Laura Ingraham: We've been waiting for this moment

[Silver Pines]

Ultimately Trump is innocent until proven guilty.  He's at least entitled to that . And  I'll leave it at that

@LMAO

He's entitled to that particular presumption in a court of law.  Otherwise, we're free to speculate as we wish.

And he admitted it.

[mirraflake]

In spite of all the ADULT men on this forum countering your claims that ALL men and women behave as pre-pubescent creeps, you keep insisting that your sordid little world is the way things actually work.

You're hurting Donnie's cause here.  Stop flailing.

All?  Only 3 maybe 4 men posters don't  agree with me. The others are keeping silent.

@musiclady

[geronl]

Almost makes you wonder if that wasn't the plan all along?

I think it was.

[Silver Pines]

Do you really think the women Trump has supposedly done this to are innocent little virgins on religious camp in the Big Apple?

No, they are rough and tumble, streetwise, know what and whom they are dealing with and have dealt with guys plenty worse than Trump and shall I say it... most if not all women who flock around Trump are Gold Diggers or want something out of him also.  Like people hang out together.

Only one woman has claimed Trump did this to her (Jill Harth?) and she has praised him as a candidate and is supporting him.

@musiclady

@mirraflake, just the other day, one of those hags on "The View" said that the women who accused Bill Clinton were sluts.  You're doing something very similar right here.  You're basically saying, hey, those chicks knew their way around, so what's the big deal? 
He grabbed their crotches; so what?

I guess women who aren't "innocent little virgins at religious camp" should expect their crotches to be fair game for Trump, and keep quiet about it. 

[mirraflake]

In spite of all the ADULT men on this forum countering your claims that ALL men and women behave as pre-pubescent creeps, you keep insisting that your sordid little world is the way things actually work.

4 men honey.  Not all. Because most have done exactly what I admit to have done.

@musiclady

[Silver Pines]

Well then let's  solve this. Let's pass a law that men and women have to carry sexual permission slips. They will have to be filled out by both parties and agreed to before any act of intimacy takes place. Some  are taking their opposition of Trump and are starting to sound more and more like the left. And their latching on to Rudy Giuliani's words as a sort of lifeline without trying to understand any context

Are some advocating that if a man makes a pass at a woman he's guilty of sexual assault? That seems a little extreme to me.

You are looking at this through the prism of a female. That a man like Trump thinks he can do whatever he wants because he's famous and rich. I get that. I'm just saying there needs to be some context here a little bit. In Trump's own words, he didn't say they don't dare say no or they don't dare turn you in. He just says they let you do it

@LMAO
What are we supposed to look at it through, the prism of a silverback gorilla?  My prism, and that of @musiclady, is as valid as yours, so don't condescend and give us that "let's have a little context."

Grabbing a woman's crotch is not "making a pass."  Do you get that?  It is sexual assault.  Giuliani, the former prosecutor, said so himself.

[mirraflake]

So should a gay man get the same leniency when he grabs you in sexual ways?  Because a woman is not likely to do it. 

Men are stronger than women, generally.  They do not have the threat of rape intimidating them from enjoying the freedom to come and go at times and in places of their choosing....generally.  Whatever the issues a man has with perverse thoughts, he needs to show self control in his actions.  Trumps words were about his actions.  He was not a hormonal teenager.  And the most vile part of what he said was that his position of power (being a star) gave him special privileges to assault women in a sexual manner.  HE IS AN ABUSE OF POWER WAITING TO HAPPEN and should not be given the power of the Presidency.  What anyone else has done in the past does not change that fact.  Trump is unfit for the presidency.

You may justify yourself and sear your own conscience with the excuse that all men agree with you.  But you are just making an excuse for your own guilt.  You own it.  Your need to drag other men down in the mud with you is revolting.

Do I need to keep repeating myself? What Trump did was wrong..grabbing crotches, forced kisses etc and I would never do it nor be with men who do it.

MY argument was sex talk men do about women among themselves "Wow she has a great a$$" sort of talk. . My point was all men do it...or nearly all.  And most women do it also-describe men's bodies is sexual ways among themselves. I got in an argument with music lady and emjay because in their world men never do this sort of thing-they married Godly men...  naive.  LMAO

That's it the last time I will say this..   jeesh.

@RAT Patrol

[Emjay]

I just want to point out that the issue here is not worshiping Trump.  We're not electing him God, archangel, angel, or Pope, Bishop, or pastor, or even national "daddy".  He's being elected to a position to set national policy on a whole bunch of overwhelmingly secular issues.  And when it comes time for whomever is elected to nominate judges, select a cabinet, issues executive orders, etc.., whether or not Trump is a pig is going to have much less effect on all of us, including women, then what policies he and Hillary will implement.  If you view then as little different than one another on that level, then this won't make a difference.

But if someone does see a significant distinction, then Trump being a pig in a 2005 video will be a miniscule blip in terms of historical relevance when measured about against what happens in this country from 2017-2020.

Trump cannot be trusted.  Hillary will advance every liberal issue that comes along.  We know that.  But Hillary is at least sane.  Mean, but sane.

Trump has taken every position on every issue.  He has been for (and against) Obama Care (he calls it Trump Care ... or don't leave someone dying in the street care).

He has been for and against abortions (but you know darn well he probably paid for a few)

He has been against employing illegals (but he's employed them a lot)

He wants a wall...maybe... but one with back door so that good workers who will work for him cheaper can get back in.

He thinks his sister ... a huge abortion advocate ... would make a good justice... but he's joking, right?

He admires Putin... but hates Cruz.

His sexual nastiness and predilections are just icing on a terrible cake.

Eat it if you want to but I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.  (that is a pole that's exactly ten feet long)

[INVAR]

4 men honey.  Not all. Because most have done exactly what I admit to have done.

Wrong. Gentlemen and real men do not act or talk about women in the manner you pride yourself on.  Only little boys who never grew up or grew up to be abusers or rapists pride themselves on that kind of behavior.

[LMAO]

@LMAO
What are we supposed to look at it through, the prism of a silverback gorilla?  My prism, and that of @musiclady, is as valid as yours, so don't condescend and give us that "let's have a little context."

Grabbing a woman's crotch is not "making a pass."  Do you get that?  It is sexual assault.  Giuliani, the former prosecutor, said so himself.

Well, that's why we have laws so we don't become nothing more than silverback gorillas. Those laws are in place to not only protect women from Trump's unwanted advancements but to protect Mr Trump, also.

[sinkspur]

All?  Only 3 maybe 4 men posters don't  agree with me. The others are keeping silent.

@musiclady

Don't assume they agree with you.  Maybe they just think your suggestion is dopey.

[musiclady]

Well then let's  solve this. Let's pass a law that men and women have to carry sexual permission slips. They will have to be filled out by both parties and agreed to before any act of intimacy takes place. Some  are taking their opposition of Trump and are starting to sound more and more like the left. And their latching on to Rudy Giuliani's words as a sort of lifeline without trying to understand any context

Are some advocating that if a man makes a pass at a woman he's guilty of sexual assault? That seems a little extreme to me.

You are looking at this through the prism of a female. That a man like Trump thinks he can do whatever he wants because he's famous and rich. I get that. I'm just saying there needs to be some context here a little bit. In Trump's own words, he didn't say they don't dare say no or they don't dare turn you in. He just says they let you do it

Well, that's the point isn't it?  Shouldn't you want to learn from women about this subject?

Because we are the ones, by and large, who are the victims of sexual assaults and abuse.  As @RAT Patrol has said, WE are the ones who aren't free to do what we want nor go where we please because of the threat of rape and assault.  Your gender, as a rule, are the perpetrators of sexual violence and not the victims of it.

This entire subject is about a man, Donald Trump, who uses his power and wealth to assault women (yes, it IS assault to grab a woman's genitals).  He's not grabbing men's private parts (probably because most men would deck him.  Most of us don't have the strength to do that), so I might turn your comment around on you and say, you're looking at it as a man, and imply that it somehow negates your opinion.

But the fact is that the people Trump has molested are women.  Our perspective on the threat and fear of sexual predators is germane to this conversation.

I appreciate very much that you and @Maj. Bill Martin are trying very hard to be fair, and not in any way excusing Trump's horrific behavior, but I think both of you need to be stretched beyond the theoretical and think about the very real threat to women that men like Clinton and Trump pose.

@LMAO

[musiclady]

So should a gay man get the same leniency when he grabs you in sexual ways?  Because a woman is not likely to do it. 

Men are stronger than women, generally.  They do not have the threat of rape intimidating them from enjoying the freedom to come and go at times and in places of their choosing....generally.  Whatever the issues a man has with perverse thoughts, he needs to show self control in his actions.  Trumps words were about his actions.  He was not a hormonal teenager.  And the most vile part of what he said was that his position of power (being a star) gave him special privileges to assault women in a sexual manner.  HE IS AN ABUSE OF POWER WAITING TO HAPPEN and should not be given the power of the Presidency.  What anyone else has done in the past does not change that fact.  Trump is unfit for the presidency.

You may justify yourself and sear your own conscience with the excuse that all men agree with you.  But you are just making an excuse for your own guilt.  You own it.  Your need to drag other men down in the mud with you is revolting.

QFT

[Maj. Bill Martin]

@Maj. Bill Martin

Somehow I suspect that you didn't make a habit of walking up and planting one on every woman you were attracted to.  Right?  Women you didn't know, just looked at and thought, "She's hot---let me go kiss her because I'm Major Martin and I can get away with it." 
In other words, you weren't a lecherous oaf who refused to respect personal boundaries.

No, that's true.  What I'm saying is there is a continuum, and I also was addressing the argument that unless someone says "yes", don't.  Did Trump think the women were willing in his case?  I really don't know. 

To be clear, I think Trump is a lecherous toad.  But there's a whole world of entertainment/wealth where there are plenty of women who actually are willing to do that with a guy who is sufficiently rich and powerful.  So it's not that I think that what he did was okay - it was not.   It's the degree of condemnation that is appropriate in the context of a presidential election.  That's what I think is fuzzy.  Apparently (and I'm just repeating this, I really don't know) the worst incident was involving some woman who likes and supports the guy. 

I do have to say that I have actually had the "cold kiss/grope" approach done to me by some women.  Literally out of nowhere.  Not that it happened a lot, but it happened.  And as long as it was a one shot deal, and the "thanks but no thanks" was respected, I didn't think it a big deal.  Not that it was okay, just not a federal case.  It is different between men and women, though I'm not sure I can articulate why that is or why it should be.

[LMAO]

Well, that's the point isn't it?  Shouldn't you want to learn from women about this subject?

Because we are the ones, by and large, who are the victims of sexual assaults and abuse.  As @RAT Patrol has said, WE are the ones who aren't free to do what we want nor go where we please because of the threat of rape and assault.  Your gender, as a rule, are the perpetrators of sexual violence and not the victims of it.

This entire subject is about a man, Donald Trump, who uses his power and wealth to assault women (yes, it IS assault to grab a woman's genitals).  He's not grabbing men's private parts (probably because most men would deck him.  Most of us don't have the strength to do that), so I might turn your comment around on you and say, you're looking at it as a man, and imply that it somehow negates your opinion.

But the fact is that the people Trump has molested are women.  Our perspective on the threat and fear of sexual predators is germane to this conversation.

I appreciate very much that you and @Maj. Bill Martin are trying very hard to be fair, and not in any way excusing Trump's horrific behavior, but I think both of you need to be stretched beyond the theoretical and think about the very real threat to women that men like Clinton and Trump pose.

@LMAO

@musiclady

But the legal system doesn't work that way. It's supposed to be fact based. Even Rudy Guliani(sp) despite his statement, would know that in order to charge and try someone for sexual assault, his office would have to conduct an investigation. Questions would be asked of all involved. And I can guarantee one of the questions asked would be of the woman if she told him no or resisted any of his advances.

Trump is a pig and as far as wooing women goes, he's no Casanova. But that isn't a crime. May kill your electoral chances. But it's not a prison sentence

[musiclady]

No, that's true.  What I'm saying is there is a continuum, and I also was addressing the argument that unless someone says "yes", don't.  Did Trump think the women were willing in his case?  I really don't know. 

To be clear, I think Trump is a lecherous toad.  But there's a whole world of entertainment/wealth where there are plenty of women who actually are willing to do that with a guy who is sufficiently rich and powerful.  So it's not that I think that what he did was okay - it was not.   It's the degree of condemnation that is appropriate in the context of a presidential election.  That's what I think is fuzzy.  Apparently (and I'm just repeating this, I really don't know) the worst incident was involving some woman who likes and supports the guy. 

I do have to say that I have actually had the "cold kiss/grope" approach done to me by some women.  Literally out of nowhere.  Not that it happened a lot, but it happened.  And as long as it was a one shot deal, and the "thanks but no thanks" was respected, I didn't think it a big deal.  Not that it was okay, just not a federal case.  It is different between men and women, though I'm not sure I can articulate why that is or why it should be.

Power.

Society, in general, agrees with protecting the weak from the strong.

(Except, of course, in the case of abortion where the weak can be dismembered by the strong so a woman can go to the Bahamas........... but that's a subject for a different thread.....)

[Silver Pines]

Well, that's why we have laws so we don't become nothing more than silverback gorillas. Those laws are in place to not only protect women from Trump's unwanted advancements but to protect Mr Trump, also.

@LMAO

Yes, let's protect "Mr. Trump", by all means. 

[Maj. Bill Martin]

I appreciate very much that you and @Maj. Bill Martin are trying very hard to be fair, and not in any way excusing Trump's horrific behavior, but I think both of you need to be stretched beyond the theoretical and think about the very real threat to women that men like Clinton and Trump pose.

Just guessing here, but I suspect @LMAO  is a lawyer as well, and for the most part, we are the most hesitant group on earth to reach conclusions unless we think we have all the relevant facts.  So to address this point with Bill Clinton, I see a line between Paula Jones and Juanita Broaddrick.  With Jones, he was a scuzzy sexual harasser, but there wasn't anything really criminal.  He did take "no" for an answer.  With Broaddrick, completely different story.

Trump seems to have been at the Paula Jones level of sleaze during that period.  While I think that is disgusting, I don't think it rises to the level of a disqualifer given who he is facing.

[musiclady]

@musiclady

But the legal system doesn't work that way. It's supposed to be fact based. Even Rudy Guliani(sp) despite his statement, would know that in order to charge and try someone for sexual assault, his office would have to conduct an investigation. Questions would be asked of all involved. And I can guarantee one of the questions asked would be of the woman if she told him no or resisted any of his advances.

Trump is a pig and as far as wooing women goes, he's no Casanova. But that isn't a crime. May kill your electoral chances. But it's not a prison sentence

I hope some of the women he's groped press charges and his power and wealth doesn't protect him from being charged, or convicted, as it did with Bill Clinton, his twin.

Of course, his power and wealth keeps women from accusing him, and most likely protects him from being taken to court, but it's really important that some of the women he's molested start speaking up now that it's been revealed that he's molested them.

If he has done what he has bragged about, he should be in prison.  Serial molesters are dangerous people.


btw, if my gender is irrelevant to the legal discussion, why did you bring it up other than to dismiss my opinion as invalid?  Just curious.

[LMAO]

@LMAO

Yes, let's protect "Mr. Trump", by all means.

Well despite how we feel about him, he is still an American citizen with Constitutional protections.Fact is, he is still only accused.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

Power.

Society, in general, agrees with protecting the weak from the strong.

That works if the man is using/threatening his physical strength.  It doesn't explain it if he's not.  No real difference between a quick grope by a girl or guy in terms of "power" in a lot of situations.  Not that I don't think there's a difference -- it's just that I don't think it comes down to just that.

[musiclady]

Just guessing here, but I suspect @LMAO  is a lawyer as well, and for the most part, we are the most hesitant group on earth to reach conclusions unless we think we have all the relevant facts.  So to address this point with Bill Clinton, I see a line between Paula Jones and Juanita Broaddrick.  With Jones, he was a scuzzy sexual harasser, but there wasn't anything really criminal.  He did take "no" for an answer.  With Broaddrick, completely different story.

Trump seems to have been at the Paula Jones level of sleaze during that period.  While I think that is disgusting, I don't think it rises to the level of a disqualifer given who he is facing.

That's a valid opinion.  But how do you know there's not a Juanita Broaddrick out there who has been intimidated and is afraid to speak up?

I can't recall, but how long was it before Juanita had the courage to tell her story?  It was long after he raped her, IIRC.

The two men are cut from the same filthy, narcissistic, vulgar, misogynist cloth.

I would actually be surprised based on what he has confessed to publicly, that he hasn't gone much farther with other women.

btw, I suppose it's good that lawyers are hesitant to convict on video confessions, but at the same time, the real world involves more than just legalese and theory.  It's good to get some compassion into the discussion as well.  These women have been molested, and I'm sure many have been traumatized by his filth.

Don't forget about them as you discuss the theory of how the law works.

[musiclady]

Well despite how we feel about him, he is still an American citizen with Constitutional protections. Fact is, he is still only accused.

By his own confession on videotape.

Makes a difference, doesn't it counselor?  ^-^

[musiclady]

That works if the man is using/threatening his physical strength.  It doesn't explain it if he's not.  No real difference between a quick grope by a girl or guy in terms of "power" in a lot of situations.  Not that I don't think there's a difference -- it's just that I don't think it comes down to just that.

How does it make no difference if the man is presumably stronger?  And especially if his power is also in his wealth and position?

Feels like an excuse to make the reality of what Trump did go away, and it's not working.

[Emjay]

I don't understand all this nit picking to attempt to excuse Trump's words and behavior.

He's not on trial in a court of law.  He's on trial in the public perception of whether he's fit to be president.

Most women think he is not.  Take that to your locker room and smoke it.