these facts then, or are they 'revisionist' too?:

"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and it is not either to save or destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union." Abraham Lincoln August 22, 1862

"My policy sought only to collect the Revenue of  a 40 percent federal sales tax on imports to Southern States under the Morrill Tariff Act of 1861." - Lincoln's First Message to the U.S. Congress, penned July 4, 1861.

"I have no purpose, directly or in-directly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists.  I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so," -  Abraham Lincoln, March 4, 1861

"Whereas an insurrection against the Government of the United States has broken out and the laws of the United States for the collection of the revenue cannot be effectually executed therein." - Abraham Lincoln, war declaration April 15th, 1861

All of that was for public consumption.   The truth is that Lincoln's one and only purpose was to protect the interests of his Northern industrial benefactors and especially those of the railroad tycoons.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline the_doc

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #245 on: May 03, 2017, 12:27:04 am »
All of that was for public consumption.   The truth is that Lincoln's one and only purpose was to protect the interests of his Northern industrial benefactors and especially those of the railroad tycoons.

I'm afraid that you are correct about that.  (See my post above yours.)

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #246 on: May 03, 2017, 12:32:04 am »
@kevindavis
@Sanguine 

Slavery was a precipitating factor, probably even the single most important precipitating factor.  I have never denied this.  But I am cautioning TBR posters and lurkers not to overlook the fact that the Southern States hated political tyranny--i.e., hated any Federal exercise of power in violation of the Constitutional covenant.  (Federal means covenantal, by the way!)  The Southerners saw this political tyranny coming straight at them.  And the Federal abuses originating in the North did involve more than matters of
the institution of slavery.  The North and South had become pretty bitter economic adversaries, and the Federal government tended to favor the North on most economic matters.  (Even Karl Marx was correct in admitting this about the Civil War.)

Lincoln did little or nothing to correct the North-versus-South inequities that Federal laws had facilitated.  (As I said in my earlier post, Lincoln really was closely tied to the Northern financiers and businessmen.  This came conspicuously to light in the findings mentioned in Dark Union.)  In fact, Lincoln doubled down on Federal policy even when this ultimately proved to be exceedingly ill-advised, in my opinion.  (See the link I provided.)

For what it's worth, it is fairly common knowledge (among educated Southerners, at least) that the reason why Fort Sumter was the first target selected by a defiant South Carolina gun crew is the fact that Fort Sumter was a bastion protecting a Federal tax office.    

Back to the hottest of the hot-button issues:  The South argued that the Constitution itself implicitly if not formally legalized the institution of slavery as a matter of the original covenant of the States--irrespective of the matter of whether or not slavery was a righteous institution--and that nothing short of a Constitutional amendment could abolish slavery across the entire nation.  Thus, the Civil War was ultimately over the lawful role of the Federal government.  The issue of slavery was undoubtedly the centerpiece of that clash.  The sectional crises to which you referred ordinarily did center on slavery--especially the violent (or near-violent) clashes (perpetrated in most cases, I believe, by radical abolitionists from the North).

Having stipulated that the centerpiece of the clash was slavery--and having pointed out that I have never denied this--let me now ask you to go back and re-read my post to @kevindavis.  In that post I submitted that Kevin had oversimplified the struggle between the North and the South.

Ironically, the Southerners were defending slavery but quite literally and honestly and courageously fighting for freedom against pretty overwhelming odds.  It is difficult for modern Americans to understand this, but the Southerners were defending their own Sovereign States--which were their homes, of course.  In that era, the individual States were far more important to their citizens than was the Federal nation.  (As a matter of fact, in the earliest days of our Republic, America's Founders typically referred to the American Republic as THESE United States, not THE United States.)

Several of the CSA's military officers had resigned from the US Army so they could defend their home States against an overbearing Federal juggernaut.  (Slavery was a secondary [and rather ugly] matter as far as Robert E. Lee was concerned.)

Most of the rank-and-file soldiers of the CSA did not own slaves.  The vast majority of CSA soldiers did not deliberately risk, much less give up their lives for slavery.  They were fighting as patriots of their sovereign Home States and for the rights of self-determination in those States.

We should respect them for that much even if they were on the wrong side of the knotty moral issue of slavery--not call them morons.

@the_doc, I can agree with much of that and wouldn't even think of arguing with your superior knowledge (well, maybe a bit), but here's what I want to know - why is this still so important?  Why do we still fight it after all these years and all the melding of cultures, and many wars fought together since, and victories won, and hard times and good times gone together - why does it still have a visceral hold on us? 
« Last Edit: May 03, 2017, 12:33:03 am by Sanguine »

Offline Bigun

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #247 on: May 03, 2017, 12:40:39 am »
I'm afraid that you are correct about that.  (See my post above yours.)will ever change that regardless of how hard
@the_doc
Your post is excellent and I  appreciate your scholarship.  I have been engaged in these controversies for a long time now and have become too lazy to  spell things out as throughly as you have done. Truth is truth and lies are lies and nothing will ever chane that no matter how hard the revisionists try.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2017, 12:49:42 am by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Bigun

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #248 on: May 03, 2017, 12:46:50 am »
@the_doc, I can agree with much of that and wouldn't even think of arguing with your superior knowledge (well, maybe a bit), but here's what I want to know - why is this still so important?  Why do we still fight it after all these years and all the melding of cultures, and many wars fought together since, and victories won, and hard times and good times gone together - why does it still have a visceral hold on us?
@Sanguine

I'm not the  person you asked the question of but cannot help answering anyway.. It is still important because you must understand where you have been before you can truly move forward.  The fact is that between 1860  and 1873 the entire nature of our government was fundamentally altered and we have suffered for it ever since.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2017, 12:50:55 am by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline INVAR

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #249 on: May 03, 2017, 01:15:01 am »
...but here's what I want to know - why is this still so important?  Why do we still fight it after all these years and all the melding of cultures, and many wars fought together since, and victories won, and hard times and good times gone together - why does it still have a visceral hold on us?
This is no longer a nation of those people that were unified into a single American culture that always looked at federal power as an evil that needed to be on a short leash.  Our Foundations are now hated and being trampled by more than half the population.   The principles that forged us have been discarded wholesale.

We are in the midst of yet another 'civil' upheaval.   Federal power was perverted into an incremental tyranny, and those who understand liberty and its fragility recognize a similar application of divisions and threats posed to us today with the fulcrum of the Federal Beast to be used to force compliance.

Half the population WANTS a behemoth nanny state forcing itself into everyone's life, and less than half don't want that.  They want out.  They are tired of subsidizing the rest of the nation that repeatedly tells them the they are racist homophobes that are too rich, too privileged and do not pay enough and want the government to punish them further.

Instead of slavery dividing the nation, it is the claims of racism, white privilege, homophobia, misogyny and all the other 'moral' crusades the Statists declare.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775