LYING IS BAD: 5 Reasons You Shouldn't Defend Trump's Lies Just Because You Like The Outcome

[roamer_1]

Gross misinterpretation of that Scripture.

Jesus never told us to approve of sin.  And that is exactly what is being done by supporting Trump's lies and excusing them by saying every politician lies.

If you are trying to go to the Bible to defend unrepentant sin and pathological lying, you're going to fail.

Every time.

Exactly true.

[Smokin Joe]

If you think Trump is going to result with roasting folks in ovens, why don't you go protest in the street with signs claiming Trump is Hitler along with the rest of them?

Hitler started out as the 'boy wonder', revitalizing the German economy, rebuilding, including the military, building the Autobahn, etc. If he had stopped with that, he would be remembered as a great leader, despite the actions he took to gain power. Everything (well most everything) was coming up roses for Germany. In 1935, a different result from 1945.
While I heartily approve of a great deal of what Trump is doing now, I will recall his previous duplicity and watch for signs that what he does won't be so good.
Everyone should, and with any leader.

[INVAR]

Hitler started out as the 'boy wonder', revitalizing the German economy, rebuilding, including the military, building the Autobahn, etc. If he had stopped with that, he would be remembered as a great leader, despite the actions he took to gain power. Everything (well most everything) was coming up roses for Germany. In 1935, a different result from 1945.
While I heartily approve of a great deal of what Trump is doing now, I will recall his previous duplicity and watch for signs that what he does won't be so good.
Everyone should, and with any leader.

Exactly correct.

I have an in-law who grew up in Hitler's Youth and one of the things he remembers is exactly what you describe in terms of how wonderful Germany was for Germans shortly after he assumed power.  For five or six years he said that he worked a miracle for the country - which is why he said his own mother loved and saluted him until the day she died in 2007.

[Smokin Joe]

We are discussing the mindset, the meme, the zeitgeist and thinking whereby justifying the means to the end simply because someone we support is put into office - ends up in horror and catastrophe as history teaches.

I'm sorry if you cannot comprehend that the discussion is not always about Trump in particular, but the attitude that he and society are demonstrating in their promotion of ideas and actions that destroy the character of a nation.

We are discussing where such mindsets lead.  Whether or not Trump spearheads it, leads us into it or returns us back to righteousness, has yet to be seen.  But the wholesale acceptance and justification for the ends justifies the means, leads societies to their end.

I'm quite happy with a few of the initiatives and things Trump has initiated this past week.  I do not know if that will continue - or if this is just to get his list of promises out of the way so he can settle into ruling as he sees fit.

History teaches that among the constituencies that support the rise of despots, things improve dramatically for that constituency for the short term - before the consequences of a ruler's actions and appetites punishes the whole nation.

Unless we are wary of that fact and vigilant to prevent it - we run the risk of ending up just the same.

Precisely!

[Wingnut]

Hitler started out as the 'boy wonder', revitalizing the German economy, rebuilding, including the military, building the Autobahn, etc. If he had stopped with that, he would be remembered as a great leader, despite the actions he took to gain power. Everything (well most everything) was coming up roses for Germany. In 1935, a different result from 1945.
While I heartily approve of a great deal of what Trump is doing now, I will recall his previous duplicity and watch for signs that what he does won't be so good.
Everyone should, and with any leader.

Me thinks (Besides you drinking way too much caffeine in the morning) You need to stop reading the Alternative realities forum.  Justsay'n

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Me thinks (Besides you drinking way too much canine in the morning) You need to stop reading the Alternative realities forum.  Justsay'n

Yeah. He was doing bad things from almost the beginning. He would have been remembered as an insane bigot at the very least.

[Smokin Joe]

Because you would be in jail..BOOM

SRS I have never seen a conservative site that allows so called conservatives continually bash our new president like this one does.

Constructive criticism is fine, saying you don't agree with some of his decisions is 100% fine. I have criticized some of his moves so far and will continue to do so.

But the outright bashing you and music lady and a few others do is way beyond reasonable. I have seen less bashing on DU.

@INVAR

Let me put it this way. He lied. Is lying good?

Now, I'm glad he didn't up the ethanol mandate, and maybe he won't use the EPA to the "fullest extent of the law" to enforce it, but the jury is still out on what he will do.

However for the farmers and ethanol industry people in Iowa he told that, it was a lie.

He didn't say "After careful consideration/additional information I have changed my mind", but (thankfully) he didn't follow through on that promise.

On the one hand I'm thrilled. On the other, yep. He lied.
But you would have people jailed for pointing that simple fact out? Nice.

[Smokin Joe]

Me thinks (Besides you drinking way too much caffeine in the morning) You need to stop reading the Alternative realities forum.  Justsay'n

Okay, kindly tell me what I said you disagree with.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Smokin Joe basically said the same thing as Marge Schott didn't he?

[IsailedawayfromFR]

While I heartily approve of a great deal of what Trump is doing now, I will recall his previous duplicity and watch for signs that what he does won't be so good.
Everyone should, and with any leader.

Agreed, support his actions when they are sound and stay alert.

It is why the Founders did not trust any sole person and created our Representative Republic, where there are checks and balances.

At this point in time, I have more reservations on our Congress. While the Dems were in power, we got Obamacare.  With the GOP in power, we got uncontrolled spending without accountability with continuing resolutions.  And no rebuke of a President that overstepped his bounds.

Any single man can be let his power go to his head.  But when our Congress insulates itself from its constituents, in my mind it is even more sinister for this country's future.

[Wingnut]

Okay, kindly tell me what I said you disagree with.

Everything thing you said after "Hitler"

[IsailedawayfromFR]

He didn't say "After careful consideration/additional information I have changed my mind", but (thankfully) he didn't follow through on that promise.

Why does that have to be said?  Were not his actions convincing enough to proclaim to the world that he changed his mind, and actually much, much more convincing than making a statement?

[Cripplecreek]

Exactly correct.

I have an in-law who grew up in Hitler's Youth and one of the things he remembers is exactly what you describe in terms of how wonderful Germany was for Germans shortly after he assumed power.  For five or six years he said that he worked a miracle for the country - which is why he said his own mother loved and saluted him until the day she died in 2007.

One of the best documentaries on the rise and fall of the nazis. Its good because its from the German perspective and as you say in the beginning everything was rainbows and unicorns but even as early as the Reichstag fire the people were beginning to figure out that they were trapped. Lots of people didn't buy the official story but didn't want to talk about it. They had full bellies and roofs over their heads and attracting the wrong kind of attention could be bad news.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KG74s4DnRw

[sneakypete]

The whole point in all this is not to denigrate Reagan.  It is to demonstrate that even a wildly popular conservative we all admire had a past that was not 100% always conservative.  He changed for the better.

@IsailedawayfromFR

Winston Churchill is reported to have said that "Anyone who wasn't a liberal when they were young has no heart,and anyone who isn't a conservative when they become adults has no mind." I am paraphrasing,but that is the gist of it and I see nothing in it that I don't understand and agree with. There are some absolutes in life,but an adult would have to be pretty one-dimensional to have the same viewpoints as an adult they had as a teen. Humans are supposed to learn as they mature.

The people bashing Trump do not believe anyone can change as they keep dredging up his past and not seeing any good he is doing.  People can indeed change for the better.

I honestly don't think they care. They have picked a team to play on,and by GAWD they are never going to admit they may have been mistaken. They NEED for Trump to fail so they can feel good about themselves as they wet their Depends and jump up and down in joy while screaming,"See? I was right! I TOLD YOU SO!"

They don't really give a damn about the country. What they care about is being "right".

[sneakypete]

Okay Pete, PUT DOWN THE BOURBON AND STEP AWAY FROM THE BOTTLE.

You are confusing me with someone else apparently.

First of all,I quit drinking in the early 80's.

Secondly,since two different mods have vouched for you down-thread,it seems obvious I DID have you confused with someone else,and I apologize.

[sneakypete]

Confirmed.

I would, however, rather like it if you would self edit your first and last sentence, OK?

@Mod2

Thank you for helping clear that up,and "No,I can't modify the first and last sentence that I posted in error. If I did,people who "tuned in late" would be scratching their heads and wondering "WTH?"

Besides,someone IS playing that dirty little underhanded game with me. I  have had at least 3 time outs in the last month of so for "Being anti-Semitic",and I'm not. SOME people seem to confuse being Pro-American with being Anti-Semitic,and THOSE people are the bigots,as well as being traitors to America. They love to play the Anti-Semite! card any time anyone calls them out on it.

[sneakypete]

pete....In all the time INVAR has been here he has never once filed a post report..I think you have him confused with someone else...

Thanks for correcting me. I have already apologized to him.

I don't believe you are an anti-semite but it's getting pretty hard lately convincing others of that.

Thanks. That pretty much verifies there are people working in the background to try to shut down any discussions about Israel they don't want to hear.

If I were a anti-Semite,I would say so. No one has ever accused me of being shy about saying what I think.

[jpsb]

I have no idea why you ever ping me, RiV.  You are the first and only one of two people on this forum whose behavior was so bad that it forced me to place you on permanent "IGNORE."

@musiclady

Am I number two?

[sneakypete]

Nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not about killing one guy. If they wanted to kill the Emperor, that would have been easy enough. The targets were picked because those cities had little bomb damage to them, unlike Tokyo which had largely been burned (with even greater loss of life) in fire bombing raids.
Incendiary bombing raids had killed multiples of the people killed by either atom bomb, but the bomb was as much a psychological weapon as a physical one.
Those bombs (and the dead and destruction from them) were about breaking the will of an entire people to fight on the beaches and the hills against an American invasion. As odd as it sounds those who died were the price to prevent millions more deaths, American and Japanese. No other weapon had had that effect on the nation, leaving them the only means available to end the war quickly.

Yup. The original "Shock and awe!"

Tokyo wasn't picked for strategic reasons. The Japanese government could hardly be expected to surrender if they were dust mites blowing around in the wind. I semi-remember reading a long time ago that Nagasaki and Hiroshima were chosen for a number of reasons,and one of the prime ones being that bombing them would make it obvious to the Japanese leadership that resistance was futile,while keeping them alive to surrender and in some cases,help build a new government.

You are also spot-on about the number of both Japanese and Allied lives saved by not having to invade the home  islands. By that time the Japanese government were arming old people and children and expecting them to die for the emperor. After the second bomb dropped the Emperor figured out that there was no protecting him and his family if he didn't surrender.

BTW,it just now occurred to me how well some of the events in 1945 can serve to highlight some of the events happening today.

Consider Douglas McArthur,for example. People who think Trump is a walking gas bag need to look at McArthur. He makes Trump seem lacking in self-confidence and shy by comparison. Yet he ended up being such a good administrator for Japan that they practically worshiped him there a few years after the war.  By judging his ego and past actions it would be natural to think he would have set himself up as a dictatorial king,but damned if he didn't end up putting the job ahead of self,and he worked hard to establish a new system that was fair to everyone.

If McArthur could put "self" in the background in consideration of the "greater good",why can't a comparatively modest fellow like Trump?

[jpsb]

@jpsb, just for sheer curiosity's sake, I went over to redstate.com and did a scan of the front page.  I counted five complimentary articles about Trump, four critical, and one neutral (it was a clip of Ivana's toddler learning to walk in the White House).

I don't understand the idea that any of these sources are "trying to be relevant" again.  They've always been relevant and continue to be so, unless you think that the media should be biased toward Trump and do nothing but praise him.  Is that what you'd like? 

Failure to be be 100% pro-Trump has absolutely nothing to do with relevancy.  The claim is born from pure emotion, not fact.

Speaking of emotion, it's interesting to me that the only people you want to hear talk about your president are his fans.  Why?  Don't you understand that it's not your job to be a fan club supporter of a politician?  He works for you.  You owe him nothing.

Trump supporters cheer the concept of bringing union workers and Democrats and homosexuals and everyone else into the big tent.  Everyone except those who didn't vote for Trump.  That's the unforgivable sin, because you're too personally wrapped up in some guy in the Oval Office.

Ted Cruz apparently forgave Trump for slandering his wife, but you won't forgive, so to speak, those who didn't support your particular candidate for president.  Doesn't it seem to you that maybe your perspective is a little off?

Bookmarked for a comment later. @CatherineofAragon I will get back to you. Of all the NeverTrumpers you are my worst nightmare, most NeverTrumpers are insane, you however are quite reasonable, damn it.

[roamer_1]

Am I number two?

Ummm... 

[Smokin Joe]

Smokin Joe basically said the same thing as Marge Schott didn't he?

I didn't claim to have any "Million dollar N******".

[jpsb]

As he should have been. He was nothing more than a discount store version of Bubba Clinton. Babs Bush even calls Bubba "The son I never had." If Boy Jorge or  that bastard Poppy are conservatives,so are their pals and occasional business partners,the Clintons.

Don't let the truth disturb your regularly-scheduled programming,though.

Bump! I wish we had a LIKE button.

[INVAR]

First of all,I quit drinking in the early 80's.

Secondly,since two different mods have vouched for you down-thread,it seems obvious I DID have you confused with someone else,and I apologize.

I think we should blame the bourbon.

Everyone will understand that and it's a terrific scapegoat for any errors committed while indulging.

[Smokin Joe]

Yup. The original "Shock and awe!"

Tokyo wasn't picked for strategic reasons. The Japanese government could hardly be expected to surrender if they were dust mites blowing around in the wind. I semi-remember reading a long time ago that Nagasaki and Hiroshima were chosen for a number of reasons,and one of the prime ones being that bombing them would make it obvious to the Japanese leadership that resistance was futile,while keeping them alive to surrender and in some cases,help build a new government.

You are also spot-on about the number of both Japanese and Allied lives saved by not having to invade the home  islands. By that time the Japanese government were arming old people and children and expecting them to die for the emperor. After the second bomb dropped the Emperor figured out that there was no protecting him and his family if he didn't surrender.

BTW,it just now occurred to me how well some of the events in 1945 can serve to highlight some of the events happening today.

Consider Douglas McArthur,for example. People who think Trump is a walking gas bag need to look at McArthur. He makes Trump seem lacking in self-confidence and shy by comparison. Yet he ended up being such a good administrator for Japan that they practically worshiped him there a few years after the war.  By judging his ego and past actions it would be natural to think he would have set himself up as a dictatorial king,but damned if he didn't end up putting the job ahead of self,and he worked hard to establish a new system that was fair to everyone.

If McArthur could put "self" in the background in consideration of the "greater good",why can't a comparatively modest fellow like Trump?

MacArthur did well for quite a while, and very well by the Japanese People.

But Gen Douglas MacArthur also lost sight of who was boss later, and he and President Truman got in a wrangle over who was CIC during the Korean War--which got MacArthur sacked.