Author Topic: Defeated anti-Trump delegates vow trouble during the convention  (Read 3735 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline driftdiver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9,897
  • Gender: Male
  • I could eat it raw but why when I have fire
Re: Defeated anti-Trump delegates vow trouble during the convention
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2016, 05:00:44 pm »
As I said on another thread..
What if your candidate won, fair and square, and Mitt and his gang tried to railroad your guy?

Would that still be OK? **nononono* **nononono*

I think you're implying Trump won fair and square.    A laughable assertion.

Fools mock, tongues wag, babies cry and goats bleat.

Offline Emjay

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12,687
  • Gender: Female
  • Womp, womp
Re: Defeated anti-Trump delegates vow trouble during the convention
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2016, 05:03:00 pm »
Quote from Axel:  There's room for you in the tent, but not if you're going to act like a spoiled child because you didn't get your way.

Thanks, but I don't want to be in the same tent with zombies and trump supporters.  Oh, wait, that's redundant.

Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain.

Offline Mechanicos

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,350
Re: Defeated anti-Trump delegates vow trouble during the convention
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2016, 05:21:38 pm »
That's the issue.  He hasn't won.  That's the problem that seems to make the Trump supporters nervous and the Trump not-supporters angry. 

He may win it in the convention, but much of that win will be attributable to repetition of "he won".  Say it often enough and apparently people will just roll over and say "uncle".
So which other candidate won over 50% in the Primary? I think I see the flaw in this argument.
Trump is for America First.
"Crooked Hillary Clinton is the Secretary of the Status Quo – and wherever Hillary Clinton goes, corruption and scandal follow." D. Trump 7/11/16

Did you know that the word ‘gullible’ is not in the dictionary?

Isaiah 54:17

Offline Sanguine

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,986
  • Gender: Female
  • Ex-member
Re: Defeated anti-Trump delegates vow trouble during the convention
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2016, 05:25:53 pm »
So which other candidate won over 50% in the Primary? I think I see the flaw in this argument.

Exactly!  None.  So it should go to the convention and be hammered out.  Not just assume that one of the "under 50%'s" is the winner.  You either win, fair and square, or the convention hammers it out.  And, if you don't win, fair and square, the delegates aren't bound.

Offline Mechanicos

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,350
Re: Defeated anti-Trump delegates vow trouble during the convention
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2016, 05:33:20 pm »
Exactly!  None.  So it should go to the convention and be hammered out.  Not just assume that one of the "under 50%'s" is the winner.  You either win, fair and square, or the convention hammers it out.  And, if you don't win, fair and square, the delegates aren't bound.
Lets do the thought experiment. All the establishment has to do to ensure no candidate ever can get over 50 percent is load up the candidate count running - like here - with 17-20 candidates since its simple math. Thus eliminating the voters from having any say in anything that happens. Is that what is being argued?
Trump is for America First.
"Crooked Hillary Clinton is the Secretary of the Status Quo – and wherever Hillary Clinton goes, corruption and scandal follow." D. Trump 7/11/16

Did you know that the word ‘gullible’ is not in the dictionary?

Isaiah 54:17

Offline Sanguine

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,986
  • Gender: Female
  • Ex-member
Re: Defeated anti-Trump delegates vow trouble during the convention
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2016, 05:53:22 pm »
Lets do the thought experiment. All the establishment has to do to ensure no candidate ever can get over 50 percent is load up the candidate count running - like here - with 17-20 candidates since its simple math. Thus eliminating the voters from having any say in anything that happens. Is that what is being argued?

Mech, this is not and was never intended to be a democracy.  The GOP picks the GOP candidate. So, yes, if they want to "eliminate voters" they are well within their rights to do so.  We can either support them or not.

Now, as for the GOPe or whatever you want to call them, they clearly have interests that run counter to yours and my interests.  Not arguing that. 

And, as for "the voters from having any say in anything that happens" they tend to act in their own perceived self interests also and of late they haven't exactly been the best decision makers as to what is best for the most of us.  Or, maybe they have: they and their "betters" within the Beltway have conspired to spend massively here and now and put most of the burden on generations not yet able to vote or even yet born.  Damn, that's the very definition of watching out for our personal self interest, isn't it?  Put the burdens off on someone else!

Which gets us to the heart of the matter:  all of the above is true and lamentable.  The only way to counter the above is to have someone in this leadership position who understands the whats, hows and whys of a Republic, understands and honors the Constitution and is willing to buck all of these self-interests, perceived or actual, to work towards re-institution the rule of law in this nation.  And, that's what has so many of us so perturbed.  No, we're not perturbed - we're furious.  For the first time in many, many years we had a candidate who fit the bill.  And....yet, here we are - again.

Offline Mechanicos

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,350
Re: Defeated anti-Trump delegates vow trouble during the convention
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2016, 05:56:49 pm »
Mech, this is not and was never intended to be a democracy.  The GOP picks the GOP candidate. So, yes, if they want to "eliminate voters" they are well within their rights to do so.  We can either support them or not.

Now, as for the GOPe or whatever you want to call them, they clearly have interests that run counter to yours and my interests.  Not arguing that. 

And, as for "the voters from having any say in anything that happens" they tend to act in their own perceived self interests also and of late they haven't exactly been the best decision makers as to what is best for the most of us.  Or, maybe they have: they and their "betters" within the Beltway have conspired to spend massively here and now and put most of the burden on generations not yet able to vote or even yet born.  Damn, that's the very definition of watching out for our personal self interest, isn't it?  Put the burdens off on someone else!

Which gets us to the heart of the matter:  all of the above is true and lamentable.  The only way to counter the above is to have someone in this leadership position who understands the whats, hows and whys of a Republic, understands and honors the Constitution and is willing to buck all of these self-interests, perceived or actual, to work towards re-institution the rule of law in this nation.  And, that's what has so many of us so perturbed.  No, we're not perturbed - we're furious.  For the first time in many, many years we had a candidate who fit the bill.  And....yet, here we are - again.
Delegates are not Representatives. There is law defining what a delegate is and its not a free agent unless the principle says that in the agreement. Your argument is only for representatives, not delegates. Hence the binding.
Trump is for America First.
"Crooked Hillary Clinton is the Secretary of the Status Quo – and wherever Hillary Clinton goes, corruption and scandal follow." D. Trump 7/11/16

Did you know that the word ‘gullible’ is not in the dictionary?

Isaiah 54:17

Offline Sanguine

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,986
  • Gender: Female
  • Ex-member
Re: Defeated anti-Trump delegates vow trouble during the convention
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2016, 06:02:03 pm »
Delegates are not Representatives. There is law defining what a delegate is and its not a free agent unless the principle says that in the agreement. Your argument is only for representatives, not delegates. Hence the binding.

Mech, you're making me sad.  You totally avoided all of the important stuff and went to semantics.  Please reread what I wrote, with an open mind. 

geronl

  • Guest
Re: Defeated anti-Trump delegates vow trouble during the convention
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2016, 06:17:06 pm »
They need to make as much trouble for the usurper as they possibly can.

They need to boo loudly when he is introduced too.

Offline Mechanicos

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,350
Re: Defeated anti-Trump delegates vow trouble during the convention
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2016, 06:18:10 pm »
Mech, you're making me sad.  You totally avoided all of the important stuff and went to semantics.  Please reread what I wrote, with an open mind.
I saw it. The issue I had was the inherent assumption that the 14 million voters who voted for Trump were somehow inferior - either in core conservative beliefs, information, intelligence, etc. - to the much smaller number of anti-Trump people, who but for its Open Border's leadership is mainly Cruz supporters. There is nothing objective supporting such an assumption.

We looked at Cruz and rejected him. Millions of good conservatives did so...

Trump is for America First.
"Crooked Hillary Clinton is the Secretary of the Status Quo – and wherever Hillary Clinton goes, corruption and scandal follow." D. Trump 7/11/16

Did you know that the word ‘gullible’ is not in the dictionary?

Isaiah 54:17

geronl

  • Guest
Re: Defeated anti-Trump delegates vow trouble during the convention
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2016, 06:18:34 pm »
I think you're implying Trump won fair and square.    A laughable assertion.

I completely agree. The system was rigged for a fake like Trump

Offline INVAR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,961
  • Gender: Male
  • Dread To Tread
    • Sword At The Ready
Re: Defeated anti-Trump delegates vow trouble during the convention
« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2016, 06:37:00 pm »
Real Constitutional Conservatives do not have a party or representation in D.C. PERIOD.

Time to let the dead bury their own dead and look to yourselves and your own interests.

The Republican Party and the Democrat party are both hostile enemies of liberty and the Constitution working for the sole power of the state and a dictatorship in the executive.  They both need to be considered the enemies they are.

The sycophants for Trump are going to continue to spin and lie and redefine the Constitution and Conservatism to fit their mob-lofted goals of making their prince a caesar.   They will continue to paint Trump as another Reagan when he is at best Hillary's Stalking Horse and at worst….. the vindictive petty tyrant we think he is already giving signals he will be.

I will say this again and let it sink in, because if it doesn't now, it will sink in much later when no one can argue the fact and little can be done to stop what will happen to you and yours.

You cannot impose law upon the lawless as they are a law unto themselves and law is whatever they deem it to be. 

You cannot arrest or stop tyrants and tyranny via civil means.

Liberty exists outside the bounds of corrupted and evil institutions of men and as such this government, these parties have no authority over what God gifted you.  All they have is guns they will put to your head and those of your children.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2016, 06:38:43 pm by INVAR »
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Right_in_Virginia

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 80,583
Re: Defeated anti-Trump delegates vow trouble during the convention
« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2016, 06:44:11 pm »
I think you're implying Trump won fair and square.    A laughable assertion.

Yes, Trump won fair and square. 



Online Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 57,383
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: Defeated anti-Trump delegates vow trouble during the convention
« Reply #38 on: July 16, 2016, 06:49:59 pm »
TRUMP = GOP-E
Yep. The curtain is getting pulled aside even now. The GOPe said early on they were less afraid of Trump 'because they could make deals with him'; OTOH, Cruz made their Depends soggy because he'd stand on principle. Now the mask is coming off.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online mystery-ak

  • Owner
  • Administrator
  • ******
  • Posts: 386,155
  • Let's Go Brandon!
Re: Defeated anti-Trump delegates vow trouble during the convention
« Reply #39 on: July 16, 2016, 06:53:12 pm »
Quote from Axel:  There's room for you in the tent, but not if you're going to act like a spoiled child because you didn't get your way.

Thanks, but I don't want to be in the same tent with zombies and trump supporters.  Oh, wait, that's redundant.

Well that's a new one...zombies.....come on now..
Proud Supporter of Tunnel to Towers
Support the USO
Democrat Party...the Party of Infanticide

“Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.”
-Matthew 6:34

Online Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 57,383
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: Defeated anti-Trump delegates vow trouble during the convention
« Reply #40 on: July 16, 2016, 06:58:07 pm »
The Reason your side is going nowhere is because the leadership of it is more disliked than Trump. Its the Open Border Cheap Labor Establishment and Liberals. Pretty dammed hard to support the anti-Trump movement when its leaders are opposed to building a wall, promote sanctuary cities and are for importing more Jihad - so as to line their own pockets.
Where does that nonsense come from? Pretty hard to build a wall in the middle of a river. Not objecting to a barrier along the border, where feasible, but some places it won't work so well.

Sanctuary cities should be de-funded until they comply with Federal Immigration laws. No one wants more jihad. I'm not sure what you have been using for an information source, but it should be next to the old sears catalog in the privy.

Considering many (but perhaps not all) nevertrump folks are former Cruz supporters, those are some strange allegations about policy.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline INVAR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,961
  • Gender: Male
  • Dread To Tread
    • Sword At The Ready
Re: Defeated anti-Trump delegates vow trouble during the convention
« Reply #41 on: July 16, 2016, 06:58:35 pm »
Well that's a new one...zombies.....come on now..

Yes… zombies.

Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Online Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 57,383
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: Defeated anti-Trump delegates vow trouble during the convention
« Reply #42 on: July 16, 2016, 07:07:10 pm »
Personnaly I would like to see the entire method of electing a nominee done away with. Scrap the whole damn thing. One big reason using my state of WA as an example, by the time we get to vote in the primary, We have only one name left on the ballot. All the other  choices where eliminated by sates on the east coast. How fair is that?
   If there are 17 people running, all states should have the opportunity to vote on all 17, then eliminate all but the top 4 or 5.     We have unreliable polls and TV stations holding debates decide our potential nominees for us then.
I would like to see a closed free-for-all primary (all states at the same time) to eliminate all but three or four 'front runners', then have a runoff after debates and campaigns, with the delegates applied proportionally. I know it would be more expensive, but I think it would work better.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Victoria33

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,457
  • Gender: Female
Re: Defeated anti-Trump delegates vow trouble during the convention
« Reply #43 on: July 16, 2016, 07:08:18 pm »
That would depend on your definition of Fair and Square.  Like so much else, Trump and his supporters have their own definitions.  I am for all sorts of havoc at the Convention.  We should at least protest this ridiculous candidate and not go down without a fight.

If enough delegates abstained from voting on the first ballot, Trump would not have enough delegates to be ordained the candidate, and another ballot or ballots would be taken until a nominated candidate had enough delegates to win.

Offline Sanguine

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,986
  • Gender: Female
  • Ex-member
Re: Defeated anti-Trump delegates vow trouble during the convention
« Reply #44 on: July 16, 2016, 07:11:08 pm »
I saw it. The issue I had was the inherent assumption that the 14 million voters who voted for Trump were somehow inferior - either in core conservative beliefs, information, intelligence, etc. - to the much smaller number of anti-Trump people, who but for its Open Border's leadership is mainly Cruz supporters. There is nothing objective supporting such an assumption.

We looked at Cruz and rejected him. Millions of good conservatives did so...

OK, if it's numbers that impress you:  Cruz lost because he didn't get enough votes, AND TRUMP LOST because he didn't get enough votes.

As for the "Open Border's leadership is mainly Cruz supporters" that's vicious nonsense and you know it.  I don't know why you keep holding onto those lies like Linus and his well-worn blankie.

Quote
We looked at Cruz and rejected him.

Yep, and all he stood for.  That is what has revealed this chasm between Trump supporters and Constitutional conservatives.  I'm not sure it's bridgeable.

Quote
Millions of good conservatives did so...

You, yourself, made the argument that the GOPe had the great number of candidates running to dilute the results.  If it worked that way for Trump in your mind, same of true of Cruz. 


Online Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 57,383
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: Defeated anti-Trump delegates vow trouble during the convention
« Reply #45 on: July 16, 2016, 07:24:06 pm »
It's getting more difficult to separate the #NeverTrump group from your garden variety liberal. They certainly have learned how to protest fruitlessly and have mastered the ad hominem attack. The delegates need to accept the fact that they lost. They're not any different from delusional #stillsanders supporters or the #remain voters from the UK. There's room for you in the tent, but not if you're going to act like a spoiled child because you didn't get your way.
Oh, protesting makes one a liberal.  :silly:
Maybe you should read the signs.
Principles don't mean anything? I could provide a very long list of differences, but If you don't understand that, perhaps that would be a waste of time.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline INVAR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,961
  • Gender: Male
  • Dread To Tread
    • Sword At The Ready
Re: Defeated anti-Trump delegates vow trouble during the convention
« Reply #46 on: July 16, 2016, 07:55:43 pm »
Yep, and all he stood for.  That is what has revealed this chasm between Trump supporters and Constitutional conservatives.  I'm not sure it's bridgeable.

The most salient point in your excellent reply.

No.  It's not bridgeable.  They have ridiculed and castigated our principles.  Citing them as childish and irrelevant.  They have declared us enemies, traitors even. 

There is no possible reconciliation with that kind of mindset that has thrown in with a man whose fruits are anathema to everything that maintains liberty.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Texas Yellow Rose

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,436
  • Gender: Female
  • Native Texan
Re: Defeated anti-Trump delegates vow trouble during the convention
« Reply #47 on: July 16, 2016, 11:57:09 pm »
Exactly!  None.  So it should go to the convention and be hammered out.  Not just assume that one of the "under 50%'s" is the winner.  You either win, fair and square, or the convention hammers it out.  And, if you don't win, fair and square, the delegates aren't bound.

 blij26

geronl

  • Guest
Re: Defeated anti-Trump delegates vow trouble during the convention
« Reply #48 on: July 16, 2016, 11:59:56 pm »
Use the Australian ballot in primaries

Offline Sanguine

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,986
  • Gender: Female
  • Ex-member
Re: Defeated anti-Trump delegates vow trouble during the convention
« Reply #49 on: July 17, 2016, 01:05:48 am »
Use the Australian ballot in primaries

Say what?