Author Topic: NYT....In Major Defeat for Trump, Push to Repeal Health Law Fails  (Read 7232 times)

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Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: NYT....In Major Defeat for Trump, Push to Repeal Health Law Fails
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2017, 11:40:44 am »
@240B

In theory and by the law of economics it should.

But we have a Federal Reserve to prop garbage like this up.

Social security has been in a state of collapse for decades yet remains animated like a zombie.

Same with standard public vs charter schools. An under performing charter school will be closed in a few years while a failing public school will stumble along for decades eating young brains.

Govt subsidizes failure.

Offline EC

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Re: NYT....In Major Defeat for Trump, Push to Repeal Health Law Fails
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2017, 11:41:37 am »
There's a couple of problems with letting Obamacare implode:

1/ "The Republicans killed it." It's BS, but that is going to be the wail from the left. It will be effective because ...

2/ People get hurt when things blow up. When Obamacare collapses as it will, a lot of people are going to get hurt. They are not going to blame the Worm. They will blame the party on who's watch the collapse happens.
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Online bigheadfred

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Re: NYT....In Major Defeat for Trump, Push to Repeal Health Law Fails
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2017, 01:09:21 pm »
What really needs to happen for health care reform is to break the back of the collusion between health care providers and health insurers.

PEOPLE AREN'T ALLOWED TO AFFORD HEALTH CARE.

If anyone cares to do the research you will see what I am getting at.

A couple of things:

Free Market Healthcare Reform


Making insurance a much worse deal is the fact that America’s insured often must pay more out-of-pocket for a treatment than someone would pay who was uninsured and negotiated a cash price prior to being treated.


https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/health-care/item/25568-free-market-healthcare-reform

An example of true cost.

http://truecostofhealthcare.net/

Kick health providers, and insurers out on the street. Make them scramble for profits just like any other business in this country.

I thought there were laws to prevent monopolies. Not when it comes to your health care.


She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: NYT....In Major Defeat for Trump, Push to Repeal Health Law Fails
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2017, 01:43:33 pm »
@bigheadfred

Insurance is the single biggest cost increaser of health care there is.

In 1964 my hospital birth and 3 day stay in the hospital only cost around $75 which was about 2 weeks pay for my dad who was a garbageman at the time. Today its several thousand dollars.

Few people had health insurance in those days and few employers provided it.

Offline anubias

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Re: NYT....In Major Defeat for Trump, Push to Repeal Health Law Fails
« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2017, 02:03:53 pm »
I went to the doc last week.  He ordered a ridiculous amount of tests that had nothing to do with the reason I went in there.  When I piped up that I an uninsured, he backtracked and said I don't really need any of those tests, wrote me a script, I paid a greatly reduced rate bill and left. 

I was livid when we lost our insurance when 0care was initiated.  Now we pay much less than when we had insurance.  Not much more than my copays were without paying the premiums.  Of course if a catastrophic illness occurs, we will be in trouble.  Catastrophic-only insurance cannot be purchased due to 0care.

Offline Victoria33

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Re: NYT....In Major Defeat for Trump, Push to Repeal Health Law Fails
« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2017, 02:32:46 pm »
I went to the doc last week.  He ordered a ridiculous amount of tests that had nothing to do with the reason I went in there.  When I piped up that I an uninsured, he backtracked and said I don't really need any of those tests, wrote me a script, I paid a greatly reduced rate bill and left. 
@anubias
@bigheadfred

You are so right about this.  I have been in the emergency room twice in my life and both happened within the last two years.  One was when a car hit ours on my side of the car and I couldn't move my neck.  EMS got there and took me to the trauma hospital nearby.  With the neck brace on I couldn't see anything around me, was stuck looking at the ceiling.  X-rays and MRI were done.  Neck wasn't broken and I got to go home.  I have Medicare and a supplemental policy.  When I got the bill, it was many thousands of dollars and tests were listed they didn't do.

A year later, I fell outside and my face smashed down on a big rock.  Ambulance took me to same trauma hospital.  X-rays on knee and MRI on face/skull.  Facial bones were not broken, left side of face was black and left eye full of blood, cornea scratched, but nothing broken.  Knee not broken.  Knee was bleeding on their sheets, but they didn't do anything to stop it.  Since nothing broken, sent me home.   When got home, stopped my knee from bleeding and put antibiotic cream on it and bandaged it.  Later got bill, many thousands of dollars and tests they didn't do.

When you have to be taken to an emergency room, there is something really wrong and you are not thinking of how much your care might cost.  The first time, I hoped my neck wasn't broken and the second time, hoped my skull/face wasn't broken.  I was not thinking they (or the doc who sends a separate bill which was over $1,000) might cheat on the bill and put things they didn't do.  Didn't think about they would charge thousands of dollars for an x-ray and/or MRI. 

It is absolutely wrong for hospitals to charge what they do and to list tests they don't do.  I wonder what the charge in both cases would have been if I had no insurance like you.  In my case for both times, I paid nothing but I pay about $400 a month for the two insurances.  If I had no insurance, what would they have charged me?   None of this is right - it is a farce.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2017, 02:39:18 pm by Victoria33 »

Online bigheadfred

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Re: NYT....In Major Defeat for Trump, Push to Repeal Health Law Fails
« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2017, 03:04:32 pm »
I went to the doc last week.  He ordered a ridiculous amount of tests that had nothing to do with the reason I went in there.  When I piped up that I an uninsured, he backtracked and said I don't really need any of those tests, wrote me a script, I paid a greatly reduced rate bill and left. 

I was livid when we lost our insurance when 0care was initiated.  Now we pay much less than when we had insurance.  Not much more than my copays were without paying the premiums.  Of course if a catastrophic illness occurs, we will be in trouble.  Catastrophic-only insurance cannot be purchased due to 0care.

We are EXACTLY in the same spot with healthcare. EXACTLY.



She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline anubias

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Re: NYT....In Major Defeat for Trump, Push to Repeal Health Law Fails
« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2017, 03:04:51 pm »
@Victoria33

I can't tell you what your trauma facility would have done, but I do know what the hospital did for me on the two occasions that I have been to the ER since losing insurance.  The hospital I chose was a "Methodist" hospital that was closest to me.  I was told that "charity" pays for the uninsured even though I was willing to pay the bill.  I do not know if it was truly charity from donors to the hospital or if it was our taxes that paid the hospital for the uninsured.  I never received a bill.

I did receive bills from the docs that saw me.  Both were a $1000 reduced to $160 due to being uninsured.  While I was happy to receive the reduced bills, I was stunned at the difference in the cost.  I felt rather foolish for paying insurance premiums along with a $150 ER copay all those years that I realized was a hidden form of socialism taking from me (my premiums) to pay for others.  Frankly, I suspect we have had socialized medicine all along disguised as insurance.

I would like to be able to have a catastrophic policy though.  I do dread the financial ruin if one of us develops a catastrophic illness.  For all I know, the government probably picks up the tab for the uninsured as well, but I'd prefer not to find out.  I am infuriated that I am unable to buy a catastrophic policy.  I should be free to choose the policy that I want with whom I want.

Offline anubias

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Re: NYT....In Major Defeat for Trump, Push to Repeal Health Law Fails
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2017, 03:13:35 pm »
We are EXACTLY in the same spot with healthcare. EXACTLY.

Thus the reason I am furious with Ryan.  O'bammy didn't mind taking away our insurance, but Ryan doesn't dare tick off some Dem voters by taking away those that are receiving FREE healthcare with 0care?  Does he not realize that most Conservatives have refused to sign up for 0care?  His constituency or what was his constituency until he decided he needed to kneecap us for having the audacity for supporting Cruz and/or Trump in the primaries.  We shall all be taught a lesson I am afraid.

I want that man's head on a platter with a Conservative to replace him post-haste.

Online bigheadfred

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Re: NYT....In Major Defeat for Trump, Push to Repeal Health Law Fails
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2017, 03:19:54 pm »
I know people are sick of my talking about my now former problem with the Hep C, but I only want to put out the information.

The cost of that treatment here--the medication for the one drug-is $84,000. A 5000% profit margin. Yes, because of my circumstances they gave me that treatment for free. But if they hadn't I considered the price completely unaffordable. If it doesn't work I die and leave my wife with that bill? NO. I've heard all the rebuttals about the cost of research blah, blah, blah.

If they had not helped me my next best option would have been to go to India and live there for 3 months. The cost there for the exact same treatment is in the $700 range. Airfare, room and board, and treatment would have been far far less than the $84k here.

I have no problem with paying my way. What I am saying is give a man a chance.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline Victoria33

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Re: NYT....In Major Defeat for Trump, Push to Repeal Health Law Fails
« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2017, 04:43:39 pm »
The cost of that treatment here--the medication for the one drug-is $84,000.
@bigheadfred

Most people wouldn't know to try to get that drug for free, so they die.  Most of us could not pay $84,000 because we don't have that much just sitting around.

Your $84,000 for the drug is the same thing happening in hospitals that happened to me, many thousands of dollars for an ex-ray/MRI, and charges for tests they didn't do.  I think the whole bill was about $20,000 in both cases, plus the separate doctor bill of over $1,000.  What the doctor did was look at the x-rays/MRIs and determine nothing was broken.  He saw me when they brought me in and came back later to say nothing was broken.  That was it for him.

People with Obamacare do not have health insurance - they have a piece of paper and a card causing them to pay thousands in premiums with a deductible so high they have to pay for all their healthcare.  That piece of paper and their insurance card is worthless unless they get cancer or numerous heart attacks.  Even then, they would not have that much money - having to pay the multiple thousands before the insurance would kick in and then they have to pay 20% of the rest of the bills after it kicks in.

Democrats know this is crap but it allows them to say anyone can have healthcare now.  That of course, is a lie.  People just have a piece of paper and a card.

Thank goodness you are still alive and well now.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2017, 04:46:25 pm by Victoria33 »

Offline XenaLee

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Re: NYT....In Major Defeat for Trump, Push to Repeal Health Law Fails
« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2017, 05:23:24 pm »
@240B

In theory and by the law of economics it should.

But we have a Federal Reserve to prop garbage like this up.

Yes, we have a Federal Reserve that has been propping up a Democrat administration for over eight years by keeping interest rates low.  But don't expect that to continue.... now that Republicans have a majority control plus the White House.  They (the left) will bring it all down (again) just so they can blame the GOP.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2017, 05:24:03 pm by XenaLee »
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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: NYT....In Major Defeat for Trump, Push to Repeal Health Law Fails
« Reply #37 on: March 25, 2017, 06:13:21 pm »
@Smokin Joe

But that wasn't what they have been telling the folks back home who have been clamoring for the repeal of this disaster. From the beginning, some 60% of Americans were in favor of repeal, and while that looks highly unlikely, those same people who were aghast at Roberts' failure to find a penalty for not purchasing a product to be unconstitutional are again aghast that those who voted for repeal when there was no chance of anything but a veto, now will not when there is a chance the bill will be signed into law.

The polls were always more complicated than that.  Very rarely was there actually a majority saying repeal it and do nothing else.  Generally, votes were divided between "fix", "repeal and replace", and "repeal".  And as it turned out, some specific parts of Obamacare, like no denial for pre-existing conditions and coverage of adult children to age 26, usually polled well.  I personally think both are terrible ideas, and I know you do as well.  But we aren't, and never were, the majority.  And members of Congress knew that.  This is from 2014:

Protection against preexisting-condition exclusions is a core guarantee of Obamacare, and one that consistently garners the greatest public approval. In a Kaiser Family Foundation tracking poll in March 2014, some 70% of respondents had a favorable view of the rule, a result that spanned political coloration -- even 69% of Republicans were in favor. (See chart below.)


http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-pre-existing-conditions-20151104-column.html

Quote
No, apparently there was no intent to actually repeal the thing, any more than America had a snowball's chance in Hell of seeing it thrown out at the SCOTUS.

I don't think that's fair.  I think a solid 85-90% of the GOP Caucus in each House honestly intend/desired to repeal ObamaCare completely.  The problem has always been that there were enough moderates who didn't want to eliminate it completely to deprive the rest of a majority.   It's not Senator Cruz' fault that Senator Portman insists on preserving Medicaid expansion.

Quote
That is the reason Ryan pulled the bill. If it had gone for a vote, someone would have voted for it, and they'd have had some awkward moments at townhall meetings back in their home district explaining that.

I disagree with your premise that there really is a majority in each district that truly wanted every little bit of ObamaCare repealed with no replacement.  I'm in Ohio, and I know that the guaranteed issue and the 26 year old extension were both popular.   Portman may get hung if ObamaCare isn't fixed, but he probably would have been hung for eliminating guaranteed issue and the 26 year old extension as well.

Quote
This way they can hide behind the actions of the speaker.

I think Ryan personally would be thrilled to repeal the entire thing, and either not replace it, or deal with that down the road.  He's just constrained by a lack of votes for that position, and knows it won't pass.

[quoteTrump's willingness to keep parts of the bill enables this nonsense, too.[/quote]

Agree.
 
Quote
Which tells me the scammers on The Hill are lining their pockets over this deal. There can be no other explanation for throwing out the 94% of the American people who got the shaft.

There is more than 6% of the population that supports the pre-existing condition inclusion, and the age 26 expansion.  You and I know that both of those carry a lot of baggage that inflates costs, but a great many people don't see it that way.  They like those things, and want to have those things and lower costs.  It's unrealistic, but people vote all the time based off unrealistic expectations. 

Quote
The deal was simple. We sent them to Washington to get rid of Obamacare.

But it really wasn't a "simple" deal at all.  Us self-professed conservatives sent them there for that reason, but a lot of people voted for Republicans based on promises that they would "repeal" Obama but also keep some things.  I saw the ads Portman ran in Ohio myself.  He ran on "Repeal ObamaCare, but also....."  He's essentially stuck with that.

Online Hoodat

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Re: NYT....In Major Defeat for Trump, Push to Repeal Health Law Fails
« Reply #38 on: March 25, 2017, 06:41:13 pm »
2/ People get hurt when things blow up. When Obamacare collapses as it will, a lot of people are going to get hurt.

People are getting hurt now.  What about them?
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Offline Emjay

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Re: NYT....In Major Defeat for Trump, Push to Repeal Health Law Fails
« Reply #39 on: March 25, 2017, 06:43:49 pm »
And that was the problem!

After 7 years of hearing "give us the power and we will repeal this day one" they didn't do it. They didn't have a plan that they could agree on and Ryan presented a bill that no one was allowed to amend except him. The Rats have to be excited they will gain seats in 2018 and maybe the POTUS in 2020.

I can't believe the Pubs threw away this once in a lifetime opportunity.

It's not a once in a lifetime opportunity.  It is a once in March of 2017 opportunity.  We still have a Republican president and a Republican congress and every opportunity to construct a bill that we can sell to the people who didn't like this one.
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Offline Emjay

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Re: NYT....In Major Defeat for Trump, Push to Repeal Health Law Fails
« Reply #40 on: March 25, 2017, 06:46:30 pm »
Best thing that could be done now is to quickly get a vote in the House on a straight-up repeal -- have the vote regardless of whether or not there are enough votes for it to pass.  And regardless of what would happen to the bill in the Senate.

I agree with you on that.  That could be fought for with fervor and probably would have passed.
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Offline EC

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Re: NYT....In Major Defeat for Trump, Push to Repeal Health Law Fails
« Reply #41 on: March 25, 2017, 06:47:25 pm »
People are getting hurt now.  What about them?

The RINO's aren't getting the blame for those.
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Offline Emjay

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Re: NYT....In Major Defeat for Trump, Push to Repeal Health Law Fails
« Reply #42 on: March 25, 2017, 06:49:23 pm »
Ryan wants to keep ObamaCare and he made it happen

That is a flat out lie.
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Offline LMAO

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Re: NYT....In Major Defeat for Trump, Push to Repeal Health Law Fails
« Reply #43 on: March 25, 2017, 06:51:25 pm »
Yes, we have a Federal Reserve that has been propping up a Democrat administration for over eight years by keeping interest rates low.  But don't expect that to continue.... now that Republicans have a majority control plus the White House.  They (the left) will bring it all down (again) just so they can blame the GOP.

But even with them propping up the economy in the last eight years we still had one of the worst recoveries.
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Offline Emjay

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Re: NYT....In Major Defeat for Trump, Push to Repeal Health Law Fails
« Reply #44 on: March 25, 2017, 06:54:37 pm »
I went to the doc last week.  He ordered a ridiculous amount of tests that had nothing to do with the reason I went in there.  When I piped up that I an uninsured, he backtracked and said I don't really need any of those tests, wrote me a script, I paid a greatly reduced rate bill and left. 

I was livid when we lost our insurance when 0care was initiated.  Now we pay much less than when we had insurance.  Not much more than my copays were without paying the premiums.  Of course if a catastrophic illness occurs, we will be in trouble.  Catastrophic-only insurance cannot be purchased due to 0care.

Interesting anecdote.  We should be able to purchase catastrophic health care.  We should figure out how much health expense we could pay without going bankrupt.  If we want to gamble on that ... say, risking selling one's cars or going into debt, then we should be allowed to.  But those that do that gamble should not expect someone else to rescue them.
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Offline Emjay

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Re: NYT....In Major Defeat for Trump, Push to Repeal Health Law Fails
« Reply #45 on: March 25, 2017, 06:55:32 pm »
@bigheadfred

Insurance is the single biggest cost increaser of health care there is.

In 1964 my hospital birth and 3 day stay in the hospital only cost around $75 which was about 2 weeks pay for my dad who was a garbageman at the time. Today its several thousand dollars.

Few people had health insurance in those days and few employers provided it.

I'd tell you what my birth cost but nobody would believe it.
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Offline Emjay

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Re: NYT....In Major Defeat for Trump, Push to Repeal Health Law Fails
« Reply #46 on: March 25, 2017, 06:59:25 pm »
@Smokin Joe

The polls were always more complicated than that.  Very rarely was there actually a majority saying repeal it and do nothing else.  Generally, votes were divided between "fix", "repeal and replace", and "repeal".  And as it turned out, some specific parts of Obamacare, like no denial for pre-existing conditions and coverage of adult children to age 26, usually polled well.  I personally think both are terrible ideas, and I know you do as well.  But we aren't, and never were, the majority.  And members of Congress knew that.  This is from 2014:

Protection against preexisting-condition exclusions is a core guarantee of Obamacare, and one that consistently garners the greatest public approval. In a Kaiser Family Foundation tracking poll in March 2014, some 70% of respondents had a favorable view of the rule, a result that spanned political coloration -- even 69% of Republicans were in favor. (See chart below.)


http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-pre-existing-conditions-20151104-column.html

I don't think that's fair.  I think a solid 85-90% of the GOP Caucus in each House honestly intend/desired to repeal ObamaCare completely.  The problem has always been that there were enough moderates who didn't want to eliminate it completely to deprive the rest of a majority.   It's not Senator Cruz' fault that Senator Portman insists on preserving Medicaid expansion.

I disagree with your premise that there really is a majority in each district that truly wanted every little bit of ObamaCare repealed with no replacement.  I'm in Ohio, and I know that the guaranteed issue and the 26 year old extension were both popular.   Portman may get hung if ObamaCare isn't fixed, but he probably would have been hung for eliminating guaranteed issue and the 26 year old extension as well.

I think Ryan personally would be thrilled to repeal the entire thing, and either not replace it, or deal with that down the road.  He's just constrained by a lack of votes for that position, and knows it won't pass.

There is more than 6% of the population that supports the pre-existing condition inclusion, and the age 26 expansion.  You and I know that both of those carry a lot of baggage that inflates costs, but a great many people don't see it that way.  They like those things, and want to have those things and lower costs.  It's unrealistic, but people vote all the time based off unrealistic expectations. 

But it really wasn't a "simple" deal at all.  Us self-professed conservatives sent them there for that reason, but a lot of people voted for Republicans based on promises that they would "repeal" Obama but also keep some things.  I saw the ads Portman ran in Ohio myself.  He ran on "Repeal ObamaCare, but also....."  He's essentially stuck with that.

Dammit, Bill.  Stop making so much sense.  It confuses us.
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Online bigheadfred

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Re: NYT....In Major Defeat for Trump, Push to Repeal Health Law Fails
« Reply #47 on: March 25, 2017, 07:01:14 pm »
I'd tell you what my birth cost but nobody would believe it.

I hope it wasn't the life of your mother.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline Emjay

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Re: NYT....In Major Defeat for Trump, Push to Repeal Health Law Fails
« Reply #48 on: March 25, 2017, 07:05:49 pm »
I hope it wasn't the life of your mother.

No, I would never be facetious about that.  Just reading that hurt my heart.
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Offline GtHawk

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Re: NYT....In Major Defeat for Trump, Push to Repeal Health Law Fails
« Reply #49 on: March 25, 2017, 07:07:06 pm »
@Victoria33

I can't tell you what your trauma facility would have done, but I do know what the hospital did for me on the two occasions that I have been to the ER since losing insurance.  The hospital I chose was a "Methodist" hospital that was closest to me.  I was told that "charity" pays for the uninsured even though I was willing to pay the bill.  I do not know if it was truly charity from donors to the hospital or if it was our taxes that paid the hospital for the uninsured.  I never received a bill.

I did receive bills from the docs that saw me.  Both were a $1000 reduced to $160 due to being uninsured.  While I was happy to receive the reduced bills, I was stunned at the difference in the cost.  I felt rather foolish for paying insurance premiums along with a $150 ER copay all those years that I realized was a hidden form of socialism taking from me (my premiums) to pay for others.  Frankly, I suspect we have had socialized medicine all along disguised as insurance.

I would like to be able to have a catastrophic policy though.  I do dread the financial ruin if one of us develops a catastrophic illness.  For all I know, the government probably picks up the tab for the uninsured as well, but I'd prefer not to find out.  I am infuriated that I am unable to buy a catastrophic policy.  I should be free to choose the policy that I want with whom I want.
Glad you were able to get the care you needed, but please keep in mind that the the doctor's bill before being reduced was more than likely what the ICD required for the billing. Do not be confused at the billable amount for a service and what a doctor actually receives, they are wildly different amounts, I know, the wife is a CPC (Certified Professional Coder) and it's her business. You may or may not be amazed at how many providers have given up their practices due to the insane costs and requirements of Obamacare. Just another reason why patchwork repairs are ridiculous.
@anubias
« Last Edit: March 25, 2017, 07:07:31 pm by GtHawk »