Author Topic: Priebus Meets Privately with Mike Lee, Never Trump Leaders to Discuss Procedural Compromise  (Read 3667 times)

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Offline r9etb

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But the open primaries are still an abomination whose eventual mischief could have
been predicted when they first began to fester.

While I tend to agree with you as a matter of party politics, the idea of an open primary nevertheless addresses a real issue.  Namely, anyone who does not choose to affiliate with any party, therefore has no say in selecting the pool of candidates eligible for election in November. 

In a two-party system this can be a real problem, especially when (as now) most people formally identify with neither party, but will nevertheless effectively be forced to choose between those parties' candidates in the general election. 

I don't have a solution to this, but I figure it's only fair to point out the legitimate argument for an open primary.

Online Bigun

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While I tend to agree with you as a matter of party politics, the idea of an open primary nevertheless addresses a real issue.  Namely, anyone who does not choose to affiliate with any party, therefore has no say in selecting the pool of candidates eligible for election in November. 

In a two-party system this can be a real problem, especially when (as now) most people formally identify with neither party, but will nevertheless effectively be forced to choose between those parties' candidates in the general election. 

I don't have a solution to this, but I figure it's only fair to point out the legitimate argument for an open primary.

I don't think that is sufficient reason to continue with open primaries and will assure you that if we end them those people who currently don't identify with either party will have to begin looking at their hold cards. Ending them will also greatly alter the dynamics potential candidates for all offices have to look at.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2016, 08:19:41 pm by Bigun »
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Offline Fishrrman

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Title:
"Priebus Meets Privately with Mike Lee, Never Trump Leaders to Discuss Procedural Compromise"

I sense the message will go something like:
"If any of you EVER expect to get financial or other support from us again, you better pipe down and accept what's comin' ...."

Sounds about right to me...

Offline txradioguy

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Title:
"Priebus Meets Privately with Mike Lee, Never Trump Leaders to Discuss Procedural Compromise"

I sense the message will go something like:
"If any of you EVER expect to get financial or other support from us again, you better pipe down and accept what's comin' ...."

Sounds about right to me...

Yeah because that's the way to avoid having a floor mutiny against your presumptive nominee...go full Tony Soprano on them.

 :silly:
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Offline musiclady

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Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

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Offline sinkspur

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Title:
"Priebus Meets Privately with Mike Lee, Never Trump Leaders to Discuss Procedural Compromise"

I sense the message will go something like:
"If any of you EVER expect to get financial or other support from us again, you better pipe down and accept what's comin' ...."

Sounds about right to me...

These are delegates who get no money from the RNC. And Mike Lee is not spooked by Reince Priebus.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline EasyAce

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While I tend to agree with you as a matter of party politics, the idea of an open primary nevertheless addresses a real issue.  Namely, anyone who does not choose to affiliate with any party, therefore has no say in selecting the pool of candidates eligible for election in November. 

In a two-party system this can be a real problem, especially when (as now) most people formally identify with neither party, but will nevertheless effectively be forced to choose between those parties' candidates in the general election. 

I don't have a solution to this, but I figure it's only fair to point out the legitimate argument for an open primary.

I understand that argument. But it is likewise fair to point out that those who chose not to affiliate bear the consequences
of that choice just as those who affiliate do, and for a very long time the unaffiliated accepted the consequence that
their lack of formal affiliation came with a few negatives including their inability to help pick any party's candidates.

Maybe the solution should have been not a pure across the board open primary but, rather, allowing only
the unaffiliated to vote for party candidates if they so choose---making that a written rule with the condicil that
there can be and will be no voters affiliated to one party allowed to vote for another party's candidates. That
would have preserved the integrity of the parties' primares (I say again: Democrats who want anyone other than Democrats
picking their candidates, or Republicans who want anyone other than Republicans picking their candidates, or third
parties who want anyone other than those parties picking their candidates) have rocks in their heads) while allowing
the formally unaffiliated a primary voice.


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Offline r9etb

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Yeah because that's the way to avoid having a floor mutiny against your presumptive nominee...go full Tony Soprano on them.

Hey, it worked for Stalin....

geronl

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While I tend to agree with you as a matter of party politics, the idea of an open primary nevertheless addresses a real issue.  Namely, anyone who does not choose to affiliate with any party, therefore has no say in selecting the pool of candidates eligible for election in November. 

If they want a primary vote they should join a party, it's free and takes very little time and energy. There is no excuse.

geronl

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Maybe the solution should have been not a pure across the board open primary but, rather, allowing only
the unaffiliated to vote for party candidates if they so choose--

Nope. It is too easy and quick to change parties or to move to unaffiliated. Some states allow same-day registration!! People can switch parties, vote and be back to their other party in a span of a couple days.

It's not workable.

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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I would propose two changes: 1) have all voting occur on the same day and 2) proportional voting only.

Offline r9etb

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I understand that argument. But it is likewise fair to point out that those who chose not to affiliate bear the consequences
of that choice just as those who affiliate do, and for a very long time the unaffiliated accepted the consequence that
their lack of formal affiliation came with a few negatives including their inability to help pick any party's candidates.

The underlying assumption being that elections should only be between representatives of specific political parties.  I'm not sure that paradigm is even workable anymore, especially in a two-party sense.

Quote
Maybe the solution should have been not a pure across the board open primary but, rather, allowing only
the unaffiliated to vote for party candidates if they so choose---making that a written rule with the codicil that
there can be and will be no voters affiliated to one party allowed to vote for another party's candidates.

That actually sounds workable.  Plus which, including unaffiliated would tend to mitigate the tendency toward extremes that has characterized both parties, to their and our detriment.   But that does intrude on the rights of a party to come up with candidates.

Now let's ask a different question: is there a legitimate justification for primaries at all, in the way we currently run them?  By this I mean, why must we rely on the electoral machinery of government to manage the strictly partisan endeavor of candidate selection?  Especially these days, why can't parties manage this function on their own, without government involvement?

As I see it, the only true government interest is in setting minimum standards for being on the ballot in the general election.  Registered parties can do so; and getting on the ballot by petition could be another option.

Offline r9etb

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If they want a primary vote they should join a party, it's free and takes very little time and energy. There is no excuse.

Unless both parties suck.  Which they more or less do, right now.

Offline sinkspur

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I would propose two changes: 1) have all voting occur on the same day and 2) proportional voting only.

No to number one.   The horse is out of the barn on early voting.

Don't know what you mean by "proportional voting."
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline r9etb

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Don't know what you mean by "proportional voting."

I think he means, no "winner take all" primaries.

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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No to number one.   The horse is out of the barn on early voting.

Don't know what you mean by "proportional voting."

Get rid of Winner Take All.

Offline ConstitutionRose

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While I tend to agree with you as a matter of party politics, the idea of an open primary nevertheless addresses a real issue.  Namely, anyone who does not choose to affiliate with any party, therefore has no say in selecting the pool of candidates eligible for election in November. 

In a two-party system this can be a real problem, especially when (as now) most people formally identify with neither party, but will nevertheless effectively be forced to choose between those parties' candidates in the general election. 

I don't have a solution to this, but I figure it's only fair to point out the legitimate argument for an open primary.

In NC if you are registered as an Independent or Non-Affiliated, they ask you which ballot you want to vote at the polling place.  I think a way to allow non-affiliates and those who are registered to partyy which has no candidates to choose a ballot.  The same day registration stuff is a big issue.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2016, 09:19:26 pm by ConstitutionRose »
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Offline truth_seeker

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In NC if you are registered as an Independent or Non-Affiliated, they ask you which ballot you want to vote at the polling place.  I think a way to allow non-affiliates and those who are registered to partyy which has no candidates to choose a ballot.  The same day registration stuff is a big issue.
That is the way that California used to be.

Now that is the way the democrats run their primary, but the GOP primary in 2016 was entirely closed for the GOP.

Unfortunately the result is often settled by the time we get our say. But Trump did get 75% in the Calif. GOP primary, for what it is worth. Entirely closed GOP primary.

I remember in 2008 and in 2012, hearing the whining about open primaries, and the claim that they had caused the nomination of McCain and Romney. I did an in depth study and those claims were NOT born out by the actual results.

It was falsely put forth that certain states had open primaries, when they IN FACT had closed primaries, as an example.
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HonestJohn

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Considering the party starts next week, they'd bettsr get their act together right quick.

Just sayin'...

...that time isn't going to stop for this.

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Title:
"Priebus Meets Privately with Mike Lee, Never Trump Leaders to Discuss Procedural Compromise"

I sense the message will go something like:
"If any of you EVER expect to get financial or other support from us again, you better pipe down and accept what's comin' ...."

Sounds about right to me...

To me too @Fishrrman

geronl

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Unless both parties suck.  Which they more or less do, right now.

That is why we have many parties and we can have independents run too.

Parties are private clubs, only the members should choose their candidates. I have decided that I am now an independent, what the parties do internally is none of my business any more.

Offline kevindavis007

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I would propose two changes: 1) have all voting occur on the same day and 2) proportional voting only.


I like the idea of a national primary day and proportional voting, but it has to be closed.
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Offline Polly Ticks

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Dumping open primaries ought to be the number one job for all parties (why on earth should
anyone but actual Republicans be picking the Republican nominee? or anyone but actual Democrats
picking the Democratic nominee? etc.) once this convention is done.

Hear, hear!
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Offline Polly Ticks

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While I tend to agree with you as a matter of party politics, the idea of an open primary nevertheless addresses a real issue.  Namely, anyone who does not choose to affiliate with any party, therefore has no say in selecting the pool of candidates eligible for election in November. 

In a two-party system this can be a real problem, especially when (as now) most people formally identify with neither party, but will nevertheless effectively be forced to choose between those parties' candidates in the general election. 

I don't have a solution to this, but I figure it's only fair to point out the legitimate argument for an open primary.


Pffft.  I am not on the board of directors at Coca-Cola, and therefore I shouldn't have a say in their internal concerns such as whether or not the abomination that was "New Coke" should be resurrected. 

Not to be completely dismissive of your point, but those folks do have recourse.  Get involved.  Work to change things so that you CAN identify with one party or another.  It's imperfect, but most of life is.

Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good, too. -Yogi Berra

Offline EasyAce

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Pffft.  I am not on the board of directors at Coca-Cola, and therefore I shouldn't have a say in their internal concerns such as whether or not the abomination that was "New Coke" should be resurrected.

I'd have chosen a different comparison if I were you. Believe it or not, folks, it was the general
public that had the original say as to whether the original Coke should be resurrected. It took a mere
three months for then-Coke chairman Roberto Goizueta to eat humble pie after the uproar
went nuclear:

Today, we have two messages to deliver to the American public. First, to those of you who are
drinking Coca-Cola with its great new taste, our thanks . . . But there is a second group of consumers
to whom we want to speak today and our message to this group is simple: We have heard you.


And Goizueta's COO Daniel Keough ate a slice enough to make Goizueta's look like a tiny sample:

What on earth brought us to the decision to bring back the classic taste which we so calmly
abandoned back in April? . . . The simple fact is that all the time and money and skill poured into
consumer research could not measure or reveal the deep and abiding attachment to original (Coke)
. . . Some critics will say Coca-Cola made a marketing mistake. Some cynics will say that we planned
the whole thing. The truth is, we are not that dumb and we are not that smart.


You can get the full story---New York called it the story of how Coke blundered into one of
the greatest marketing triumphs ever---in Thomas Oliver's The Real Coke, The Real Story.
There are times when the public ends up having a big say in how a given company does
business, even if they're not on the boards of directors. (p.s. New Coke, which was subsequently
re-branded Coke II, died a quiet death in 2002. Its death was a lot more quiet than its birth. The
clamour to resurrect Coke II since has been an even more deafening silence . . .)
« Last Edit: July 14, 2016, 10:55:22 pm by EasyAce »


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