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Offline TomSea

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Gorsuch Staunchly Opposes ‘Aid in Dying.’ Does It Matter?
« on: February 25, 2017, 03:20:57 pm »
Quote
Gorsuch Staunchly Opposes ‘Aid in Dying.’ Does It Matter?
Paula Span  THE NEW OLD AGE FEB. 24, 2017

Ever since President Trump nominated Judge Neil M. Gorsuch to fill the empty seat on the Supreme Court, interested parties have been combing through his writings and appellate court rulings looking for signs and portents.

If he’s confirmed, how might Judge Gorsuch vote on affirmative action questions? Or challenges to Roe v. Wade?

But nobody has to do much head-scratching over his position on medical aid in dying. In 2006, the year he was appointed to the federal Court of Appeals in Denver, Princeton University Press published Judge Gorsuch’s book, “The Future of Assisted Suicide and Euthanasia.”

It leaves little room for doubt. Over 226 pages (in paperback), Judge Gorsuch pursues a legal and philosophical argument that “assisted suicide and euthanasia” should be outlawed because “all human life is fundamentally and inherently valuable” and “the intentional taking of human life by private persons is always wrong.”

Continued: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/24/health/neil-gorsuch-aid-in-dying-supreme-court.html

Offline To-Whose-Benefit?

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Re: Gorsuch Staunchly Opposes ‘Aid in Dying.’ Does It Matter?
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2017, 07:35:52 pm »
Magnificent!

I know there'll be people with dreadful experiences of loved ones who were terminally ill, and suffered needlessly.

If ever there were a time and place to make an argument for true Civil Disobedience it would be for Judges to refuse to hear any case brought against those family members who acquired a painless way out for their loved one at home.

But the practice cannot be made legal 0n an Institutional Level because of its Potential For Abuse.

Remember what started the Exterminations in NAZI GERMANY.

Dollars and Cents.

A Long Shadow; Nazi Doctors, Moral Vulnerability And Contemporary Medical Culture

http://jme.bmj.com/content/38/7/435?sid=aceda3f9-6085-4457-8acd-fab641713ba2

"    Alessandra Colaianni, School of Medicine, Johns Hopkins University, 9 N Montford Avenue, Baltimore, MA 21224, USA; ccolaia1@jhmi.edu

Abstract

More than 7% of all German physicians became members of the Nazi SS during World War II, compared with less than 1% of the general population. In so doing, these doctors willingly participated in genocide, something that should have been antithetical to the values of their chosen profession. The participation of physicians in torture and murder both before and after World War II is a disturbing legacy seldom discussed in medical school, and underrecognised in contemporary medicine. Is there something inherent in being a physician that promotes a transition from healer to murderer? With this historical background in mind, the author, a medical student, defines and reflects upon moral vulnerabilities still endemic to contemporary medical culture.

http://dx.doi.org/10.1136/medethics-2011-100372


 
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Gorsuch Staunchly Opposes ‘Aid in Dying.’ Does It Matter?
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2017, 09:18:30 pm »
Considering the attitude of the patient can be manipulated pharmacologically and psychologically, even the idea of patient demanded suicide using medical means is ripe for abuse.

I don't know by what means The Almighty will call me home, but even that is just a transition. His Will be done. When I have passed, that transition will matter more to my survivors than it will to me.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Suppressed

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Re: Gorsuch Staunchly Opposes ‘Aid in Dying.’ Does It Matter?
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2017, 07:30:06 am »
Banning something because it could be abused is a favored tactic of statists.

"Guns might be misused...so we should ban them..."
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Re: Gorsuch Staunchly Opposes ‘Aid in Dying.’ Does It Matter?
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2017, 07:35:04 am »
Bugs me. If I want to cash out, that's between me and my family. No judge need stick his nose in.
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Offline Suppressed

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Re: Gorsuch Staunchly Opposes ‘Aid in Dying.’ Does It Matter?
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2017, 07:36:28 am »
Bugs me. If I want to cash out, that's between me and my family. No judge need stick his nose in.

BINGO.

But many think the state owns us and knows better than we do regarding what we want to do with our lives.
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“The most effectual means of being secure against pain is to retire within ourselves, and to suffice for our own happiness.” -- Thomas Jefferson

“He's so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent.” --Foghorn Leghorn

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Gorsuch Staunchly Opposes ‘Aid in Dying.’ Does It Matter?
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2017, 09:08:29 am »
BINGO.

But many think the state owns us and knows better than we do regarding what we want to do with our lives.
You will do what you want to do anyway. If you're dead, what are they going to do to you?
But when the state sticks it's nose in and starts finding a 'right' to kill yourself, that is the camel's nose under the tent. Then they will 'help'. then there will be an obligation to do so and save the Ministry of "healthcare" money and reduce the surplus population.

If you want to check out, that's between you and God--my understanding is that it's generally frowned upon.

But bring the government into it and they will start deciding who has 'enough quality of life to continue living' and who doesn't, and that's a slippery slope.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Suppressed

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Re: Gorsuch Staunchly Opposes ‘Aid in Dying.’ Does It Matter?
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2017, 09:28:14 am »

But bring the government into it and they will start deciding who has 'enough quality of life to continue living' and who doesn't, and that's a slippery slope.

I'm not the one bringing the government in.  Those who would send JBTs after someone for helping me when I'm paralyzed are bringing the government in.  Those who would require grandma to splatter her brains all over the wall rather than take a peaceful pill are bringing the government in.  Those who say it's okay to ban guns because people will get them anyway are the ones bringing government in.

Here's a radical concept: put patients' wishes first and get the government out of the way. If that's the framework, then there's no slippery slope to abuse.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2017, 09:33:29 am by Suppressed »
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“In the outside world, I'm a simple geologist. But in here .... I am Falcor, Defender of the Alliance” --Randy Marsh

“The most effectual means of being secure against pain is to retire within ourselves, and to suffice for our own happiness.” -- Thomas Jefferson

“He's so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent.” --Foghorn Leghorn

Offline Gefn

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Re: Gorsuch Staunchly Opposes ‘Aid in Dying.’ Does It Matter?
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2017, 11:03:14 am »
I'm bookmarking this for a comment for later. This is an important topic and I have to make sure what I want to say comes out correctly.
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Re: Gorsuch Staunchly Opposes ‘Aid in Dying.’ Does It Matter?
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2017, 02:06:32 pm »
Bugs me. If I want to cash out, that's between me and my family. No judge need stick his nose in.

QFT.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Gorsuch Staunchly Opposes ‘Aid in Dying.’ Does It Matter?
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2017, 02:23:28 pm »
I'm not the one bringing the government in.  Those who would send JBTs after someone for helping me when I'm paralyzed are bringing the government in.  Those who would require grandma to splatter her brains all over the wall rather than take a peaceful pill are bringing the government in.  Those who say it's okay to ban guns because people will get them anyway are the ones bringing government in.

Here's a radical concept: put patients' wishes first and get the government out of the way. If that's the framework, then there's no slippery slope to abuse.
Four words: Medical Power of Attorney.
And that can (and will) be used/abused both ways if you get the okay for this.
Does Grandma have any greedy relatives (doesn't everyone?)

How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Suppressed

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Re: Gorsuch Staunchly Opposes ‘Aid in Dying.’ Does It Matter?
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2017, 05:41:05 pm »
Four words: Medical Power of Attorney.
And that can (and will) be used/abused both ways if you get the okay for this.
Does Grandma have any greedy relatives (doesn't everyone?)

There are greedy people, and firearms can be abused by them, yes.  If you don't want to give medical power of attorney, don't.  But don't ban it for others.
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“The most effectual means of being secure against pain is to retire within ourselves, and to suffice for our own happiness.” -- Thomas Jefferson

“He's so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent.” --Foghorn Leghorn

Offline goodwithagun

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Re: Gorsuch Staunchly Opposes ‘Aid in Dying.’ Does It Matter?
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2017, 05:50:08 pm »
Banning something because it could be abused is a favored tactic of statists.

"Guns might be misused...so we should ban them..."

Invalid argument: 2A states our gun rights. What amendment states our right to die? If there were such an amendment your analogy would work, but there isn't. In fact, it's just the opposite. We all have the right to life.

Preventing statists from determining who's eligibil to live and who isn't has nothing to do with statists violating our 2nd.
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Offline goodwithagun

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Re: Gorsuch Staunchly Opposes ‘Aid in Dying.’ Does It Matter?
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2017, 05:52:20 pm »
Bugs me. If I want to cash out, that's between me and my family. No judge need stick his nose in.

By all means, cash out. Just don't expect anybody else, medical personnel or otherwise, to determine if you are worthy of living or not.
I stand with Roosgirl.

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Re: Gorsuch Staunchly Opposes ‘Aid in Dying.’ Does It Matter?
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2017, 05:55:33 pm »
Four words: Medical Power of Attorney.
And that can (and will) be used/abused both ways if you get the okay for this.
Does Grandma have any greedy relatives (doesn't everyone?)

Right to Bear Arms

Also four words that can and will be used/abused both ways.

Position of Public Trust

Hey, another four words which can be abused!

Leave my Kids Alone

What do you know - yet another four that can be abused in horrific ways.

Just Leave Me Alone

Said to the government, it's pretty much your life's touchstone. Telling me there is no potential for abuse there?


Absolutely every last little thing can be abused and will be abused by some people. That does not mean these things, these ideas, should be removed.

Does it?
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Re: Gorsuch Staunchly Opposes ‘Aid in Dying.’ Does It Matter?
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2017, 03:40:28 am »
Invalid argument: 2A states our gun rights. What amendment states our right to die?  If there were such an amendment your analogy would work, but there isn't. In fact, it's just the opposite. We all have the right to life.

Please remind me what amendment states the right to life, if that's the standard.  We have many rights not explicitly stated by the Bill of Rights.

In fact, I'd like you to please give me an example of a right hat includes compulsion.  Right to worship includes the freedom to not worship, not the government's right to use its mailed fist on us if we don't participate.  Right to peaceably assemble doesn't compel us to join rallies, unless you view us as North Korea.  Etc.  Right to life means we have the right not to live.

Quote
Preventing statists from determining who's eligibil to live and who isn't has nothing to do with statists violating our 2nd.

Red herring.  Judge Gorsuch wrote against patients deciding their own path, basically saying The State owns us.
+++++++++
“In the outside world, I'm a simple geologist. But in here .... I am Falcor, Defender of the Alliance” --Randy Marsh

“The most effectual means of being secure against pain is to retire within ourselves, and to suffice for our own happiness.” -- Thomas Jefferson

“He's so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent.” --Foghorn Leghorn

Offline Suppressed

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Re: Gorsuch Staunchly Opposes ‘Aid in Dying.’ Does It Matter?
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2017, 03:41:42 am »
I'm bookmarking this for a comment for later. This is an important topic and I have to make sure what I want to say comes out correctly.

Would you please ping me on your reply, @Freya?  To me, this is a very fundamental issue of whether we control our destinies, or whether the State owns us.
+++++++++
“In the outside world, I'm a simple geologist. But in here .... I am Falcor, Defender of the Alliance” --Randy Marsh

“The most effectual means of being secure against pain is to retire within ourselves, and to suffice for our own happiness.” -- Thomas Jefferson

“He's so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent.” --Foghorn Leghorn

Offline Mom MD

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Re: Gorsuch Staunchly Opposes ‘Aid in Dying.’ Does It Matter?
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2017, 04:01:23 am »
Bugs me. If I want to cash out, that's between me and my family. No judge need stick his nose in.

OK.  But don't expect or worse yet attempt to compel medical professionals to help you.
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Re: Gorsuch Staunchly Opposes ‘Aid in Dying.’ Does It Matter?
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2017, 04:11:53 am »
Bugs me. If I want to cash out, that's between me and my family. No judge need stick his nose in.

What if your spoilt son wants you to cash out, but you don't?  You're dead, so there's nobody to gainsay him when he brings up the "evidence" that you wanted to cash out.

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Re: Gorsuch Staunchly Opposes ‘Aid in Dying.’ Does It Matter?
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2017, 04:21:26 am »
What if your spoilt son wants you to cash out, but you don't?  You're dead, so there's nobody to gainsay him when he brings up the "evidence" that you wanted to cash out.

Don't have one. So that's moot.
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Re: Gorsuch Staunchly Opposes ‘Aid in Dying.’ Does It Matter?
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2017, 04:27:42 am »
Don't have one. So that's moot.

For you, but not for everyone else.  Laws are of general application, not per-individual.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Gorsuch Staunchly Opposes ‘Aid in Dying.’ Does It Matter?
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2017, 08:03:59 am »
Right to Bear Arms

Also four words that can and will be used/abused both ways.

Position of Public Trust

Hey, another four words which can be abused!

Leave my Kids Alone

What do you know - yet another four that can be abused in horrific ways.

Just Leave Me Alone

Said to the government, it's pretty much your life's touchstone. Telling me there is no potential for abuse there?


Absolutely every last little thing can be abused and will be abused by some people. That does not mean these things, these ideas, should be removed.

Does it?
A wonderful catch of red herring, there. In the first, exercising that right harms no one. It is the use of the firearm which might, and that is a different, and well-regulated issue.

In the second, the public is played for suckers regularly. If we  actually had positions where the public trust was all that was needed, those positions would not be subject to so many rules and regulations. It is an oxymoron.

The latter two imply that someone is, indeed, messing with someone or their children. There is a point where the assumed right to mess with someone or their children may kick in, but usually there are statures governing that point. Not to say those aren't abused--they are--anyone with a lick of sense and an understanding of the prevarications employees of official agencies are willing to employ, in at least some instances, to seize control of persons or their progeny is quite wary of the extraconstitutional powers granted to specific agencies for the purpose of "doing good", even though those ends are often destructive and employed in order to maintain relevance for the employee or agency.

If you want to end it all, I won't get between you and your bullet, even though I won't sanction such. What I seek to avoid is the situation where someone is medicated into a state of mind where they are vulnerable to the tender ministrations (and selfish ambitions) of those who would rather have them dead, for fun or profit.

It isn't easy to care for an ailing relative in their final days. It might be even harder for some to watch them approach their lifetime insurance payout maxima, see the estate dwindling like numbers spooling down on a counter as the bills add up, and realizing their earthly reward for caring for that person is disappearing fast or gone and the cost will come out of pocket.

Officially, it doesn't take much more before the 'Public cost' is talleyed up and someone becomes 'too expensive' to keep around.... Before the public is clamoring at the expense and before little kids dying of some cancer are paraded around as poster children for getting rid of Granny, because the budget won't handle both--a situation we've all been programmed for with the "lifeboat problem" of the "kidney machine problem" in school at some point.

Margie Sanger would be so proud. Maybe she gets cold cokes in Hell for her efforts.

Some day, your day will come. No one knows when or how, but the 'if' part is pretty well figured out. So it is for all of us.

You do realize that there are medications which have the common side effect of "Suicidal thoughts"? I was prescribed one (no longer on the market) for joint pain and in two days wanted to end it all. Now, I thought about that, and realized everything was going incredibly well in my life. It made no sense, until I realized it was the medication. I quit that, and in two days was back to normal. For someone who had not understood that they were dealing with a pharmacologically altered mental state, or for whom life simply sucked at the time, the outcome might have been quite different. Not to mention the legions of adolescents who are still developing coping skills who might decide 'it's too hard' and check out before they even have a chance to learn how to live.
And we haven't even really broached the topic of mandated termination, which will come, especially if health care costs are picked up by the public at large. That one time payment of one penny (per person) which would grant almost any level of care needed to get almost any person through will be touted as 'too much'.
Sorry, but I'm not for opening that door. I'm not for giving the Government another power it can abuse. If you want to end it, you'll find a way--I seriously doubt you will have to worry about being prosecuted if you are dead. I won't approve, sorry.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline DB

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Re: Gorsuch Staunchly Opposes ‘Aid in Dying.’ Does It Matter?
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2017, 09:34:53 am »
A wonderful catch of red herring, there. In the first, exercising that right harms no one. It is the use of the firearm which might, and that is a different, and well-regulated issue.

In the second, the public is played for suckers regularly. If we  actually had positions where the public trust was all that was needed, those positions would not be subject to so many rules and regulations. It is an oxymoron.

The latter two imply that someone is, indeed, messing with someone or their children. There is a point where the assumed right to mess with someone or their children may kick in, but usually there are statures governing that point. Not to say those aren't abused--they are--anyone with a lick of sense and an understanding of the prevarications employees of official agencies are willing to employ, in at least some instances, to seize control of persons or their progeny is quite wary of the extraconstitutional powers granted to specific agencies for the purpose of "doing good", even though those ends are often destructive and employed in order to maintain relevance for the employee or agency.

If you want to end it all, I won't get between you and your bullet, even though I won't sanction such. What I seek to avoid is the situation where someone is medicated into a state of mind where they are vulnerable to the tender ministrations (and selfish ambitions) of those who would rather have them dead, for fun or profit.

It isn't easy to care for an ailing relative in their final days. It might be even harder for some to watch them approach their lifetime insurance payout maxima, see the estate dwindling like numbers spooling down on a counter as the bills add up, and realizing their earthly reward for caring for that person is disappearing fast or gone and the cost will come out of pocket.

Officially, it doesn't take much more before the 'Public cost' is talleyed up and someone becomes 'too expensive' to keep around.... Before the public is clamoring at the expense and before little kids dying of some cancer are paraded around as poster children for getting rid of Granny, because the budget won't handle both--a situation we've all been programmed for with the "lifeboat problem" of the "kidney machine problem" in school at some point.

Margie Sanger would be so proud. Maybe she gets cold cokes in Hell for her efforts.

Some day, your day will come. No one knows when or how, but the 'if' part is pretty well figured out. So it is for all of us.

You do realize that there are medications which have the common side effect of "Suicidal thoughts"? I was prescribed one (no longer on the market) for joint pain and in two days wanted to end it all. Now, I thought about that, and realized everything was going incredibly well in my life. It made no sense, until I realized it was the medication. I quit that, and in two days was back to normal. For someone who had not understood that they were dealing with a pharmacologically altered mental state, or for whom life simply sucked at the time, the outcome might have been quite different. Not to mention the legions of adolescents who are still developing coping skills who might decide 'it's too hard' and check out before they even have a chance to learn how to live.
And we haven't even really broached the topic of mandated termination, which will come, especially if health care costs are picked up by the public at large. That one time payment of one penny (per person) which would grant almost any level of care needed to get almost any person through will be touted as 'too much'.
Sorry, but I'm not for opening that door. I'm not for giving the Government another power it can abuse. If you want to end it, you'll find a way--I seriously doubt you will have to worry about being prosecuted if you are dead. I won't approve, sorry.

I've had some bad experiences involving some of things you mention that I don't want to talk about on a public forum. There are also unintended consequences for the families of those loved ones. I'll just say I agree 100%.

Offline goodwithagun

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Re: Gorsuch Staunchly Opposes ‘Aid in Dying.’ Does It Matter?
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2017, 02:55:37 pm »
Please remind me what amendment states the right to life, if that's the standard.  We have many rights not explicitly stated by the Bill of Rights.

In fact, I'd like you to please give me an example of a right hat includes compulsion.  Right to worship includes the freedom to not worship, not the government's right to use its mailed fist on us if we don't participate.  Right to peaceably assemble doesn't compel us to join rallies, unless you view us as North Korea.  Etc.  Right to life means we have the right not to live.

Red herring.  Judge Gorsuch wrote against patients deciding their own path, basically saying The State owns us.

If I have to explain inherent right to life, then you're on the wrong site  **nononono*
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Re: Gorsuch Staunchly Opposes ‘Aid in Dying.’ Does It Matter?
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2017, 03:54:53 pm »
If I have to explain inherent right to life, then you're on the wrong site  **nononono*

You don't.  I'm surprised that I have to explain to you inherent rights -- and freedoms.
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“The most effectual means of being secure against pain is to retire within ourselves, and to suffice for our own happiness.” -- Thomas Jefferson

“He's so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent.” --Foghorn Leghorn