Colonizing Mars Might Require Humans to Radically Alter Their Bodies and Minds

[bigheadfred]

Training in Antarctica or on the International Space Station won't provide adequate preparation for human settlement on Mars, according to new research.

 In 2016, two astronauts finished nearly a year of work on the International Space Station. NASA's Scott Kelly and Russia's Mikhail Kornienko were studied closely for changes in their physical and psychological health.

NASA touts the mission as part of its "Journey to Mars", in which it hopes to send humans to the Red Planet by the 2030s. But a recent paper published in the journal Space Policy argues that there are so many aspects to a Martian colony that it is all but impossible to simulate the parameters on Earth.

http://www.seeker.com/colonizing-mars-might-require-humans-to-radically-alter-their-bodies-a-2304346104.html

[Cripplecreek]

Humans are incredibly adaptable creatures. The most adaptable on the planet but I agree that technological, surgical and genetic help will be needed.

The Pandorum flick had an interesting answer to the problem. Passengers on the ship were given a drug that led to rapid adaption (evolution) to the environment of the planet they were going to.

[bigheadfred]

Humans are incredibly adaptable creatures. The most adaptable on the planet but I agree that technological, surgical and genetic help will be needed.

The Pandorum flick had an interesting answer to the problem. Passengers on the ship were given a drug that led to rapid adaption (evolution) to the environment of the planet they were going to.

An adaptation to more efficiently use oxygen and resistance to cold would probably help.

[Cripplecreek]

An adaptation to more efficiently use oxygen and resistance to cold would probably help.

Exactly. Its not so much about making humans so adapted to mars that is "human habitable" but to make it more human habitable to make us less reliant on technology to survive there.

We would still need heated and pressurized suits and shelter but pressures could be kept at 25 percent earth pressure or temperatures kept much lower. Its a huge energy savings and survivability at lower temps and pressures in emergencies is increased.

[roamer_1]

@Quix

As in the days of Noah....

[Quix]

@Quix

As in the days of Noah....

YUP.

Thanks.

[Cripplecreek]

Another good adaptation would be smaller humans that take up less space and eat less food. Humans that only grow to the size of a 10 year old child could be advantageous.

[240B]

Just like in all the books and movies, once we colonize Mars humans and martians will become two separate species. They will no longer be able to live on Earth without a suit and vice versa. Eventually and inevitably, these two former partners will begin to have disputes over resources and political issues. These disputes will escalate until we are at full blown war. Earth will win the war but the martians form an underground which will defeat Earth's occupation. Mars will setup powerful planetary defense systems. The moon becomes the DMZ and all transfers of goods or meetings happen there.

That's the what I see happening. It is a shame. But I can see no way to avoid it.

[Cripplecreek]

Just like in all the books and movies, once we colonize Mars humans and martians will become two separate species. They will no longer be able to live on Earth without a suit and vice versa. Eventually and inevitably, these two former partners will begin to have disputes over resources and political issues. These disputes will escalate until we are at full blown war. Earth will win the war but the martians form an underground which will defeat Earth's occupation. Mars will setup powerful planetary defense systems. The moon becomes the DMZ and all transfers of goods or meetings happen there.

That's the what I see happening. It is a shame. But I can see no way to avoid it.

There is no shame about it. I think most of us see it as a good and necessary thing for humanoid expansion. Eventually earth and mars would find themselves under friendly terms as independent sovereign planets much like the USA and Britain today.

The very first sci fi book I remember from my childhood was about a revolt against earth (Revolt on Alpha C). The right and desire for self determination don't disappear with distance.

[240B]

There factually is no doubt that we will become two distinct species. For example, they will become much taller, and will have a different form of vision. To speed this up they need to breed. Breed young, and breed often. The sooner we get a few generations born, the sooner and more pronounced the adaptations will be.

This is important because I doubt the first gen astronauts will live very long after arriving because they are adapted to live on Earth. Their bones will degenerate, muscle will atrophy, among other things. However, the second generation onward should fare much better.

[jmyrlefuller]

An adaptation to more efficiently use oxygen and resistance to cold would probably help.

The sherpas that occupy the Himalayas have exactly those traits. They would make excellent case studies.

[Ghost Bear]

SF has been there, done that...

[Smokin Joe]

The sherpas that occupy the Himalayas have exactly those traits. They would make excellent case studies.

Yeah, I was thinking midget sherpas would be ideal...

[Gefn]

SF has been there, done that...

I was told to read the Mars trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson.

[Smokin Joe]

There is no shame about it. I think most of us see it as a good and necessary thing for humanoid expansion. Eventually earth and mars would find themselves under friendly terms as independent sovereign planets much like the USA and Britain today.

The very first sci fi book I remember from my childhood was about a revolt against earth (Revolt on Alpha C). The right and desire for self determination don't disappear with distance.

Nor will they disappear with other differences in needs and resources as well. If you taxed each earthling a liter of water a year, that would be one thing in terms of resources, someone on Mars, something entirely different. Imagine earth imposed BMI and 'health' parameters, for instance, after a few generations on Mars (which make as much sense as imposing that single standard or dietary constraints on several regional genetic pools in the US today). One size does not fit all, even on a smaller than interplanetary scale.

[catfish1957]

Before or after having to fight off "The Belters"

[Smokin Joe]

Before or after having to fight off "The Belters"

I see the 'belters' as being in much the same position as those of us who live in states that provide the raw materials of industry. We get paid little for the materials, get sold back the products at insane markups, and get taxed on all of it by people who never get their fingernails dirty.

In almost every human conflict, there are reasons for one side or the other to be aggrieved. Belters won't be any happier about a 'corporate' in some city on Earth making decisions about what they "need", any more than a farmer in North Dakota likes some chairborne commando with a manicure and Italian loafers instead of workboots in DC telling them how to plant. It never has 'flown', it never will.
The only way such a federation will hold together is if the power of government is localized (and not corrupt) as much as possible. Micromanagement from afar will lead to war sooner rather than later.

[Joe Wooten]

I was told to read the Mars trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson.

Keep a barf bag handy for when Robinson goes off on a socialist rant. He ruined the trilogy with that crapola.

[Gefn]

Keep a barf bag handy for when Robinson goes off on a socialist rant. He ruined the trilogy with that crapola.

Thanks. The reviews on Amazon were mixed. They were saying he can write like a dream but his politics ruined a lot of it for many readers.

I figured I'd go to my library this week and read a chapter or two and see for myself. I had never heard of him before yesterday. @Joe Wooten

[InHeavenThereIsNoBeer]

I was told to read the Mars trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson.

You must have really ticked someone off.

[Gefn]

You must have really ticked someone off.

No, one of my cousins children told me about him. She knows I like SF, but haven't read anything new since the millennium. I actually turned her on to SF when she was 12, I bought her Bradbury and Asimov.

[InHeavenThereIsNoBeer]

No, one of my cousins children told me about him. She knows I like SF, but haven't read anything new since the millennium. I actually turned her on to SF when she was 12, I bought her Bradbury and Asimov.

I have the series on audiobooks stored on my computer in a folder called "Really boring Mars series".  If you can make it through all three books, you'll be three ahead of me (and I almost never give up on a book without finishing it).

[kevindavis007]

So???



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[kevindavis007]

Keep a barf bag handy for when Robinson goes off on a socialist rant. He ruined the trilogy with that crapola.

I read his books, and yes he ruined the trilogy with the Socialist rant..

[kevindavis007]

Just like in all the books and movies, once we colonize Mars humans and martians will become two separate species. They will no longer be able to live on Earth without a suit and vice versa. Eventually and inevitably, these two former partners will begin to have disputes over resources and political issues. These disputes will escalate until we are at full blown war. Earth will win the war but the martians form an underground which will defeat Earth's occupation. Mars will setup powerful planetary defense systems. The moon becomes the DMZ and all transfers of goods or meetings happen there.

That's the what I see happening. It is a shame. But I can see no way to avoid it.

That is how I see it as well.. I find nothing wrong being two different species.. Now that is true diversity.  I happen to be a proponent of modifying the human DNA to adapt of various planets if they can't be terraformed..

[kevindavis007]

No, one of my cousins children told me about him. She knows I like SF, but haven't read anything new since the millennium. I actually turned her on to SF when she was 12, I bought her Bradbury and Asimov.

@Freya


You might want to read the Mars books by Ben Bova..

[Cripplecreek]

Nor will they disappear with other differences in needs and resources as well. If you taxed each earthling a liter of water a year, that would be one thing in terms of resources, someone on Mars, something entirely different. Imagine earth imposed BMI and 'health' parameters, for instance, after a few generations on Mars (which make as much sense as imposing that single standard or dietary constraints on several regional genetic pools in the US today). One size does not fit all, even on a smaller than interplanetary scale.

Its also possible that there would be no major issues to fight over aside from Martian independence from earth. Mars doesn't really have any resources that would be worth the cost of exporting to earth. Once mars became a self sustaining and thriving entity, taxation and right of self determination would become the sore points.

I think the value of mars will be as a manufacturing center for further expansion into space. The lower gravity allows launches of larger payloads for assembly it Phobos or in orbit..

[Smokin Joe]

Its also possible that there would be no major issues to fight over aside from Martian independence from earth. Mars doesn't really have any resources that would be worth the cost of exporting to earth. Once mars became a self sustaining and thriving entity, taxation and right of self determination would become the sore points.

I think the value of mars will be as a manufacturing center for further expansion into space. The lower gravity allows launches of larger payloads for assembly it Phobos or in orbit..

I have greater manufacturing expectations for the Belt. Raw materials can be scanned and picked, low/no G manufacturing, unless that G-force is imparted (think centrifuge). Sure, it still takes force to move mass, whatever the weight is, but I think there are no-G manufacturing options that will become evident pretty fast.
The question for Belters will be one of self-sustainability. That will be difficult, at least at first, and tough to establish. All the folks on Mars will have to do is 'change their world'. The Belters will have to build theirs from scratch. Which will be easier to accomplish I don't know.

[Cripplecreek]

I have greater manufacturing expectations for the Belt. Raw materials can be scanned and picked, low/no G manufacturing, unless that G-force is imparted (think centrifuge). Sure, it still takes force to move mass, whatever the weight is, but I think there are no-G manufacturing options that will become evident pretty fast.
The question of r Belters will be one of self-sustainability. That will be difficult, at least at first, and tough to establish. All the folks on Mars will have to do is 'change their world'. The Belters will have to build theirs from scratch. Which will be easier to accomplish I don't know.

I see mars as more of a jumping off point and agree that the belters will become the industrialists of the system.

[kevindavis007]

I have greater manufacturing expectations for the Belt. Raw materials can be scanned and picked, low/no G manufacturing, unless that G-force is imparted (think centrifuge). Sure, it still takes force to move mass, whatever the weight is, but I think there are no-G manufacturing options that will become evident pretty fast.
The question of r Belters will be one of self-sustainability. That will be difficult, at least at first, and tough to establish. All the folks on Mars will have to do is 'change their world'. The Belters will have to build theirs from scratch. Which will be easier to accomplish I don't know.

Basically the Solar System could be the Solar System like in the Expanse.

[Smokin Joe]

Basically the Solar System could be the Solar System like in the Expanse.

One of the reasons I like the show is that it seems well thought out in that regard. The other is that human nature still governs the actions of humanity, despite all the touchy-feely social development sci-fi is often laced with. We are who and what we are, in many regards, and have been for millennia. It is our basic nature that leads to us explore and invent and yes,  conquer, whether that conquest be climbing a mountain or taking over the next country. It's wired in in there somewhere.

[Quix]

Just like in all the books and movies, once we colonize Mars humans and martians will become two separate species. They will no longer be able to live on Earth without a suit and vice versa. Eventually and inevitably, these two former partners will begin to have disputes over resources and political issues. These disputes will escalate until we are at full blown war. Earth will win the war but the martians form an underground which will defeat Earth's occupation. Mars will setup powerful planetary defense systems. The moon becomes the DMZ and all transfers of goods or meetings happen there.

That's the what I see happening. It is a shame. But I can see no way to avoid it.

I  don't  think that's remotely part of God's script for the  future.

imho, His script is the only one that matters.

Besides . . . it has often appeared to me on reflecting, that when human tech and  political systems reach a certain level, either we bring ourselves to our knees or God insures something happens that mushes things all up and mankind starts over at a very low tech level.

IF, as appears to be the case, earth is primarily designed to train and filter out a class of humble, loving, suffering-refined folks to 'rule and reign with Christ' over countless ages and worlds . . . then low tech cultures may work as well or better toward that goal than high tech cultures.

Having humans be refined by being "iron sharpening  iron" with one another learning to "submit one to another" and to be sacrificially loving and helpful to one another . . . works quite well enough in low tech cultures--maybe better.

Then there's  Almighty God Yehovah's promise: "Even  if they build their nests among the stars, yet will I bring them down."

[kevindavis007]

One of the reasons I like the show is that it seems well thought out in that regard. The other is that human nature still governs the actions of humanity, despite all the touchy-feely social development sci-fi is often laced with. We are who and what we are, in many regards, and have been for millennia. It is our basic nature that leads to us explore and invent and yes,  conquer, whether that conquest be climbing a mountain or taking over the next country. It's wired in in there somewhere.

I believe our future is going to more like the The Expanse / Firefly with Babylon 5 or Star Trek Technology.

[Quix]

Its also possible that there would be no major issues to fight over aside from Martian independence from earth. Mars doesn't really have any resources that would be worth the cost of exporting to earth. Once mars became a self sustaining and thriving entity, taxation and right of self determination would become the sore points.

I think the value of mars will be as a manufacturing center for further expansion into space. The lower gravity allows launches of larger payloads for assembly it Phobos or in orbit..

Exotic propulsion tech would likely remove the gravity issue in terms of lofting weight off planet.

. . . if we ever got to that point.

Ben Rich, retiring head of Lockheed Skunk Works has indicated we already use such tech.

[bigheadfred]

I  don't  think that's remotely part of God's script for the  future.

imho, His script is the only one that matters.

Besides . . . it has often appeared to me on reflecting, that when human tech and  political systems reach a certain level, either we bring ourselves to our knees or God insures something happens that mushes things all up and mankind starts over at a very low tech level.

IF, as appears to be the case, earth is primarily designed to train and filter out a class of humble, loving, suffering-refined folks to 'rule and reign with Christ' over countless ages and worlds . . . then low tech cultures may work as well or better toward that goal than high tech cultures.

Having humans be refined by being "iron sharpening  iron" with one another learning to "submit one to another" and to be sacrificially loving and helpful to one another . . . works quite well enough in low tech cultures--maybe better.

Then there's  Almighty God Yehovah's promise: "Even  if they build their nests among the stars, yet will I bring them down."

Then there's  Almighty God Yehovah's promise: "Even  if they build their nests among the stars, yet will I bring them down."

Pretty much says it .

[Smokin Joe]

I believe our future is going to more like the The Expanse / Firefly with Babylon 5 or Star Trek Technology.

Understanding gravity, warp drive, force fields (shields) will all be needed to really move out, but even a in-system expansion is a start.

[Cripplecreek]

Then there's  Almighty God Yehovah's promise: "Even  if they build their nests among the stars, yet will I bring them down."

Pretty much says it .

Says that God is still in control no matter where I am. I've never disputed it.

[roamer_1]

Then there's  Almighty God Yehovah's promise: "Even  if they build their nests among the stars, yet will I bring them down."

Pretty much says it .

Except 'they' are not us...

[Smokin Joe]

I  don't  think that's remotely part of God's script for the  future.

imho, His script is the only one that matters.

Besides . . . it has often appeared to me on reflecting, that when human tech and  political systems reach a certain level, either we bring ourselves to our knees or God insures something happens that mushes things all up and mankind starts over at a very low tech level.

IF, as appears to be the case, earth is primarily designed to train and filter out a class of humble, loving, suffering-refined folks to 'rule and reign with Christ' over countless ages and worlds . . . then low tech cultures may work as well or better toward that goal than high tech cultures.

Having humans be refined by being "iron sharpening  iron" with one another learning to "submit one to another" and to be sacrificially loving and helpful to one another . . . works quite well enough in low tech cultures--maybe better.

Then there's  Almighty God Yehovah's promise: "Even  if they build their nests among the stars, yet will I bring them down."

Since the tower of Babel, humans have been somewhat self-limiting. The libraries of Alexandria were reputed to have cures for cancer, for instance.
Every time we get close, someone decides to burn the books. In fact, that's how my mother referred to the cataclysmic episodes in human history as "burning the books" (and perhaps why we had a library at home).
We're close, as a species, to burning the books again and entering another dark age--if not the end of ages. Either we step out and 'conquer' in that  more philosophical sense, or we will likely devolve into another century of bloodletting, despite there being plenty of resources.

[kevindavis007]

Understanding gravity, warp drive, force fields (shields) will all be needed to really move out, but even a in-system expansion is a start.

That is why in the next 100 years The Expanse will be our future (hopefully the UN is not running things).

[InHeavenThereIsNoBeer]

Mars vs Earth seems inevitable.  The Earthlings will have pretty much footed the bill for everything, but the second or third generation Martians will likely see any Earth dominance (like taxation) over Mars as tyranny.  Getting much farther out than Mars, we need to simply accept that the "colonists" represent an independent "nation".

Lately I've been thinking about a world with no FTL, wormholes, inertial dampeners, etc.  Kind of makes inter-system war of any kind but all out invade and conquer obsolete.  With communication times measured in years and travel times measured in generations, who is going to want to get on a ship to attack another planet when the war might be over long before you get there?  An interesting twist is to also disallow hybernation, so the "soldiers" who embark will not be the ones doing the fighting, their job will be to raise families so their great great grandchildren will be the soldiers.

[bigheadfred]

This vid I posted has the truth about Mars in the first part. I found it entertaining.  ^-^

http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,253765.msg1258627.html#msg1258627

[Quix]

Except 'they' are not us...

How do you interpret that term in that context?

[Suppressed]

Another good adaptation would be smaller humans that take up less space and eat less food. Humans that only grow to the size of a 10 year old child could be advantageous.

Perhaps the martians of the future will look something like...

[kevindavis007]

Another good adaptation would be smaller humans that take up less space and eat less food. Humans that only grow to the size of a 10 year old child could be advantageous.

Those humans can run the sleeper ships while the normal humans is in stasis.. Did I just open a can of worms with that comment??

[Cripplecreek]

Perhaps the martians of the future will look something like...

After I said it I had the same thought. I just described the greys.

[bigheadfred]

Perhaps the martians of the future will look something like...

@Cripplecreek

Soooo, we are already there and all we need to do is get in touch with ourselves.

[bigheadfred]

Those humans can run the sleeper ships while the normal humans is in stasis.. Did I just open a can of worms with that comment??

Might as well have robots for that. Although there is the speculation the greys are just that.

[Quix]

This vid I posted has the truth about Mars in the first part. I found it entertaining.  ^-^

http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,253765.msg1258627.html#msg1258627

= = = = =


Welllllllllllll, I do not anticipate doing that again the rest of my life.
.
I forced myself to watch the whole thing simply out of respect for you as a person and my  telling you I'd watch it.
.
It is difficult for me to think a the tiniest part of it that I'd consider solid truth.
.
The whole thing and every significant part of it strikes me as a mangled together bunch of new age deception.
.
I do not doubt that the dark lord has been busy for millennia concocting layers upon layers and elaborations upon elaborations toward the END TIMES GREAT DECEPTION.
.
I do not doubt that such a video could conceivably seduce millions of folks to follow the yellow brick road to satanic tyranny of the worst order.
.
It may be good for me to be more aware of where such 'constructions on' "reality" currently are in some spheres of philosophical thought.
.
However, i don't plan to needlessly spend that much time with that much blatant, deceptive stuff ever again.
.
Cheers.

[Smokin Joe]

Might as well have robots for that. Although there is the speculation the greys are just that.

Be careful with that...."Good Morning, Doctor Chandra, I am ready for my first lesson."