Author Topic: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump  (Read 70517 times)

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Offline r9etb

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #400 on: October 21, 2016, 12:12:44 am »
Pardon me for weighing in, but rationale is just a way of excusing something that might otherwise be unacceptable. I watched a friend rationalize that a particular variety of coffee was better (because it was much cheaper). It wasn't. I have seen people justify a multitude of wrongs by rationalizing that 'they started it'. And so forth.

Are such people always and irredeemably evil? 

It's just stupid to dismiss all Trump voters -- and all Hillary voters, too, for that matter -- as evil.  Stupid and Pharisaical.

Most people are trapped in a two-party mindset, and they're just trying to do the right thing in a situation where it's not possible to do so.  By and large they're no more evil than you or me, and many less so, even if they do vote for Trump, or Hillary.



Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #401 on: October 21, 2016, 12:13:39 am »
In all my years pripr to marriage, I used my fair share of terms but "Moved on her like a bitch" I can't even begin to imagine a dude saying. I get the "Moved on" thing, corny as it is because he's a Studio 54/70s era guy. they wore platforms (and not pink strappy ones either.) But 'like a bitch'?

To use the term all the cool kids say lately...I can't EVEN....
My take on that was that he was implying she was a 'bitch' as opposed to a lady. Some of the women in Trump's social circles would not tolerate such behaviour, so apparently he had relegated her to a lower status undeserving of normal social decency and to be used as he saw fit.

I have seen similar in my bad old biker tramp days where there were 'old ladys' (someone's wife/girlfriend) to be treated with respect (or risk the ire of the entire club) and 'bitches' sometimes treated as camp followers (who willingly placed themselves in that position in hopes of moving up to 'old lady' status). It was a measure of the club for me how the latter group were treated, and often it was at least with basic respect.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline RoosGirl

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #402 on: October 21, 2016, 01:40:29 am »
@Suppressed

Have you walked up to strange women and grabbed their genitals?  Because that's the issue here, no matter how strenuously you try to deflect. 

 
Yeah, that's right.  My crotch is fair game for any dirty old man who wants to walk up to me and touch it.  How dare I get the idea that my private areas are just that, right?  Damned feminist SJW!

You know what you sound like?  Every contemptible, despicable stereotype put forth by women on the left.

I
Then why did Rudy Giuliani, former prosecutor, admit that it was, indeed, sexual assault?   

There's no need to assume anything when his own words are on tape.

I don't have to when I heard what he said on tape. 

Well, first of all, acknowledging that a woman's genitals are not part of the public domain is not a "worldview."  It's common decency.  Isn't it?

Secondly, I don't know why you would say that's "interesting".  Kissing is not sex.  And I don't believe most states consider kissing to legally count as sexual assault. 

Thirdly, yes, that IS where the line is drawn.  Halfway reasonable people understand that.  Why don't you?

If you acknowledge as much, why did you question where the line was drawn?

Most men wouldn't do it, I expect.  But you're trying to deflect again.  Kissing is not the issue.


Of course he said that.  How is he. a former prosecutor, going to say, yes, Trump is guilty of those things and I'm going to continue to support him?  He had no choice but to admit that the behavior was sexual assault.

No, let's remember that you and maybe a couple of lapdogs in Trump's camp are about the only people in the country twisting yourselves into pretzels to portray Trump as innocent.  It's generally acknowledged that yes, Trump did those things---because Trump's words were taken at face value.  The only way you can try to justify him is to mischaracterize what he said and add in a healthy dose of "what-ifs."

Won't work.


Ambiguous...LOL.

There's no need for interpretation when the words are clear, and Trump's were.

I have to say, I find it really interesting that you're so insistent on defending his actions.

@CatherineofAragon   Thank you for saying all of this.  I have given up, kudos to you for you brain not exploding having to explain all of that.  It is beyond ridiculous that Trump's kind of behavior is explained away.  I know people have a hard time admitting the truth to themselves at times, but holy cow, this is something else.  Wouldn't it just be so much easier for someone to say they're voting for the guy because he's not Hillary and just move on and not try to come up with crazy explanations?

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #403 on: October 21, 2016, 01:40:45 am »
Are such people always and irredeemably evil? 

It's just stupid to dismiss all Trump voters -- and all Hillary voters, too, for that matter -- as evil.  Stupid and Pharisaical.

Most people are trapped in a two-party mindset, and they're just trying to do the right thing in a situation where it's not possible to do so.  By and large they're no more evil than you or me, and many less so, even if they do vote for Trump, or Hillary.
No, I'm not dismissing them as evil, we're all sinners. How would you characterize someone who has been given guidance repeatedly who still goes back to the same problem?

Proverbs 26:11? As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

Decent people do evil things all the time, out of ignorance, not recognizing the results of their actions.
When people do things because they are misled or deceived does that make them evil?
Now we're getting in a little deeper, because people who are misled or deceived at some time usually realize what they are doing is wrong, and decide to either continue or stop.

I would postulate that by now, the wrong has been pointed out to all who will listen.
There are those who honestly believe there is nothing wrong with what they support,
That is getting pretty close to evil in my book, but I am not the one to judge them, save to avoid such people in my personal and other dealings.

Those who refuse to be swayed, who refuse to listen are either giving complete approval for whatever reason (possibly out of the anger that snared them), or cannot handle the idea that they chose poorly and remain in denial. A sad failure of judgement followed by moral cowardice. Pitiable, but likely not evil, people. Still, no one to run the river with.
 
Others continue in the rationalization that now they have no choice but to do one wrong in hopes of preventing another and greater wrong, but to do wrong nonetheless, and to take a chance on that gradation. If they are comfortable with that, there is evil in the rationale that led them there.

Thinking they are making the best of a bad situation, admitting the flaws which may be inherent in that choice, but still backing evil. Those who fear a greater evil from other quarters and think this is the best option, are trapped by a false dichotomy they only perpetuate by their fear. Evil, no, only afraid.

There is no freedom there, only the chains of hate or fear, binding even ordinarily good people to committing themselves to do something they know deeply to be wrong, but feeling they have no choice.

To have a better option, they need to do the very thing they fear most: to leave the plantation, to shed those chains of fear and vote their conscience. The truth shall set you free.

If there is to be salvation of the Conservative movement, it's people must rally around a set of principles, not a person. Those principles will remain steadfast, people do not, and no one will likely match them 100% for their entire life, but would show a progression in principle toward that ideal. A suitable candidate would come close. Character counts, and their actions will reflect that character.

Consider we are choosing a representative of all that is America, someone to represent our nation to the world. In the past we have stood for Liberty, we need to practice it. In the past we have stood for strength, militarily, to be wielded against those who threaten our liberty.
In the past we have stood for fairness, we need to show it. In the past we have proven generous and merciful to our vanquished enemies, we should continue.
That is no mandate to impose our way of life on the unwilling, and our actions should grant them the right to live as they choose so long as they don't seek to impose that on others who are unwilling. We are the 'golden rule' embodied in a nation, and letting the most vile aspects of our culture percolate to the top and run the show is not the formula for continuing to be the America that has fought for Truth and Justice in the World.

We're not behaving like we were raised, as a nation to behave, and that leads to misery and unhappiness, a poverty of our national soul as well as our treasuries.

Those Founding principles, with some amendments were there, woven into the very fabric of America, along with a form of government designed to make it more difficult for those with evil or selfish intent to alter or destroy, to limit the abuse of power.

Every vote for even a lesser evil takes us away from our formative selves as individuals and a nation.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online Fishrrman

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #404 on: October 21, 2016, 02:19:11 am »
Oceander wrote:
"It's not a matter of @Luis Gonzalez trying to censor history, it's about trying to keep some slight modicum of peace here."

When someone says "it isn't about censorship"...
....it's about censorship.

Offline r9etb

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #405 on: October 21, 2016, 02:35:29 am »
No, I'm not dismissing them as evil, we're all sinners. How would you characterize someone who has been given guidance repeatedly who still goes back to the same problem?
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Every vote for even a lesser evil takes us away from our formative selves as individuals and a nation.

A good post. 

Still, one way to characterize those people is .... that they see things differently.  No more or less than that.  What's more, I have a great deal of sympathy with the position that a President Hillary is not just worse, but far worse, than would be the case under Trump.  I don't believe that to be the case, but I can see how many people could, and act accordingly.

Not just that, but even if we're entirely right and they're entirely wrong, those are the same people we will need to work with, together, to cobble together something worthwhile from the rubble of the Republican Party.  And the beauty of it is, they're mostly good people who want to do the right thing.

The worst possible thing to do, is what "conservatives" (I use the term pejoratively) always seem to do: excommunicate people for believing differently. 

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #406 on: October 21, 2016, 05:18:22 am »
A good post. 

Still, one way to characterize those people is .... that they see things differently.  No more or less than that.  What's more, I have a great deal of sympathy with the position that a President Hillary is not just worse, but far worse, than would be the case under Trump.  I don't believe that to be the case, but I can see how many people could, and act accordingly.

Not just that, but even if we're entirely right and they're entirely wrong, those are the same people we will need to work with, together, to cobble together something worthwhile from the rubble of the Republican Party.  And the beauty of it is, they're mostly good people who want to do the right thing.

The worst possible thing to do, is what "conservatives" (I use the term pejoratively) always seem to do: excommunicate people for believing differently.
I think we are on the right track. Part of the problem is that the word "Conservative" has been taken to be the same thing as "Republican". For a while, Republicans were fairly conservative, but they don't get to steal the word and take it to the left with the Party.  **nononono*

Conservatism is an ideology, not a political party. If that can't be sorted out, those of us who are part and parcel tied to that ideology need to find a new name for it and ourselves, and let the Republicans finish the hydraulic tailspin into political oblivion.

We often agree on the problems we want to solve, sometimes we disagree on what is the best way to go about that, and one thing is certain, there have been bitter disagreements of late as to who is the best person to lead those changes. That will likely cost the Republican Party what should have been an easy election. That damage is done.

What will rise from those ashes? I for one have been a proponent of taking the reins of an existing Party closely aligned with the political views we hold, which has a solution to the problems, and going full tilt to bump the elephant from the dais. The Democrats came close to schism this year as well, with Bernie's Socialists putting up one of the toughest primary fights seen in a while.

I have made no secret of the Party I favor, and only obscurity allows certain political elements to malign it and characterize it as something it isn't. If you read their competitors' stuff about it, it's anything from holy roller to troofer to really stuff for late Friday night teevee.

 Nope. The platform is based on the US Constitution, which with the widespread ignorance in the Republic may well seem really out there, because when you read it and realize that many entrenched Federal Agencies and Programs have absolutely no Constitutional Authority to exist, that those powers should by rights be the purview of the several states, and that the Federal Government is doing things which only by the most elastic interpretations of the letter of the law are legal, interpretations far beyond anything ever intended by the Founders.

I'm all for throwing in there, and likely that would be welcome as long as no one tried to change too much. Frankly, there isn't much I'd change. I wish I could say that about the Republicans, but I can't. that party is pretty well rusted out for a frame-off restoration, and the current occupants would be eminently hostile to that sort of tinkering with their fiefdom.

We know in the future to have any political voice we are going to have to have numbers, too.
Crying out in the wilderness is fine exercise, but not many hear what you have to say.
They don't hear it with their fingers in their ears running around shouting 'la' repeatedly, either.

But, deep down, we're suffering from brand confusion. Republican got to the point where anyone who wanted could hop on board and be one, without any onus to hold or express a set of beliefs. With "Conservatism" identified (incorrectly) as "Republican, the two got muddled.

Task number one: Let's define "conservatism". There is an essential set of fundamental values we're going to want to see there. Some are moral ("family values"), many are simply following the Constitution.

Let's make a list of the agencies we'd eliminate/downsize/combine and reorganize all with reduced scope and capacity in order to move the federal Government back within Constitutional constraints, including the powers to be returned to the several states.

Let's also make a list of priorities, things the Federal Government is Constitutionally tasked with, the duties thereof, and what changes would need to be made to make that happen.

Let's also make another list of the things the Federal Government is doing that it just does not have the Constitutional authority to do. Programs and Departments which simply have no business being there. Some will be sacred cows, but let's put them down anyway.

Let's cut the budget (yes, a budget!) by 10% without cutting into the ability of the Federal Government to carry out its duly Constitutionally appointed tasks. Efficiency, shopping around, streamlining procurement processes while keeping them accountable all can be done. Something as simple as packaging items in the lowest common denominator of what is actually needed to perform a task would save on needless expense and waste.

Let's list the regulations we'd alter, freeze, eliminate in favor of State regulations in general, and then work on specifics. I'm sure everyone has some.

Find out who we send money to, and other foreign aid, and decide where we might want to shorten the list and reduce the amount and where increasing it might prove beneficial if done correctly. Much of that aid is done as food, let's make that part of a trade deal so the incentive to develop a trade of food for other commodities or products can be done, hopefully building both economies to our mutual benefit. Lets find a way to balance trade that will bring prosperity to all parties and encourage the growth of domestic industries.

Lets figure out how to re-balance the balance of power, not only within the Federal Government and Constitutional Constraints, but also between Federal, State, and Local Government. Let's reduce mandates to suggestions where we can, and none of the former without the funding to comply--if that funding and mandate is Constitutional.

Let's find a way to raise revenue we can agree with and levels we can live with, while balancing the budget and paying down the debt.

Let's figure out an equitable way to reduce federal land ownership in the West and return that land to productivity, not just to benefit those states, but the entire country.

Lets straighten out the mess Obamacare has made and do away with it. Instead of exchanges and subsidies, let's put medicaid on a sliding scale to pay for actual care only and let the insurance companies come up with supplemental programs which fill the gap, and do away with penalties. As people prosper, they pick up more of their health insurance/care costs. The poor are still covered, and the transition becomes do-able rather than a fiscal cliff to climb.

Let's keep a strong and innovative military, especially navy and air force, and take back the lead in space exploration, whether private, public, or a combination of efforts.

Let's dispense with the lunacy surrounding Anthropogenic Global Warming and associated solutions to problems we not only cannot fix, but have not caused. Let's quit funding so much research that is not directly related to the Constitutional duties of the Government. Let industry or private funding take up the slack as people decide what research should be done and vote with their dollars.

Let's reclaim our sovereignty from international agencies which seek to subvert it and become as much as any nation the masters of our own destiny.

Let's push softly for a return to a moral and just America, If you would not do it in front of your Mom, chances are it shouldn't be on TV except in the most restricted venues. Let's become the sort of people again who can put a broadcast show on prime time without a 'bleep' every few seconds. If we are going to be cultural leaders, let's be unashamed of what we produce, and a culture worth emulating.

There is a lot I'd like to see, and last but not least, the Congress can remand the decisions about abortion law to the States from any Supreme Court jurisdiction, and equally, the decisions about whether or not to allow prayer in schools to the individual school districts or even schools.
That isn't saying anyone would be required to worship, but that the option would be open for those who wish to do so in states where the legislatures saw fit to make that option available.

That is just a rant, but also a start to get juices flowing and open the discussion. If we want to save this Republic it is up to all of us, not the actions of any one person, to make it happen. If we sit around and wait to be saved, the Republic will not survive.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline EC

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #407 on: October 21, 2016, 05:49:55 am »
Poll for those interested, as a result of the conversation between @Norm Lenhart  and @r9etb

http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php?topic=230720.0
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 05:50:32 am by EC »
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Offline Suppressed

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #408 on: October 21, 2016, 06:15:58 am »
That is just a rant, but also a start to get juices flowing and open the discussion. If we want to save this Republic it is up to all of us, not the actions of any one person, to make it happen. If we sit around and wait to be saved, the Republic will not survive.

@Smokin Joe

Excellent post.

I hope this discussion takes off; it's exactly what we need, in order to know where we're going in the future.

 I suggest it should get its own thread.

Thank you.
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Offline r9etb

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #409 on: October 21, 2016, 11:37:40 am »
That is just a rant, but also a start to get juices flowing and open the discussion. If we want to save this Republic it is up to all of us, not the actions of any one person, to make it happen. If we sit around and wait to be saved, the Republic will not survive.

A very excellent one.

First thing is, as you say this:  "Task number one: Let's define "conservatism". There is an essential set of fundamental values we're going to want to see there. Some are moral ("family values"), many are simply following the Constitution."

And that's the most important thing.  People aren't conservative because of policies, but because of we hold certain things to be most important.  The policies should reflect our values: they cannot stand alone.

Values such as:

Families are the basis of society and we should do everything we can to ensure that families can properly raise their kids.

Honesty is an essential part of a healthy society.  Pretense is not a basis for policy.

People have duties and responsibilities.  It is proper to respect those who do their duty, and proper to disdain those who shirk it.

Pay your own way, as best you can.

Manners matter: don't be an a$$hole.

People have a right to speak.

Things like that. 

Offline jpsb

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #410 on: October 21, 2016, 12:03:00 pm »
Most pundits agree that Trump's last chance to win the election lives or dies with the Florida vote.

I'm in Florida.

I'm not voting for Hillary but I'm not voting for Trump either.

Politics will miss you.

Hillary appreciates your support (and Bill does too, more interns)

Offline jpsb

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #411 on: October 21, 2016, 12:03:53 pm »
She has NOTHING to do with it. She didn't make Trump what he is. She is not the only option other than trump. No one has a gun to their head. If they do, they put it there and that's their problem.

No. I have ZERO sympathy. None for anyone that refuses to see the reality of a situation and chooses evil intentionally regardless of anything else. I understand the situation as it is. I am not inventing excuses as to why one evil must be empowered so that another evil is not.


Offline jpsb

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #412 on: October 21, 2016, 12:12:12 pm »
While your statement is unfounded (not a soul here is 'helping elect Hillary Clinton'), more importantly, whether Clinton or not, the statement has nothing to do with the definition of Conservatism or Conservatives.

Conservatives stand upon certain and definable principles. Conservatives vote for those who advance those principles. That they will not vote for your boy, who embodies not a single ONE of those principles, is not only predictable, but was predicted from the very start of things. We TOLD you so. You were warned. Continuously and at volume.

Again, give Conservatives someone to vote *FOR*, and you will win.

Yours is nothing but a modified claim toward the lesser evil argument, and is of no merit.

Enjoy Madame President

Offline jpsb

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #413 on: October 21, 2016, 12:27:52 pm »
Let her. She can't take the Right away, and 80,000,000 gun owners with enough firearms to put one in the hands of every man, woman, and child in the USA aren't just going to meekly hand them over to her or anyone else.

@Smokin Joe

You wouldn't stand a chance against a modern Army with modern weapons.  There is zero doubt in my mind that the UN would instantly grant authority to say the Chinese military or the Russian military to assist Hillary in taking the guns away.

All for he children you know.

Nope the 2cd is gone once Hillary takes office and packs the courts with Marxist judges. And you can forget about ever over turning Rode v Wade or keeping your freedom of religion.

Every conservative principle y'all claim to have is finished with Hillary as president. Gone forever.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRSuFj1Jii4
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 12:37:48 pm by jpsb »

Offline txradioguy

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #414 on: October 21, 2016, 12:59:04 pm »
@Smokin Joe

You wouldn't stand a chance against a modern Army with modern weapons.  There is zero doubt in my mind that the UN would instantly grant authority to say the Chinese military or the Russian military to assist Hillary in taking the guns away.

All for he children you know.

Nope the 2cd is gone once Hillary takes office and packs the courts with Marxist judges. And you can forget about ever over turning Rode v Wade or keeping your freedom of religion.

Every conservative principle y'all claim to have is finished with Hillary as president. Gone forever.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRSuFj1Jii4

You sure seem fond of using Russian imagery...why is that?


Oh and Roe v Wade...isn't going to get overturned no matter who is in office unfortunately.  That's just the facts of life.

The courts are already packed with Marxist Judges thanks to the feckless GOP leadership in Congress right now.

Now sure what pathetic point you were trying to make...but as usual you failed miserably.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 01:00:58 pm by txradioguy »
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Offline r9etb

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #415 on: October 21, 2016, 01:57:48 pm »
Now sure what pathetic point you were trying to make...but as usual you failed miserably.

It's the usual "the end of the world is nigh unless you vote for Trump" sort of twaddle. 

He's offering to share his lunch with us.  It's a sh*t sandwich, however, and he gets first pick.

Offline Norm Lenhart

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #416 on: October 21, 2016, 02:01:34 pm »
I think we are on the right track. Part of the problem is that the word "Conservative" has been taken to be the same thing as "Republican". For a while, Republicans were fairly conservative, but they don't get to steal the word and take it to the left with the Party.  **nononono*

Conservatism is an ideology, not a political party. If that can't be sorted out, those of us who are part and parcel tied to that ideology need to find a new name for it and ourselves, and let the Republicans finish the hydraulic tailspin into political oblivion.


Joe, overall, I completely agree. And when I say this I mean in no way to minimize the considerable time and thought you have given this.

All we have to do is do what Reagan told us. There is no need to reinvent the wheel. It's already all there. We just have to run with it.

Offline Norm Lenhart

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #417 on: October 21, 2016, 02:03:58 pm »


You have not atoned. Donald's disappointment in you grows. You failed to bring us to heel. You were disloyal and are now interfering with his vision. You re the enemy of Donald.

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #418 on: October 21, 2016, 02:04:23 pm »
All we have to do is do what Reagan told us. There is no need to reinvent the wheel. It's already all there. We just have to run with it.


Conservatives have been aping Reagan for 30 years now. It doesn't work anymore, nor has worked well up to now. We need new ideas.

Offline Norm Lenhart

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #419 on: October 21, 2016, 02:11:29 pm »

Conservatives have been aping Reagan for 30 years now. It doesn't work anymore, nor has worked well up to now. We need new ideas.

No they have not. Republicans have been cherrypicking Reagan, psuedocons have been mouthing Reagan. Very few actually followed his direction.

No matter how you parse it, Truth is either truth eternally or is was a lie to begin with. This is totally binary. Truth is ny definition 'The reality' of how something is. Not someone's interp that chan change.

What you are saying is that Reagan was never right. And thats complete bullshit. If he was right, then he was right. The principles have not changed. People have. Thus if the principle/truth is in fact the truth, we can either follow the people's fantasy, which we did and what created this mess, or we can recognize the truth/principle as the reality and move ahead with it.

Offline r9etb

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #420 on: October 21, 2016, 02:11:51 pm »

Conservatives have been aping Reagan for 30 years now. It doesn't work anymore, nor has worked well up to now. We need new ideas.

Even understanding the old ideas would be a great improvement.

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #421 on: October 21, 2016, 02:14:32 pm »
No they have not. Republicans have been cherrypicking Reagan, psuedocons have been mouthing Reagan. Very few actually followed his direction.


You believe what you want to believe, but during the debates I saw a bunch of the same idea: hyper aggressive foreign policy paired with platitudes about "less government". Carly Fiorina sounded like she would nuke russia the day she took office.


No wonder they don't resonate.

Offline Sanguine

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #422 on: October 21, 2016, 02:15:59 pm »

You believe what you want to believe, but during the debates I saw a bunch of the same idea: hyper aggressive foreign policy paired with platitudes about "less government". Carly Fiorina sounded like she would nuke russia the day she took office.


No wonder they don't resonate.

Well, that's an interesting point of view.   Not sure where you'd have to stand to see things that way though.

Offline Norm Lenhart

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #423 on: October 21, 2016, 02:16:02 pm »
Even understanding the old ideas would be a great improvement.

Remember the conversation yesterday? How do you suppose we understand the old ideas and advance them when people apply situational ethics every time they get scared? If people WANTED them, they would not make excuse after excuse to blow them off and do anything BUT them.

Thats why you cannot simply get along in one big kumbaya hugfest. The old ideas are about standing on a core set of principles, first and foremost. If you cannot trust your group to do that, you have NOTHING from square one.

Offline Norm Lenhart

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Re: WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump
« Reply #424 on: October 21, 2016, 02:18:16 pm »

You believe what you want to believe, but during the debates I saw a bunch of the same idea: hyper aggressive foreign policy paired with platitudes about "less government". Carly Fiorina sounded like she would nuke russia the day she took office.


No wonder they don't resonate.

It's not a matter of belief. It's demonstrated Reality. There is exactly one giy since Reagan that embodied his ideal. Cruz. Then he sold out and his support collapsed with it.

His support came from the FACT that he embodied Reaganism. One guy in 30 years. Tell me again how it's been tried so often.