Author Topic: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'  (Read 14721 times)

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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #150 on: May 02, 2017, 01:00:15 pm »
Had cooler heads prevailed and listened to men like Sam Houston, the union could have been preserved without the war and the destruction of rights.

Lincoln offered to send 50,000 troops to Texas who would effectively be at Houston's command but Houston declined and Lincoln didn't send them.


I very much doubt Texans would have forgiven a man for making war against his own state,  even if he believed his state was wrong.   

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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #151 on: May 02, 2017, 01:05:02 pm »
Whether your initials are DT or DL, when you start from incorrect assumptions, you end up saying things that just ain't so.

Such as -- we're not claiming it was "all about slavery," but we admit (as you do not) that the Civil War wouldn't have happened without it.


You are trying to have it both ways.   The North didn't invade the South to stamp out slavery.   They invaded the South to make sure that Slave money which was driving the vast bulk of US Exports to Europe,   kept flowing into the treasury,  and more importantly that the Southern states did not set up a competing free trade zone.   


Midway through the War,  Lincoln made it about slavery as both a political tactic and an effort to destroy their economic infrastructure;  To destroy their economic power base and leave them helpless to oppose Washington D.C.   


But to claim it started as that is just dishonest... or ignorant. 


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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #152 on: May 02, 2017, 01:09:45 pm »
Neo-Confederate myth:

Articles of secession make no mention of tariffs but they do slavery.


Well see,  there's where you are wrong.   What you have is a case where people sought out these statements on slavery,  and pretty much ignored anything else that didn't fit their intended narrative.   



Here is a secession statement about the unfair burdens of taxation and subsidies paid to Northern industries. 


http://www.civilwarcauses.org/rhett.htm



The nastiest things are said by so-called Christians who you don't see voting pro-life or calling slavery an evil. Good night!


Slavery was an evil,  but it didn't preclude the founders from having a right to independence from England.    If it didn't prevent the founders from exercising their right to independence,  why should a different standard be applied to anyone else? 


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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #153 on: May 02, 2017, 01:11:09 pm »

In reality, had the South won, North America would be like Europe.. Constant warfare..


Yes,  we've just been constantly fighting Canada and Mexico since the nation began.   The idea that we could have a peaceful border with another country is just insane. 


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Offline Bigun

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #154 on: May 02, 2017, 01:16:48 pm »

You are trying to have it both ways.   The North didn't invade the South to stamp out slavery.   They invaded the South to make sure that Slave money which was driving the vast bulk of US Exports to Europe,   kept flowing into the treasury,  and more importantly that the Southern states did not set up a competing free trade zone.   


Midway through the War,  Lincoln made it about slavery as both a political tactic and an effort to destroy their economic infrastructure;  To destroy their economic power base and leave them helpless to oppose Washington D.C.   


But to claim it started as that is just dishonest... or ignorant.

"The war between the North and the South is a tariff war. The war is further, not for any principle, does not touch the question of slavery, and in fact turns on the Northern lust for sovereignty."

Karl Marx, 1861
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Offline goatprairie

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #155 on: May 02, 2017, 01:57:27 pm »
Neo-Confederate myth:

Articles of secession make no mention of tariffs but they do slavery. The nastiest things are said by so-called Christians who you don't see voting pro-life or calling slavery an evil. Good night!
Yes, the tariff argument is a crock.  And the idea that the North was envious of the wealth of the South is equally ridiculous.  At the start of the war, the gross industrial output of New York state alone was greater than that of the entire South.  The cotton industry was rapidly being dwarfed by heavy industry mainly located above the M-D line.   
There were the Ordinances of Secession that made (keeping) slavery their main point.
There were Southerners like Confederate Vice-president Alexander Stephens who stated that "slavery is the cornerstone of the confederacy."   There were the fire-eaters like Robert Rhett, William Yancey, and Edmund Ruffin who stirred up slave-holding southerners and were for expanding the slave trade again. There were even soldiers like famed guerilla fighter John Mosby who enraged many "lost cause" Southerners by claiming the war was about slavery. After the war, Mosby supported Republicans and was considered a traitor by many Southerners.
There are two things to consider: the overwhelming reason the South seceded was over slavery. But most Southern soldiers didn't fight to preserve slavery. Only a tiny pct. of Southern soldiers owned slaves. Many fought basically because they resented the North telling them what to do, and they didn't want to fight against their neighbors, friends, and family.  That was why Mosby fought for the South despite believing slavery and secession were wrong.  Same for Robert E. Lee. He thought slavery was wrong, but he couldn't fight against his family members and friends.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 01:59:38 pm by goatprairie »

Offline r9etb

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #156 on: May 02, 2017, 02:40:36 pm »
But to claim it started as that is just dishonest... or ignorant.

I didn't claim that. 

Perhaps the problem here is between your keyboard and chair.

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #157 on: May 02, 2017, 02:46:23 pm »


@corbe yup that's what I thought too this morning when I heard the sound bite.
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Offline skeeter

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #158 on: May 02, 2017, 02:51:28 pm »
"The war between the North and the South is a tariff war. The war is further, not for any principle, does not touch the question of slavery, and in fact turns on the Northern lust for sovereignty."

Karl Marx, 1861

The federal government has always has been and ever will be amoral, IMO. Its concern is money and power. Same goes for the government of the Confederacy.

The issue of slavery motivated the average citizen of the north, not its politicians. The issue of individual & state sovereignty motivated the average southerner. Because Americans by and large are a righteous people and require a righteous cause to go to war.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 02:52:29 pm by skeeter »

Offline corbe

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #159 on: May 02, 2017, 03:19:59 pm »
   The Great One weighs in:

Quote
Fort Sumter was attacked on April 12, 1861. Lincoln’s first inauguration was March 4, 1861. So how would Lincoln – one month after he’s inaugurated the Civil War breaks out – you know it’s not like it suddenly breaks out. This stuff was going on really since the 1817-1818, these discussions, the talks about nullification, secession started to talk a little bit out there. They initially tried to resolve it at the Constitutional Convention, they couldn’t.

So let me get this straight. Washington, Franklin, Madison – they couldn’t resolve it. Later, Jefferson, he couldn’t resolve it. Monroe, he couldn’t resolve it. Adams, he couldn’t resolve it. If only Andrew Jackson had been alive when Lincoln was alive – that is when Lincoln was president – then we would have avoided the Civil War.

This is preposterous!

http://therightscoop.com/mark-levin-trumps-comments-on-andrew-jackson-are-utterly-ridiculous/
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Offline Sanguine

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #160 on: May 02, 2017, 03:25:24 pm »
   The Great One weighs in:

http://therightscoop.com/mark-levin-trumps-comments-on-andrew-jackson-are-utterly-ridiculous/

Yes, I listened to Levin for a bit yesterday.  Very reasoned but thorough take-down.

Offline mirraflake

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #161 on: May 02, 2017, 04:16:16 pm »


Did you take the ferry out to the fort?   Not much there now, but I thought it was fascinating anyway.

@mirraflake

Yep 30 minute boat ride.  We rented a house for  a week on the ocean while in Charleston. 5 couples to defray the cost. Came out just slightly more than a really nice hotel

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« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 04:23:17 pm by mirraflake »

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #162 on: May 02, 2017, 04:36:58 pm »
Yes, the tariff argument is a crock.


It is not a crock,  and it is not simply about Tariffs.   Tariffs were only one part of the problem.  The other part of the problem had to do with New York Skimming off 40% of all Southern produced goods profits. 

The South paid 3/4ths of all the tariffs which funded the US Government.   The 4 Million Southern Citizens were paying 3/4s of the bill,   while the Northern 20 million people were only paying 25% of the cost.   

But worse than that was the laws jiggered to not only protect northern industry,   but also to subsidize it with the taxes the South was paying into the treasury.   


The people who say it is a crock,  simply haven't looked at the real numbers underpinning the point. 




And the idea that the North was envious of the wealth of the South is equally ridiculous.



I'm sure there  was some of that,  but the Merchanitlists of the North were more interested in continuing to intercept the profits they were making off of those South produced exports. 








  At the start of the war, the gross industrial output of New York state alone was greater than that of the entire South.   The cotton industry was rapidly being dwarfed by heavy industry mainly located above the M-D line.   



While that is undoubtedly true,  it is an irrelevant point.   Just because Northern Industrialists were making money in the North manufacturing and selling Domestic products,  (To a Captive Market in the South because of Federal protectionism)    the Shipping,  Insurance, Warehousing and Banking Industries of New York were making quite a lot of money  exporting Southern Agriculture products and Importing European goods in payment for them.   

The notion that   the Northern Robber Barons would simply let go of a significant portion of their economic interests is just silly.    Sure they may have made more money running factories,  but they still wanted that import/export money too. 


 




There were the Ordinances of Secession that made (keeping) slavery their main point.




And now we are going to that misdirection of focusing on why the Southern states left,  (as they had the right to do for whatever reason)   instead of why the Norther states thought they had a right to force them back in. 



The Armies of the North did not invade the South because the South had slavery.   Everyone knew the South had slavery for at least the last "Four Score and Seven Years."     The Union Armies invaded the South to stop economic independence from the Union,   not to stop slavery.   


You want to focus on the South's reasons for leaving instead of the North's reasons for fighting because when looked at objectively,  your argument doesn't stand up very well.   


What you are in fact trying to do is use the Union's actions nearly two years after the fact,  to justify their initial invasion.     You are trying to make the subsequent effect justify the cause.   You are deliberately trying to reverse cause and effect.   


The Union didn't invade to free the slaves.   They invaded to subjugate the Southerners,   and when the fight became bitter,   they incidentally freed the slaves as a war tactic and possibly to permanently damage their previous economic rival.   

 


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Offline LateForLunch

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #163 on: May 02, 2017, 04:54:50 pm »
 While I like the tone of your post a lot (very substantive and not much vituperation) there are some factual inaccuracies in the post. There are some interesting points raised that I confess I am not well-studied enough in to comment.  That being said...

You wrote: "... focusing on why the Southern states left, (as they had the right to do for whatever reason)instead of why the Northern states thought they had a right to force them back in." 

The U.S. Constitution provides for secession only by due process. Since the Southern States did not follow that process, their attempt to secede was according to Constitutional provisions, illegal and the Federal government had a legal authority to regard the rebels as being in violation of the Constitution in the formation of the Confederacy and the subsequent secession.

You stated more than once that "slavery was not the reason" the Union states went to war with the Confederacy. That is not entirely true. It may be more correct to state that slavery was not the singular reason. But it very definitely was a reason, if for nothing else than the fact that the U.S. Constitution (ratified in 1787) provided for discontinuation of slavery as a legal institution in the USA after 50 years (which had passed). The slave states had already been granted a de facto extension on that, so there is no legal basis for the Confederacy to claim that the Constitutional requirement did not apply to them.


« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 05:03:10 pm by LateForLunch »
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Offline Free Vulcan

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #164 on: May 02, 2017, 05:03:22 pm »
It may be more correct to state that slavery was not the singular reason.

IMO the correct position. The abolitionists were the only player willing to war over slavery, the rest from bottom to top had differing or multiple motives, from honorable to selfish. As it is with all momentus events in history, particularly war.

It would be naive to say slavery had nothing to do with the South seceding. It would be equally naive to say the Northeast robber barons went to war with the South over slavery rather than primarily over money and power.
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Offline LateForLunch

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #165 on: May 02, 2017, 05:18:55 pm »
IMO the correct position. The abolitionists were the only player willing to war over slavery, the rest from bottom to top had differing or multiple motives, from honorable to selfish. As it is with all momentus events in history, particularly war.

It would be naive to say slavery had nothing to do with the South seceding. It would be equally naive to say the Northeast robber barons went to war with the South over slavery rather than primarily over money and power.

That matches my impression. In the brinksmanship that ensued after diplomatic impasse, the southern states were apparently the more intractable of the two, because the hawks in the secessionist faction tended to dominate the dialogue.   

From what I have read, there was in the rhetoric of the secessionists  increasing levels of harsh hyperbole as to somewhat the same degree, was the problem on the other side. Houston was likely 100% correct that nobody had given the entire scope of what was being proposed in talk of war, proper consideration.

In retrospect, it is doubtful that after the conflagration had ended and the hundreds of thousands lay rotting in the fields,  many could be found who believed that the Civil War was a good thing which should not rightly have been avoided at virtually all costs, so long as any other viable alternative to all-out war remained.

The doctrine of first blood is still legitimate. Once that stroke falls and blood is spilled, the dogs of war are difficult or impossible to get back into the cage.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 05:21:18 pm by LateForLunch »
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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #166 on: May 02, 2017, 05:22:20 pm »
I didn't claim that. 



It is implicit in your argument.   It is in fact the very soul of your argument.
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Offline r9etb

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #167 on: May 02, 2017, 05:36:57 pm »
It is implicit in your argument.   It is in fact the very soul of your argument.

Perhaps your fevered imagination might be better employed in thoughts of romantic conquest.  It's inadequate to the task of rational discussion.

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #168 on: May 02, 2017, 05:44:01 pm »
While I like the tone of your post a lot (very substantive and not much vituperation) there are some factual inaccuracies in the post. There are some interesting points raised that I confess I am not well-studied enough in to comment.  That being said...

You wrote: "... focusing on why the Southern states left, (as they had the right to do for whatever reason)instead of why the Northern states thought they had a right to force them back in." 

The U.S. Constitution provides for secession only by due process. Since the Southern States did not follow that process, their attempt to secede was according to Constitutional provisions, illegal and the Federal government had a legal authority to regard the rebels as being in violation of the Constitution in the formation of the Confederacy and the subsequent secession.


The Constitution says nothing of Secession.   There is no "due process"  for leaving the Union,  just as there was no "due process"  for leaving England. 


The founders articulated the principle that they had a natural law based right to leave the English Union.   If this "nature's law"  right could break the bonds holding the states to a thousand year old empire,  then why would this same principle not be sufficient to break the bonds of a nation that is only "four score and seven years"  Old? 


The Constitution is the Daughter of the Declaration.   The Declaration founded an Independent government,  and it's subsequent authority based on the Principle articulated in the Declaration,  is what gave the US Constitution legitimacy in the first place.   


The principle of the Declaration override the Monarchy.   If it is true,  it overrides the Constitution as well.   



You stated more than once that "slavery was not the reason" the Union states went to war with the Confederacy. That is not entirely true.


It is entirely true.   Lincoln repeatedly assured them that he not only had no intentions of doing anything about slavery,   but he believed that he did not have any authority to do anything about it.    Do you want me to quote his words on the subject?   


The Union invasion force was not intended to Free slaves,  it was intended to subjugate Southerners.   It only eventually freed slaves because this was useful to their goal of subjugating the Southerners.   



It may be more correct to state that slavery was not the singular reason. But it very definitely was a reason, if for nothing else than the fact that the U.S. Constitution (ratified in 1787) provided for discontinuation of slavery as a legal institution in the USA after 50 years (which had passed).

 The slave states had already been granted a de facto extension on that, so there is no legal basis for the Confederacy to claim that the Constitutional requirement did not apply to them.




You are speaking nonsense here.  The constitution makes no provision for discontinuing slavery.   It has a clause that allows congress to discontinue the importation of slaves after 1808,  (which they did)   but it says nothing about discontinuing slavery.  In fact,  it is closer to saying the opposite.   It does have a specific clause that guarantees constitutional protection for slavery.   

It is Article IV,  Section II.   


Beyond that,  when Lincoln gave his first inaugural speech,   he stated that he supported the Corwin Amendment.   The Corwin Amendment would have made it virtually impossible to abolish slavery.   



I'll give you quotes and links for all of the above if you want them.   



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Offline musiclady

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #169 on: May 02, 2017, 05:45:11 pm »
Yep 30 minute boat ride.  We rented a house for  a week on the ocean while in Charleston. 5 couples to defray the cost. Came out just slightly more than a really nice hotel

@musiclady

Sounds wonderful!  We were visiting relatives in Columbia and just had time to drive down, drive around, take the ferry out to the fort and check out the museum.

We make it a point to visit as many battlefields as we can, so we figured we should see where the fighting started.

We also have relatives in Franklin, TN, where there was a horrific battle toward the end of the war, with some incredible stupidity on the Confederate leaders' part costing many lives.   There's also a very good book, written about the woman who used their plantation in Franklin (Carnton) as a hospital and cemetery for Confederate troops.  It's called Widow of the South, and I highly recommend it to anyone who's interested in Civil War history.

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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #170 on: May 02, 2017, 05:54:16 pm »
Perhaps your fevered imagination might be better employed in thoughts of romantic conquest.  It's inadequate to the task of rational discussion.


My premise is clearly articulated.  According to the Founding document of this nation,  all people's have a right to "dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them"...

The Southern states chose to exercise this Right.    The Presidency of the Union promised them slavery if they would stay.  The Congress of the Union promised them a constitutional amendment to protect slavery if they would stay.   When they refused,  Lincoln launched a war to stop their independence from his control.   

18 months after he invaded,   he said he was going to free their slaves if they didn't stop fighting.   They didn't stop fighting,   so he did it.     


It wasn't what he set out to do,  or even intended to do,   it is what he eventually chose to do in an effort to vanquish them.   


But he did it eighteen months too late to claim it was why they were fighting the war. 



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Offline LateForLunch

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #171 on: May 02, 2017, 06:04:00 pm »
Sounds wonderful!  We were visiting relatives in Columbia and just had time to drive down, drive around, take the ferry out to the fort and check out the museum.

We make it a point to visit as many battlefields as we can, so we figured we should see where the fighting started.

We also have relatives in Franklin, TN, where there was a horrific battle toward the end of the war, with some incredible stupidity on the Confederate leaders' part costing many lives.   There's also a very good book, written about the woman who used their plantation in Franklin (Carnton) as a hospital and cemetery for Confederate troops.  It's called Widow of the South, and I highly recommend it to anyone who's interested in Civil War history.

@mirraflake

Confederate General Hood was a perfect example of someone who should never have held command of any significant fighting force. He thought emotionally, not strategically.

Apparently Sherman denied Hood the opportunity to interfere with his supply routes by choosing to loot as he marched through the south (the infamous march to the sea) thus precluding any strategery (sic) by Hood to disrupt Sherman's forces by severing supply lines. Hood, being aggressive by nature, leapt into rash action. He devised a grotesquely overly-ambitious (insane) offensive assault plan on key, overwhelmingly well-defended Union-held cities which ultimately gave the word "failure" a new definition.

This was similar to another infamous battle (I can't remember which) in which Confederate troops charged uphill into a well-fortified enemy at the top to be cut down by the hundreds. Though the courage of the Confederate troops which charged uphill into the face of the enemy fire over and over again could not be denied, the strategic I.Q. of their field commanders/generals very definitely could. It gave the term "idiotic" an entirely new definition.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 06:10:47 pm by LateForLunch »
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Offline Suppressed

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #172 on: May 02, 2017, 06:18:03 pm »
The issue of slavery motivated the average citizen of the north, not its politicians. The issue of individual & state sovereignty motivated the average southerner.

I think this has more truth than many of the claims here.  It's obvious that slavery couldn't be the entire issue, though, as slaveholding still occurred in the Union.  It was an invasion of the Confederacy, not an invasion of slaveholding areas.
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Offline kevindavis007

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #173 on: May 02, 2017, 06:19:38 pm »
I think this has more truth than many of the claims here.  It's obvious that slavery couldn't be the entire issue, though, as slaveholding still occurred in the Union.  It was an invasion of the Confederacy, not an invasion of slaveholding areas.


Again, who fired the first shot?
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Offline ABX

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Re: Trump: 'Why was there the Civil War?'
« Reply #174 on: May 02, 2017, 06:51:58 pm »
Trump's secret notes give some ideas of how he thinks the Civil War could have been avoided.