Trump just caved on gun control

[bob434]

I have mixed emotions about this.  On the one hand you have the 2nd amendment, which is the "right to bear arms".  Ok what exactly is that?  At the time it was written, they referred to pistols and rifles....not sure many citizens owned a cannon.  So basically they were saying pistols and rifles.

At the time of writing, the founders were smart enough to realize that arms were3 evolving and would continue to evolve- when they wrote "right to bear arms"- that is precisely what they meant- and the reason they meant it was so that civilians would be protected against a government that decided to go rogue/totalitarian on them- they knew that such a government would be heavily armed, well staffed, and able to excert tremendous pressure on society IF the society was not equally as armed and able to defend themselves against such a tyrannical government-

The whole purpose for us excapign england and elsewhere to come here was to get out from under the oppression of government- and the only way to do that was to arm the citizens

I hope you'll take hte time to read through the following quotes by the founding fathers to get a sense of just how seriously they took the issue of "right to bear arms".

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776

"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks." - Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 19, 1785

"The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to to John Cartwright, 5 June 1824

"On every occasion [of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, 12 June 1823

"I enclose you a list of the killed, wounded, and captives of the enemy from the commencement of hostilities at Lexington in April, 1775, until November, 1777, since which there has been no event of any consequence ... I think that upon the whole it has been about one half the number lost by them, in some instances more, but in others less. This difference is ascribed to our superiority in taking aim when we fire; every soldier in our army having been intimate with his gun from his infancy."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Giovanni Fabbroni, June 8, 1778

“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

"To disarm the people...s the most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, referencing advice given to the British Parliament by Pennsylvania governor Sir William Keith, The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adooption of the Federal Constitution, June 14, 1788

"I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers."
- George Mason, Address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 4, 1788

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops."
- Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, October 10, 1787

"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of."
- James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country."
- James Madison, I Annals of Congress 434, June 8, 1789

"...the ultimate authority, wherever the derivative may be found, resides in the people alone..."
- James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788

"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
- William Pitt (the Younger), Speech in the House of Commons, November 18, 1783

There are many many more such statements- and they show a clear intent to arm citizens to the hilt in order to protect us agaisnt a rogue oppression by an out of control government IF the need should arise

[geronl]

If folks on a terrorist no-fly list can be banned from boarding a plane,  why cannot they be banned from buying guns?

They can still fly, they just get the full, rubber glove scrutiny. As they watch Muslims in burqa's board without a second look

[bob434]

No list is going to stop Jihadists from getting weapons to kill us.

Lists are only going to stop law abiding American citizens from being able to buy, keep and bear arms.

PERIOD.

Precisely, which is why Thomas Jefferson said:

"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
- Thomas Jefferson, Commonplace Book (quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria), 1774-1776

It is a very sad thing that we have LOST this kind of common sense reasoning in this country

[INVAR]

What (Trump) is proposing is to take away the fundamental second amendment right from folks based on a beauracrat's  say-so.

That's it, in a

[skeeter]

Not if due process is employed.   It's not impossible,  the mechanisms exist.   But it is madness to refuse to consider limiting the ability of known terrorist sympathizers to get guns.

Of course its madness, if everyone is honest about their intentions and we all share the same definition of 'terrorism'.

But you just know the bureaucrats will keep the definition as vague as they possibly can. This is a useful tool for them, they will not squander the opportunity to use it towards their goal of removing what they see as the primary existential threat to themselves.

And that ain't Islamic terrorism.

[sitetest]

If folks on a terrorist no-fly list can be banned from boarding a plane,  why cannot they be banned from buying guns?

You don't have a fundamental right, enshrined in the Constitution,  to board a commercial airliner.  You do have such a right to bear arms, which may only be denied upon the conviction of a crime, in a court of law, with a right to counsel, and the right to face one's accusers.

That is due process.

[sinkspur]

Not if due process is employed.   It's not impossible,  the mechanisms exist.   But it is madness to refuse to consider limiting the ability of known terrorist sympathizers to get guns.

It's all in the details.  Who is a terrorist sympathizer? 

Did you know there are a million names on the no-fly list?  And many of the names are simply wrongly listed.  Stephen Hayes of the Weekly Standard was on the no-fly list for three years.

It's just a dangerous precedent to set when the government can arbitrarily put a name on a list.

[driftdiver]

I have mixed emotions about this.  On the one hand you have the 2nd amendment, which is the "right to bear arms".  Ok what exactly is that?  At the time it was written, they referred to pistols and rifles....not sure many citizens owned a cannon.  So basically they were saying pistols and rifles.

Ok...here we are in 2016 with all kinds of weapons available on the open market.  What should be legal and what should be illegal?  Can I own a hellfire missile?...doubtful.  So what exactly can we own and how is this determined. 

I've fired an "assault rifle" and it was fun to shoot, but not practical for hunting, unless you want to slaughter hogs, which may not be such a bad idea.  Personally I don't own one and would likely never buy one, just because it's not practical.  If you are looking to protect yourself from your overreaching government I could see owning one.

If someone breaks into my house at night....the last thing I'd be looking for is my "assault rifle", it would be my loaded handgun.  They make fun toys.....but.......  Like I say, I have mixed emotions about them......

The right to bear arms exists despite your ignorance of its meaning.  A meaning which is well documented and defined   There is a significant difference between a hellfire missile and an "assault" weapon.  The purpose of the Second Amendment is to limit the government from allowing citizens to bear arms to defend against an overreaching government.  Its not for hunting or target shooting.

An AR-15 is actually an ideal weapon for home defense.  They are easy to use, dependable and just powerful enough to stop an attacker.   Numerous tests have show the 5.56 round is very appropriate for use inside a dwelling.  They have stopping power but less over penetration than even a 9mm, 45ACP or even a shotgun with 00.

The ar-15 round tends to break up after going through sheetrock.   Tests I've seen found the ar-15 round wouldn't go thru 3 layers of sheetrock in simulated walls.    All the other calibers went through at least 4 layers.

[Idiot]

At the time of writing, the founders were smart enough to realize that arms were3 evolving and would continue to evolve- when they wrote "right to bear arms"- that is precisely what they meant- and the reason they meant it was so that civilians would be protected against a government that decided to go rogue/totalitarian on them- they knew that such a government would be heavily armed, well staffed, and able to excert tremendous pressure on society IF the society was not equally as armed and able to defend themselves against such a tyrannical government-

The whole purpose for us excapign england and elsewhere to come here was to get out from under the oppression of government- and the only way to do that was to arm the citizens

I hope you'll take hte time to read through the following quotes by the founding fathers to get a sense of just how seriously they took the issue of "right to bear arms".

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 20, 1787

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
- Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776

"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks." - Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 19, 1785

"The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to to John Cartwright, 5 June 1824

"On every occasion [of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, 12 June 1823

"I enclose you a list of the killed, wounded, and captives of the enemy from the commencement of hostilities at Lexington in April, 1775, until November, 1777, since which there has been no event of any consequence ... I think that upon the whole it has been about one half the number lost by them, in some instances more, but in others less. This difference is ascribed to our superiority in taking aim when we fire; every soldier in our army having been intimate with his gun from his infancy."
- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Giovanni Fabbroni, June 8, 1778

“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

"To disarm the people...s the most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, referencing advice given to the British Parliament by Pennsylvania governor Sir William Keith, The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adooption of the Federal Constitution, June 14, 1788

"I ask who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers."
- George Mason, Address to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 4, 1788

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops."
- Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, October 10, 1787

"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of."
- James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country."
- James Madison, I Annals of Congress 434, June 8, 1789

"...the ultimate authority, wherever the derivative may be found, resides in the people alone..."
- James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788

"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
- William Pitt (the Younger), Speech in the House of Commons, November 18, 1783

There are many many more such statements- and they show a clear intent to arm citizens to the hilt in order to protect us agaisnt a rogue oppression by an out of control government IF the need should arise

Thank you sir.  I have been duly chastised.   

[kidd]

The Constitution Party's position on gun control:

The 2nd Amendment strictly limits any interference with gun ownership by saying:

“A well regulated Militia, the being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

The right to bear arms is inherent in the right of self defense, defense of the family, and defense against tyranny, conferred on the individual and the community by our Creator to safeguard life, liberty, and property, as well as to help preserve the independence of the nation.

The right to keep and bear arms is guaranteed by the Second Amendment to the Constitution; it may not properly be infringed upon or denied.

The Constitution Party upholds the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms. We oppose attempts to prohibit ownership of guns by law-abiding citizens, and stand against all laws which would require the registration of guns or ammunition.

We emphasize that when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have them. In such circumstances, the peaceful citizen’s protection against the criminal would be seriously jeopardized.

We call for the repeal of all federal firearms legislation, beginning with Federal Firearms Act of 1968.

We call for the rescinding of all executive orders, the prohibition of any future executive orders, and the prohibition of treaty ratification which would in any way limit the right to keep and bear arms.

http://www.constitutionparty.com/our-principles/platform-and-resolutions/

[ScottinVA]

The inmates at the FR asylum are pinging over this one...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3440460/posts

[skeeter]

The inmates at the FR asylum are pinging over this one...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3440460/posts

No worries - Harley Lady is on hand to shoot anyone who falters.

[Gov Bean Counter]

No worries - Harley Lady is on hand to shoot anyone who falters.

...and Harley Lady still thinks she is going to have Trump's next baby too.

[roamer_1]

I have mixed emotions about this. On the one hand you have the 2nd amendment, which is the "right to bear arms".  Ok what exactly is that? 

Nothing could be clearer. The intention was to preserve the right of the citizenry to be armed in order to put down a tyrannical government... In the face of a standing army (the main reason the BoR was enacted)

At the time it was written, they referred to pistols and rifles....not sure many citizens owned a cannon.  So basically they were saying pistols and rifles.

No, merchant ships, townships and merchant forts (indian country) owned cannons.

Ok...here we are in 2016 with all kinds of weapons available on the open market.  What should be legal and what should be illegal?  Can I own a hellfire missile?...doubtful.  So what exactly can we own and how is this determined. 

Not that I am advocating, but a distributed armory would be very hard to overcome... The mis-attributed, but still valid Yamamoto quote about a 'rifle behind every blade of grass' springs to mind.

I've fired an "assault rifle" and it was fun to shoot, but not practical for hunting, unless you want to slaughter hogs, which may not be such a bad idea.  Personally I don't own one and would likely never buy one, just because it's not practical.  If you are looking to protect yourself from your overreaching government I could see owning one.

There's a little button on the side that turns it into a semi-automatic rifle - a .308 M-16 would be fine for hunting, notwithstanding it's other options... If it weren't for being illegal, I dare say there would be even better multi-purpose options available.

And let's not forget the very blurry line in the mind of liberals when it comes to the difference between full-auto and semi-auto weapons... What you think they're talking about may be very different from their intentions.

If someone breaks into my house at night....the last thing I'd be looking for is my "assault rifle", it would be my loaded handgun.  They make fun toys.....but.......  Like I say, I have mixed emotions about them......

Yeah... I would select my sawed-off 12 gauge pump... The mere 'ca-chink' of jacking the shell would cause the most determined aggressor to flee for his life. Oddly enough, the shorter the better... an illegally shortened barrel would be the most effective, with the widest scatter pattern...

Yep... for critters in the barnyard and for home defense... Sawed-off, hands down. Something which, depending upon your location, may be illegal for you to possess - poor you.

[Half Vast Conspiracy]

I have mixed emotions about this.  On the one hand you have the 2nd amendment, which is the "right to bear arms".  Ok what exactly is that?  At the time it was written, they referred to pistols and rifles....not sure many citizens owned a cannon.  So basically they were saying pistols and rifles.

@mrpotatohead

[roamer_1]

The Constitution Party's position on gun control:

http://www.constitutionparty.com/our-principles/platform-and-resolutions/

It's pretty hard for a Conservative to find anything wrong with the Constitution Party platform. Castle is going to get my vote this year - Pretty sure of that.

[Jazzhead]

It is madness to believe that a president such as Obama, or Hillary, or Trump for that matter, would not declare any political enemy as a "known terrorist sympathizer". Members of Obama's government are already on record as saying the "extreme right wing" is as dangerous as Islamic terrorism. Do you really believe they don't consider you and I members of the "extreme right wing", and therefore that we shouldn't be able to buy a gun?

I understand your concern, and agree that one's RTKBA must not be able to be extinguished on the say-so of a government bureaucrat.   Due process - including the involvement of a neutral arbitrator - is essential.

I merely note the precedent of the FISA courts,  which exist to provide due process with respect to the gathering of specific information on suspected terrorists.    Why can't the FISA courts be utilized to protect against abuse and provide due process regarding a no-buy list?   

[Half Vast Conspiracy]

Thank you sir.  I have been duly chastised
   

@bob434
@mrpotatohead

Look, if you're going to be reasonable, you're going to have to leave the internet.

[kevindavis007]

excerpt:  'plan by Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, that would let the government delay firearms sales to suspected terrorists for up to 72 hours. Under that proposal, the transaction could be halted permanently if federal officials could persuade a judge to do so during that waiting period.

The NRA has backed Cornyn's plan.'

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Trump-to-discuss-terrorism-watch-list-no-fly-ban-8199467.php

Personally I like the idea of DEPORTING anyone on that 'terror watch list'......

What if the person is a American citizen?

[geronl]

I merely note the precedent of the FISA courts,  which exist to provide due process with respect to the gathering of specific information on suspected terrorists.    Why can't the FISA courts be utilized to protect against abuse and provide due process regarding a no-buy list?

No crime or suspicion of a crime is required to be added to a no-fly list, plus it's secret and you don't even know you've been added.

[Hoodat]

Better get ready to give up your computer then, as those weren't around when the Founders wrote the First Amendment either.

You got that right.  And Madison never envisioned a printing press that could print out 50 copies of the New York Times every second.  Surely, Amendment I shouldn't apply to newspapers either.

[DCPatriot]

I have mixed emotions about this.  On the one hand you have the 2nd amendment, which is the "right to bear arms".  Ok what exactly is that?  At the time it was written, they referred to pistols and rifles....not sure many citizens owned a cannon.  So basically they were saying pistols and rifles.

Ok...here we are in 2016 with all kinds of weapons available on the open market.  What should be legal and what should be illegal?  Can I own a hellfire missile?...doubtful.  So what exactly can we own and how is this determined. 

I've fired an "assault rifle" and it was fun to shoot, but not practical for hunting, unless you want to slaughter hogs, which may not be such a bad idea.  Personally I don't own one and would likely never buy one, just because it's not practical.  If you are looking to protect yourself from your overreaching government I could see owning one.

If someone breaks into my house at night....the last thing I'd be looking for is my "assault rifle", it would be my loaded handgun.  They make fun toys.....but.......  Like I say, I have mixed emotions about them......

If the news were to be leaked....it wouldn't be reported....that the government was starting to round-up specific Conservatives based upon their posting histories on social media:

Do you want your cul-de-sac to band together with .22s...or even .357s or .45s?   Or, do you want to see every head-of household come out with an AK-47 and enough cartridges to fill a wheel barrel.  Or three?

The 2nd Amendment wasn't only to protect us from Indians and criminals.   It's to protect us from a tyrannical out-of-control government.

A government which, BTW...mandates CONSTITUTIONALLY that its citizenry take back.

[geronl]

The inmates at the FR asylum are pinging over this one...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3440460/posts

I’m not alarmed yet. I think he is doing his thing, which is to listen to all voices.

The leftover FReepers are insane. When has Trump ever listened to any voice except the ones he hears in his head....

[kevindavis007]

You got that right.  And Madison never envisioned a printing press that could print out 50 copies of the New York Times every second.  Surely, Amendment I shouldn't apply to newspapers either.

Also we better restrict bloggers.. I don't think our founders would have envision the Internet as well..

[Luis Gonzalez]

 BTT