Gov. John Kasich vetoes Heartbeat Bill, signs 20-week abortion ban

[TomSea]

One can not help but make the observation that marriage seems in part rooted in having children,

So often, we find those who defend totally infertile same-sex marriages, then in turn, defend abortion rights.

[thackney]

That's not what I said.   Sure, a fetus can have rights vis a vis a third party tortfeasor (although I'd argue that such rights are derivative of the mother's).    But a fetus, at least prior to viability as per Roe,  has no Constitutional rights vis a vis the mother.   Which makes sense - the fetus is wholly dependent on the mother, it is part of her body and cannot survive, yet, on its own.

Underdeveloped premature birth infants of the same gestational age survive without the mother.  It requires hospital care.  But many of us, at some point in our lives, require life support for a time in a hospital; it does not negate our right to not be murdered.

[txradioguy]

Some states, given to their own devices would totally outlaw it.

And that would be totally within their rights to do so.

It should be a mandate sent down from on high in D.C.

[thackney]

That's not what I said.   Sure, a fetus can have rights vis a vis a third party tortfeasor (although I'd argue that such rights are derivative of the mother's).    But a fetus, at least prior to viability as per Roe,  has no Constitutional rights vis a vis the mother.   Which makes sense - the fetus is wholly dependent on the mother, it is part of her body and cannot survive, yet, on its own.

It appears the law does not agree that the pre-born infant does not have rights separate from the mother.  If it was legally only part of the mother's body, how do laws that limit the behavior of pregnant women exist (differing from those not pregnant).

https://thinkprogress.org/woman-who-is-just-12-weeks-pregnant-charged-with-child-endangerment-fd5cef8790e1#.7e5v2smcn

http://www.mcall.com/news/local/mc-pa-prosecuting-pregnant-mothers-drug-abuse-20150124-story.html

[libertybele]

I think abortion is, in most circumstances, morally wrong.  But I'm encouraged by statistics I saw just the other day that show the abortion rate is significantly down.  I think that's the better way to proceed -  persuasion and support for mothers to do the right thing, and more effective contraception.   I think abortion bans are blunt instruments, with unanticipated consequences, and I prefer the route of persuasion rather than compulsion.  '

The current law (no abortions, with very limited exceptions, after viability) represents a compromise.   I've heard that viability is at approximately 26 weeks, but perhaps its a bit sooner in some cases.  Taking that down to 20 weeks may be Constitutional, but it too just represents a political compromise.  Convenience abortions will remain legal,  and it is mothers in more difficult situations that will be forced by the state to give birth.   

Viability at 26 weeks?  The norm in the past has been 24 weeks as the accepted cutoff.   Research is now showing that viability is considered now at just 22 weeks!  The new abortion bill is cutting off abortions just 2 weeks prior to that.  What about those miscalculations?  I understand nature can take its toll and things go wrong and the mother may be faced with a medically necessary abortion, beyond 20 weeks, but usually rare.

I also understand that life throws us curves.  In my very humblest of opinions 5 months is ample time for a mother to decide if she wants the child; a father taking off leaving her without help and all alone to raise a child is a horrific blow to the situation, however there are government agencies to help financially. Adoption is another alternative.

I still am for the heartbeat bill; around 8 weeks the fetus' heart begins to beat with a steady rhythm, major organs are beginning to form, arms and legs are growing longer and fingers and toes are beginning to form. For confirmed higher risk pregnancies that may be extended to 15 weeks in order to more safely do an amniocentesis or other tests.

[Idaho_Cowboy]

What a total waste of time and money.  Abortion is legal here, kids, for good reason.

And if you don't want it used as Birth Control, which it has been forever, start passing out the condoms and pills like candy.  You can't have it both ways.

Or we could expect people to be responsible adults. 

[libertybele]

Pray tell, what is this good reason?

Exactly ... I am asking the same question.

[Idaho_Cowboy]

There are many reasons actually, including deformity, death, imminent death after birth, genetic disorders, too many fetuses for all too survive, and a host of issues wherein the fetus is killing the woman or she, because of health reasons, age, capacity, etc. should not carry to term.  Induced abortion is, in the end and it always has been, a medical procedure.  And it's a very safe one.

Unless of course you area baby in which case it has an almost 100% death rate.

[GrouchoTex]

Isn't it funny but the abortion people are the same ones that probably sign up to give to the ASPC to help abandoned animals.  They wouldn't hurt a fly or step on a spider.  Or they want to dictate to others how a person should parent their children.  They are know it all people who fit in with the Margaret Sanger idea that only some people should procreate.  No pound puppies! (or low income parasites).

A woman knows right away if she is pregnant.  There should be no reason for any abortions at least not after heartbeat.  They have the day after pill so that negates the in the case of rape argument.  If you don't want to get pregnant don't have unprotected sex.  Its easy.  It is time to stop the killing of human beings.  Disgusting practice that we have allowed.  Lets value human life as much as we value the life of animals.  Should be valued more.  But there are the overpopulation people.

It always occurs to me that those that are in favor of abortion could not hold that opinion if there own parents were of the same mindset.

[Gefn]

Hubby and I were told for years we could not have children...after nine years of marriage we adopted a two week old baby boy.....There are millions of couples like us who would love to be able to adopt...choose life instead of abortion...

btw...almost 3 years latter we had another baby boy...so doctors can be wrong..and God does answers prayers.

On another thread (a car one) I made a comment about being adopted too, this morning :)
@chae @mystery-ak

[geronl]

We all know where the abortion right is grounded - in a woman's natural right to privacy and self-determination.   As a Constitutional matter,  the fetus is part of the mother, and subject to her dominion and control..

so is my faith and the work I do with my hands, but you would have me FORCED me to support things I find abhorrent

I'm not too surprised you have good things to say about baby murder.

[geronl]

Or we could expect people to be responsible adults. 

In a sane world, in todays childish world it makes you Hitler. lol

[bilo]

Simplistically, that's borne out by the facts -  most abortions take place early,  certainly those abortions that are derided as "convenience" abortions.  You find out you're pregnant, you realize you're at the wrong time in your life to have a child, and you quickly get an abortion.   

But let's drill down a bit.   The abortions that would be barred by a heartbeat bill or a pain-threshold bill (e.g., the 20 weeks bill signed by Gov. Kasich)  are the problematic ones,  the ones prompted by events such as abandonment by the father or a break-up in the relationship,  or by the discovery of fetal abnormalities.    We need to recognize that babies who are born "unwanted" will need greater support by the community,  because the normal role of the nurturing parent will be compromised, or impossible to fulfill.   Abortion is a terrible thing, but the circumstances that prompt later-term abortions are tragedies in themselves.   

I recognize that none of the circumstances I've noted above may qualify as valid "reasons" for abortion in your view, and I respect that.  But we shouldn't be blind to the cost of compelling women to give birth under circumstances where the last thing they want to do is raise a child.   Yes, the child will live, but it will "take a village" to provide that child with the kind of life that most of us took for granted growing up.   God bless those with the means and the courage to adopt such kids.       

You couldn't be more wrong.

Adoption answers you're "problem" with a woman being compelled to raise a child. No one is being compelled! The reason so many foreign children are adopted in the USA is because couples can't find babies to adopt here.

What seems to get lost in the discussion of abortion is how women's behavior has changed because of the sexual revolution which abortion is a part of. The number of bastards in this country was dramatically lower before abortion was so wide spread. One of the principal reasons for this was women would have to live with the responsibility of her actions, at least until the baby was born. As a result women were not as willing to enter into intimate relationships with just anyone.

Another consequence of abortion being so wide spread is illegal immigration. Our borders are being over run by people who are drawn by the magnet of jobs. We have lost 40-50 million citizens since Roe v. Wade, but business hasn't lost the need to fill entry level high labor positions. We don't like how the character of the country is changing, but we are the ones causing a lot of it to happen.

I have avoided discussing the religious part of the topic because reading prior post from you I know you don't think much of us who value social issues over economic issues. I have a good friend who is not a believer yet but is a highly respected scientist. When we discuss abortion we always end up at the same critical question. At what point does that clump of cells become human and once it has become human isn't it our obligation to protect it?

[Jazzhead]

I'm not too surprised you have good things to say about baby murder.

Can the slander, my friend.  I do not defend abortion.   But I want abortion reduced by persuasion, not compulsion.  Persuasion works.   Support for adoption works.  Support for contraception works.  Abortion rates ARE coming down, all while preserving the woman's liberty.   

Liberty is what conservatism's all about.   Don't look to the state to impose your moral values - do the hard and necessary work of persuading others to do the right thing.   

[Smokin Joe]

The handle "Hating Orange" makes me believe that poster is confused. While many of us are #nevertrump, and many others reluctantly voted for him, it wasn't because we are Liberals, but because we found Trump to not be Conservative enough.

If this person has bought into the spew that everyone who didn't support Trump were Liberals, no wonder they showed up in the wrong place.

BTW, I don't 'hate' Trump, I remain suspicious of his character, and find his past to indicate that is going to be a disappointment in the future. I am willing, given the situation, to give him his chance to prove me wrong.

[Smokin Joe]

Can the slander, my friend.  I do not defend abortion.   But I want abortion reduced by persuasion, not compulsion.  Persuasion works.   Support for adoption works.  Support for contraception works.  Abortion rates ARE coming down, all while preserving the woman's liberty.   

Liberty is what conservatism's all about.   Don't look to the state to impose your moral values - do the hard and necessary work of persuading others to do the right thing.   

Liberty is about securing the Rights of the least and most defenseless among us against the impositions of the more powerful and the mob.
Not about shredding babies in their mother's womb.

[libertybele]

The handle "Hating Orange" makes me believe that poster is confused. While many of us are #nevertrump, and many others reluctantly voted for him, it wasn't because we are Liberals, but because we found Trump to not be Conservative enough.

If this person has bought into the spew that everyone who didn't support Trump were Liberals, no wonder they showed up in the wrong place.

BTW, I don't 'hate' Trump, I remain suspicious of his character, and find his past to indicate that is going to be a disappointment in the future. I am willing, given the situation, to give him his chance to prove me wrong.

 

[Silver Pines]

Murder is for people.  Parasites, I know that's a but too harsh but the reality is the same, aren't persons.  If you want less abortion, produce better birth control.  I wouldn't mind if there was never another induced abortion but since I deal in reality that is not an option.

@HatingOrange, you need to understand something.  See, I know you think you're being terribly shocking and controversial.  I know you believe that you're just busting in here and shaking up the place! but the truth is that you're just boring.  I've seen your schtick done better in the old AOL political chats, years ago.

You aren't remotely original.  You're a yawn fest.

[Silver Pines]

Can the slander, my friend.  I do not defend abortion.   But I want abortion reduced by persuasion, not compulsion.  Persuasion works.   Support for adoption works.  Support for contraception works.  Abortion rates ARE coming down, all while preserving the woman's liberty.   

Liberty is what conservatism's all about.   Don't look to the state to impose your moral values - do the hard and necessary work of persuading others to do the right thing.   

@Jazzhead

Liberty for whom?  Maybe for the mother who doesn't want to be inconvenienced, but certainly not for the baby, whose heart is beating until the abortionist stills it.

[Silver Pines]

I am in my 50' s now.
I was born at 6 months, 3.5 early, weighting roughly 2 lbs.
The story is that the Dr. told my Dad, "don't bother naming him, he won't be around long".
I shudder to think if this were my situation since Roe v. Wade.
Well, I probably wouldn't be here to shudder, but most likely I may have been.
My mother was highly a devout christian woman.
I hope that would have remained the same

@Groucho Tex

Glad that didn't happen, my friend.

My mother-in-law had the measles while she was pregnant with her middle child (my husband).  The doctor told her she should have an abortion.  She ripped his head off and found another doctor.

[geronl]

@Jazzhead

Liberty for whom?  Maybe for the mother who doesn't want to be inconvenienced, but certainly not for the baby, whose heart is beating until the abortionist stills it.

steals it and sells it for profit

[Idaho_Cowboy]

@HatingOrange, you need to understand something.  See, I know you think you're being terribly shocking and controversial.  I know you believe that you're just busting in here and shaking up the place! but the truth is that you're just boring.  I've seen your schtick done better in the old AOL political chats, years ago.

You aren't remotely original.  You're a yawn fest.

You got that right. I got a butter knife that's edgier that this punk.

[TomSea]

I think abortion is, in most circumstances, morally wrong.  But I'm encouraged by statistics I saw just the other day that show the abortion rate is significantly down.  I think that's the better way to proceed -  persuasion and support for mothers to do the right thing, and more effective contraception.   I think abortion bans are blunt instruments, with unanticipated consequences, and I prefer the route of persuasion rather than compulsion.  '

The current law (no abortions, with very limited exceptions, after viability) represents a compromise.   I've heard that viability is at approximately 26 weeks, but perhaps its a bit sooner in some cases.  Taking that down to 20 weeks may be Constitutional, but it too just represents a political compromise.  Convenience abortions will remain legal,  and it is mothers in more difficult situations that will be forced by the state to give birth.   

You cite stats that abortions are significantly down but there is no reason to buy your premise that these women were "persuaded" and that too, seems to be forcing one's beliefs on others.

States at a minimum should decide community values.

States have passed many laws to decrease abortion, making it less available.

These arguments that the baby is not a human being smack of other arguments made against undesirables in the past.

[Silver Pines]

steals it and sells it for profit

@geronl

Monstrous.

[Silver Pines]

You got that right. I got a butter knife that's edgier that this punk.

@Idaho_Cowboy

Lol

His posts sound like they were made by someone very young.  I guess mom took too long heating up the Spaghettios, so while he was waiting he decided he was going to be all edgy and offensive and stuff.