Author Topic: Trump could just ignore court’s order halting travel ban  (Read 3109 times)

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Offline endicom

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Trump could just ignore court’s order halting travel ban
« on: February 09, 2017, 01:21:17 am »
American Thinker
Selwyn Duke
Feb. 8, 2017

Does our current status quo make our Constitution a suicide pact?  Thomas Jefferson certainly thought it could be, warning that accepting judicial supremacy would make our founding document just that, a felo de se, as he put it in Latin.

Acceptance of judicial supremacy, by the way, is precisely why President Trump's temporary ban on immigration from seven Muslim-majority nations is on hold.  Imagine that.

Alexander Hamilton wrote in The Federalist, No. 78 that the judiciary is the "least dangerous" branch of government because it "has no influence over either the sword or the purse."  Yet it's trumping the man with the sword: the president.  Does it have to be this way?

No, Trump could simply ignore the court ruling suspending his ban.

Outrageous?!  Unconstitutional?!  Actually, it's wholly constitutional.

In his dissent from the 2015 Obergefell v. Hodges marriage ruling, the late Justice Antonin Scalia warned that with "each decision ... unabashedly based not on law," the Court moves "one step closer to being reminded of [its] impotence."  What did Scalia know about courts' power?

That it's basically an illusion.

More... http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2017/02/trump_could_just_ignore_courts_order_halting_travel_ban.html

Offline Norm Lenhart

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Re: Trump could just ignore court’s order halting travel ban
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2017, 01:32:02 am »
I've learned today that more people than I'd have expected right here were unaware of the court's 'impotence'. So it's a safe assumption that the vast majority of LIVs out there in non-political junkie-land are likewise shocked by the reality.

Maybe the new EdSec can reinstate basic civics into schools in place of ethnic studies or global warming indoctrination.

Offline endicom

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Re: Trump could just ignore court’s order halting travel ban
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2017, 01:52:15 am »
I've learned today that more people than I'd have expected right here were unaware of the court's 'impotence'. So it's a safe assumption that the vast majority of LIVs out there in non-political junkie-land are likewise shocked by the reality.

Maybe the new EdSec can reinstate basic civics into schools in place of ethnic studies or global warming indoctrination.


I thought this article a good summation of the real status of the courts. We so often read, "The courts have decreed...," that it becomes easy to accept a court decreeing anything.

Offline Norm Lenhart

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Re: Trump could just ignore court’s order halting travel ban
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2017, 01:54:36 am »

I thought this article a good summation of the real status of the courts. We so often read, "The courts have decreed...," that it becomes easy to accept a court decreeing anything.

It was indeed a good summation. I suppose overall it's another of those things like Reagan said. People know so many things that arent so.

Online Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: Trump could just ignore court’s order halting travel ban
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2017, 02:04:54 am »
President pence would be nice...  :pondering:

Offline NavyCanDo

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Re: Trump could just ignore court’s order halting travel ban
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2017, 02:13:04 am »
President pence would be nice...  :pondering:

Contempt of court could get us just that.
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Offline Norm Lenhart

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Re: Trump could just ignore court’s order halting travel ban
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2017, 02:31:56 am »
Contempt of court could get us just that.

As the article says...enforced by whom?

Online Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: Trump could just ignore court’s order halting travel ban
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2017, 02:34:35 am »
As the article says...enforced by whom?


Congress.

Offline massadvj

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Re: Trump could just ignore court’s order halting travel ban
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2017, 02:40:00 am »
I think even a GOP congress would feel compelled to impeach a president who was held to be in contempt of the supreme court, or any order that was vetted through the supreme court..

Offline Norm Lenhart

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Re: Trump could just ignore court’s order halting travel ban
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2017, 02:43:09 am »

Congress.

Thats why civics is so important.

Congress has exactly ZERO enforcement ability. Enforcement lies solely with the executive. You would wait an eternity for a constitutional means enabling congress to enforce a contempt charge against the executive. They could cajol Sessions, but he could say 'no'.

If they want to impeach, they then face the electorate that polls show support Trump on this and really don't like them much. If they do impeach, and reinstate Obama immigration openly post trump (because Pence isn't likely to reverse) then you have the enforcement issue again. And round and round we go.

However if each branch governs constitutionally as Trump has thus far, then each branch stays in it's constitutional box. Lest we forget, it was congress that abandoned their duty in controlling the court's behaviors through constitutional means and the courts for governing like kings, legislating from the bench.

Trump merely exerxized his constitutional authority as President and CIC.

Online Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: Trump could just ignore court’s order halting travel ban
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2017, 02:49:19 am »
Contempt charges wouldn't just apply to the chief executive but all federal officers who refused the federal order. Some might hang tight but 90% would fold some way.


Those that didn't would be facing pound me in the ass prison with some of the same people they put there.



Sounds fun.


Just ask nixons bunch
 

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Re: Trump could just ignore court’s order halting travel ban
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2017, 02:58:46 am »
The courts are necessarily the final word on what the law is, and is not.  No law enacted by Congress is self-enforcing, and the executive's power to enforce the law is subject to review by the judiciary.  Thus, while Congress initially enacts the law, and the executive enforces it, the judiciary applies that law to discrete individuals and, in the end, decides what the law really means.  That does not mean that a court can decide that blue is red and red blue - unless, of course, the legislation in question sets those definitions - but the English language is a necessarily imprecise tool and therefore must be interpreted in order to be applied, and it is the job of the judiciary to do that interpretation.

Even the scope of that very limited number of issues labelled political questions - that are left to the legislative or executive powers - is determined by the judiciary.

And this is the only way the system can work.  If the judiciary does not have the final say on what the law is, then it is no longer a coordinate power and will necessarily become subordinate to the executive.

Offline Norm Lenhart

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Re: Trump could just ignore court’s order halting travel ban
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2017, 03:01:36 am »
The courts are necessarily the final word on what the law is, and is not.  No law enacted by Congress is self-enforcing, and the executive's power to enforce the law is subject to review by the judiciary.  Thus, while Congress initially enacts the law, and the executive enforces it, the judiciary applies that law to discrete individuals and, in the end, decides what the law really means.  That does not mean that a court can decide that blue is red and red blue - unless, of course, the legislation in question sets those definitions - but the English language is a necessarily imprecise tool and therefore must be interpreted in order to be applied, and it is the job of the judiciary to do that interpretation.

Even the scope of that very limited number of issues labelled political questions - that are left to the legislative or executive powers - is determined by the judiciary.

And this is the only way the system can work.  If the judiciary does not have the final say on what the law is, then it is no longer a coordinate power and will necessarily become subordinate to the executive.

And so who watches the Watchers?

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Trump could just ignore court’s order halting travel ban
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2017, 03:19:11 am »
Contempt of court could get us just that.
Contempt of court?

What do you think would happen anyway?
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Trump could just ignore court’s order halting travel ban
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2017, 03:22:14 am »
Contempt charges wouldn't just apply to the chief executive but all federal officers who refused the federal order. Some might hang tight but 90% would fold some way.


Those that didn't would be facing pound me in the ass prison with some of the same people they put there.



Sounds fun.


Just ask nixons bunch
Contempt of Court is as forceful as the law so blatantly ignored as Sanctuary Cities.

Where do you discriminate a difference between them?

Are you suggesting that the laws passed by Congress are less important than some decree by a Court?

If you are, then wow.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 03:23:07 am by IsailedawayfromFR »
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Online Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: Trump could just ignore court’s order halting travel ban
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2017, 03:28:17 am »
Contempt of Court is as forceful as the law so blatantly ignored as Sanctuary Cities.

Where do you discriminate a difference between them?

Are you suggesting that the laws passed by Congress are less important than some decree by a Court?

If you are, then wow.


If a municipal officer was found in contempt of federal court you think he wouldn't go to prison?


Wow indeed.

Online Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: Trump could just ignore court’s order halting travel ban
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2017, 03:30:04 am »
Contempt of court?

What do you think would happen anyway?


Impeachment or resignation. Happened twice in the last 50 years.

Offline txradioguy

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Re: Trump could just ignore court’s order halting travel ban
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2017, 03:37:47 am »
So when did we decide to do away with "co-equal" branches of government?
The libs/dems of today are the Quislings of former years. The cowards who would vote a fraud into office in exchange for handouts from the devil.

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Offline Bigun

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Re: Trump could just ignore court’s order halting travel ban
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2017, 03:38:03 am »
I think even a GOP congress would feel compelled to impeach a president who was held to be in contempt of the supreme court, or any order that was vetted through the supreme court..

That depends on what the order or finding was! As I said earlier, The Executive and the Congress have allowed the judiciary to rule us for so long that most all have become conditioned to it but that does NOT make it right!

Our founders never intended that judges be kings! In fact, that is EXACTLY why they were granted no powers of enforcement in the Constitution!

« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 03:43:12 am by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

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Re: Trump could just ignore court’s order halting travel ban
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2017, 03:46:35 am »
That depends on what the order or finding was! As I said earlier, The Executive and the Congress have allowed the judiciary to rule us for so long that most all have become conditioned to it but that does NOT make it right!

Our founders never intended that judges be kings! In fact, that is EXACTLY why they were granted no powers of enforcement in the Constitution!


Congress wouldn't have much problem impeaching an unpopular fool like trump if he was dumb enough to earn a contempt charge. But that's just my opinion.

Offline Bigun

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Re: Trump could just ignore court’s order halting travel ban
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2017, 03:49:35 am »

Congress wouldn't have much problem impeaching an unpopular fool like trump if he was dumb enough to earn a contempt charge. But that's just my opinion.

We agree! That is just your opinion!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline bilo

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Re: Trump could just ignore court’s order halting travel ban
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2017, 04:05:01 am »
Isn't the easier way to fix this by just ending lifetime appointments to the courts?

I believe it was Pres. Jackson who defied a court ruling saying, "let them enforce it". Obama got away with this because no one in the Rat or Pub parties would dare to impeach a Black POTUS. Trump doesn't have that luxury. However he might be able to get the ninth circus reduced to a smaller area and create a new circuit court that is more conservative, if he can get Congress to show some backbone.
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Offline montanajoe

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Re: Trump could just ignore court’s order halting travel ban
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2017, 04:05:54 am »
American Thinker
Selwyn Duke
Feb. 8, 2017

Does our current status quo make our Constitution a suicide pact?  Thomas Jefferson certainly thought it could be, warning that accepting judicial supremacy would make our founding document just that, a felo de se, as he put it in Latin.

Acceptance of judicial supremacy, by the way, is precisely why President Trump's temporary ban on immigration from seven Muslim-majority nations is on hold.  Imagine that.

Alexander Hamilton wrote in The Federalist, No. 78 that the judiciary is the "least dangerous" branch of government because it "has no influence over either the sword or the purse."  Yet it's trumping the man with the sword: the president.  Does it have to be this way?

No, Trump could simply ignore the court ruling suspending his ban.

Outrageous?!  Unconstitutional?!  Actually, it's wholly constitutional.

In his dissent from the 2015 Obergefell v. Hodges marriage ruling, the late Justice Antonin Scalia warned that with "each decision ... unabashedly based not on law," the Court moves "one step closer to being reminded of [its] impotence."  What did Scalia know about courts' power?

That it's basically an illusion.

More... http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2017/02/trump_could_just_ignore_courts_order_halting_travel_ban.html

Trump supporters would do well to cool their jets.

Trump ignores the Courts and he will be impeached simple as that... :thud:

Offline Bigun

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Re: Trump could just ignore court’s order halting travel ban
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2017, 04:07:03 am »
Isn't the easier way to fix this by just ending lifetime appointments to the courts?

I believe it was Pres. Jackson who defied a court ruling saying, "let them enforce it". Obama got away with this because no one in the Rat or Pub parties would dare to impeach a Black POTUS. Trump doesn't have that luxury. However he might be able to get the ninth circus reduced to a smaller area and create a new circuit court that is more conservative, if he can get Congress to show some backbone.

Hell man! Our feckless Congress wouldn't even impeach Eric "The Red" Holder who they themselves held in contempt!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Bigun

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Re: Trump could just ignore court’s order halting travel ban
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2017, 04:08:11 am »
Trump supporters would do well to cool their jets.

Trump ignores the Courts and he will be impeached simple as that... :thud:

Your opinion is noted!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien