Author Topic: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...  (Read 9574 times)

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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #50 on: June 03, 2016, 01:20:27 pm »
At family gatherings my paternal grandfather always managed to end up cursing Benito Mussolini when the discussion turned to the old country. I learned at his knee what a fascist is. And I wholeheartedly support Mr. Trump.

Dueling Gramps!

And that's the issue, of course.   People who lived back then no more agreed with each other than do people living now.

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #51 on: June 03, 2016, 01:25:29 pm »
If I was put in charge, I would install Mesaclone as Donald Trump's TBR press secretary--he's that good.  :beer:

And while I'm at it, I would appoint Maj Bill as Trump's TBR ombudsman.  :patriot:

Both members show the kind of intelligence needed to navigate the political rapids of a primary season and stay afloat.

Hey, not so fast.  I don't even know yet if i'm voting for the idiot.  Contrary to what Mesaclone said above, i don't see Trump getting better, or learining as he goes along.  If anything, the frequency of stupid statements seems to be increasing.

I just don't like bad arguments, on either side.  There are plenty of legit criticisms to be made about him without making bogus ones.  And this one is particularly pernicious because it is giving cover to the actual fascists on the left supporting Bernie.

Offline aligncare

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #52 on: June 03, 2016, 01:46:29 pm »
Hey, not so fast.  I don't even know yet if i'm voting for the idiot.  Contrary to what Mesaclone said above, i don't see Trump getting better, or learining as he goes along.  If anything, the frequency of stupid statements seems to be increasing.

I just don't like bad arguments, on either side.  There are plenty of legit criticisms to be made about him without making bogus ones.  And this one is particularly pernicious because it is giving cover to the actual fascists on the left supporting Bernie.

So, I suppose canvassing for Donald Trump is out, huh?

OK, I'll put you down as a maybe... ^-^

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #53 on: June 03, 2016, 02:06:26 pm »
So, I suppose canvassing for Donald Trump is out, huh?

OK, I'll put you down as a maybe... ^-^

I lean a different way almost every day.  Today, the goons in San Jose and those who are blaming Trump for the violence have me leaning towards voting for the guy.  But i'm confident that before the weekend is out, he'll say something that has me leaning the other way again.

This particular topic, though....if the left commits violence against dissenting views, but manages to have it blamed on the speaker because he "incited" it, that is more dangerous than any of the blowhard idiocies spouted by Trump.

Consider that these are organized activities to suppress civil rights, and the feds are doing nothing about it.  The Mayor of the city in which it is happening blames Trump.  This is Third World mob rule/Chavez type stuff, yet we have people who see only that this is another chance to get in their rhetorical shots at Trump.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2016, 03:00:01 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #54 on: June 03, 2016, 03:06:23 pm »
I lean a different way almost every day.  Today, the goons in San Jose and those who are blaming Trump for the violence have me leaning towards voting for the guy.  But i'm confident that before the weekend is out, he'll say something that has me leaning the other way again.




In what other direction may one lean?  Towards a woman who by all indications would be an actual fascist?   


Here i'll quote Agent Broyles of "Fringe".   



"Sometimes all your choices are bad.  "


‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
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Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #55 on: June 03, 2016, 03:31:51 pm »

In what other direction may one lean?  Towards a woman who by all indications would be an actual fascist?   
"Sometimes all your choices are bad.  "

Lean towards staying home.

I'm not concerned that Trump is a fascist.  I think that's wildly overblown -- he simply does not have the institutional power to effect that even if he wanted to.  I just think he's pretty ignorant of the separation of powers and so says stupid things about what he is or isn't going to do.  But I also think that if elected, he'll listen to advisors who say that he can't do something.  He's not going to order the military out to trample dissent and if he did, they wouldn't obey.

Without going into too much detail, what I worry about with him is that he'll so discredit the GOP if he takes office that the result will be an impotent 4 years, followed by a massive Democrat landslide in 2020.  I am also extremely bothered by how he trashed personally almost every GOP primary opponent, and do not want that to become acceptable conduct in future primaries.

I cannot vote for Hillary under any circumstances.  Whether I can overcome my personal distaste for how he conducted his campaign is going to depend on what Trump does between now and November to make me think he'll be significantly -- rather than marginally -- better than Hillary for the long-term.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2016, 03:32:45 pm by Maj. Bill Martin »

Offline INVAR

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #56 on: June 03, 2016, 03:53:15 pm »
You can take anyone's word for anything but that doesn't of itself give validity to a concept.

Your screed spent it's time looking at the end-result of where Mussolini and Hitler and their mobs took Fascism rather than the seeds that germinated into what resulted.  When your Political savior is stoking an atmosphere of rage and conflict with insults and derision while discussing punishing companies and forcing them to "make their damn stuff here" and talking about imposing fines on entire nations exports - I'd say the seeds are in the same genus as what Benito started planting back then.

The nearest kind of tyranny you will find in our modern setting, one that promotes group well being and oppresses individual freedom in the name of "right thinking" is what we are finding on the Far Left in America.

I'm reading the same exact crap on social media and other former Conservative sites by Trump acolytes. 

Its disgusting and unethical, and you truly should be ashamed.

Well you and your hordes of Trump worshipping supporters can come arrest me for lying about your King Presumptive and execute me for treason as they are threatening on those sites, when the time comes.

I'll be waiting.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Maj. Bill Martin

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #57 on: June 03, 2016, 04:13:34 pm »
Your screed spent it's time looking at the end-result of where Mussolini and Hitler and their mobs took Fascism rather than the seeds that germinated into what resulted. 

That's a fair point, but every seed does not become a tree.  Most die or get crowded out.

The blackshirts and brownshirts made their appearances extremely early in the careers of Mussolini and Hitler -- long before they sought elective office.  We're a few months away from electing a President, and I see zero signs of organized Trump thugs disrupting opposition rallies.  It simply isn't there.

Of course it is possible that Trump's rhetoric will be the seeds that lead to the same end, but it is also entirely possible that they will not.  There are a lot of institutional/principled factors in this country that makes it very, very different from the Italy and Germany of the 1920's.

If you're really looking for fascism to come to this country, I don't think it would follow the model of Mussolini or Hitler anyway, with street thugs propelling someone to power and supporting the creation of a dictatorship.  It is far more likely to come with a lawful election, followed by control over the courts and legislature.  It will be a creeping "legal" form of fascism coupled with that government turning a blind eye to street thugs who silence opposition.  That could happen in this country, even with a military not disposed towards fascism.

And again, I don't see Trump having anything close to the potential for doing that -- he simply does not have the institutional support in the courts, state legislatures, or Congress.  But Hillary/Bernie do, and that's what we are actually seeing right now before our own eyes.  That's not just a seed -- that's a damn sapling at this point.

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #58 on: June 03, 2016, 04:23:19 pm »
Lean towards staying home.


"None of the above"  is not an available choice. 




I'm not concerned that Trump is a fascist.  I think that's wildly overblown -- he simply does not have the institutional power to effect that even if he wanted to. I just think he's pretty ignorant of the separation of powers and so says stupid things about what he is or isn't going to do. 

I agree.   He's not black, so he can't get away with being ignorant and dictatorial.    He will be constrained in a manner that this ignorant fool  we have now never was.   



  But I also think that if elected, he'll listen to advisors who say that he can't do something.  He's not going to order the military out to trample dissent and if he did, they wouldn't obey.


I agree.   He won't have the backing of the media or the glitterati.   Obama has been a far greater threat in this regard. 





Without going into too much detail, what I worry about with him is that he'll so discredit the GOP if he takes office that the result will be an impotent 4 years, followed by a massive Democrat landslide in 2020.  I am also extremely bothered by how he trashed personally almost every GOP primary opponent, and do not want that to become acceptable conduct in future primaries.


I have no concerns about him discrediting the GOP.   In my opinion that already happened during the Obama fiasco.   

Yes,  Trump is a vulgarian,   but such is what this nation has become.   Even members of our own group have now embraced the vulgarian because they are so angry with GOPe people who can't or won't fight their way out of a paper bag.   

Whatever else you can say about Trump,   he fights.   (As Lincoln said of Grant.)   



I cannot vote for Hillary under any circumstances.  Whether I can overcome my personal distaste for how he conducted his campaign is going to depend on what Trump does between now and November to make me think he'll be significantly -- rather than marginally -- better than Hillary for the long-term.


I don't even understand this argument.   Hillary would do every thing in her power to be a dictator.   Hillary would be exactly wrong in every policy decision she would make.    Hillary would deliberately and methodically activate the tools and powers of government to harass and destroy us.   

This has been her modus operandi in every instance in which she has had power.   Do you know she made stuff up during the Watergate investigation?   All she cared about was getting Nixon,   and she simply did not care about rights or ethics in doing so.   


She has no moral foundation.   She has no conscience to check her behavior.   She will be like Obama,  but with more hate and more vindictiveness.   


Trump is not even in the same class of horror as is Hillary.   I cannot grasp a comparison between him and her.   



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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #59 on: June 03, 2016, 04:30:36 pm »
Your screed spent it's time looking at the end-result of where Mussolini and Hitler and their mobs took Fascism rather than the seeds that germinated into what resulted. 


And with this part I agree.   One cannot know for sure how bad a wannabe fascist will be until they've been given power. 





When your Political savior is stoking an atmosphere of rage and conflict with insults and derision while discussing punishing companies and forcing them to "make their damn stuff here" and talking about imposing fines on entire nations exports - I'd say the seeds are in the same genus as what Benito started planting back then.


As compared to Hillary?   Are you kidding?   Trump is a puffball compared to scheming hate-witch Hillary.   If you are going to go off on a "Fascism"  bent,   you need to keep your priorities straight.   Hillary has BEEN a Fascist in her use of government power.   

She's *USED*  and attempted to use the force of government to hurt people. 



You seem to be more interested in complaining about the mote in Trump's eye instead of worrying about the Beam in Hillary's eye.   


Let us keep our priorities straight.   If you are truly worried about Fascism,   you need to keep looking in the direction of Hillary.   





‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
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Offline aligncare

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #60 on: June 03, 2016, 04:41:31 pm »

Trump is a vulgarian? Think about that. When Marco Rubio made a veiled reference to the size of Donald trumps manhood, that was vulgar. Trump never uttered anything similar. Yet, it's Trump that gets mislabeled vulgar.

What you're really saying is New Yorkers are vulgarians. We don't see it that way. We call it speaking truth to power, and doing what it takes to win because you know you are right, and that the other candidates were nothing but phony politicians mouthing the same feckless platitudes every election.

Simply, Trump was having none of that.

Offline INVAR

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #61 on: June 03, 2016, 04:44:52 pm »
That's a fair point, but every seed does not become a tree.  Most die or get crowded out.

Sir, I'm not willing to take that risk and remain silent about what is being planted - even if the odds of it germinating into the exact same 'tree' does not happen.

It might end up being a shrub - or a freaking redwood forest of despotism for all we know.

What I do know is that what is being planted right now, by ALL candidates running - is DESTRUCTIVE to liberty, the Constitution and individual rights.  NONE of the 3 major candidates running even so much as mention those things, while almost everything they propose is harmful, destructive and punitive in one fashion or another.  Be it Marxist Communist, Fascist, Collectivist, Statist - whatever. 

Of course it is possible that Trump's rhetoric will be the seeds that lead to the same end, but it is also entirely possible that they will not.

I'm not willing to take that risk.

There are a lot of institutional/principled factors in this country that makes it very, very different from the Italy and Germany of the 1920's.

The fact of history that our Founders repeatedly warned us, is that no Republic lasts or survives for long unless it's people are moral, virtuous, religious and safeguard ANY encroachment they see upon their liberties and shares in the legislatures of governance.

We failed in that regard.  What we are watching play out right now - is the result of a post-Constitutional republic.

If you're really looking for fascism to come to this country, I don't think it would follow the model of Mussolini or Hitler anyway, with street thugs propelling someone to power and supporting the creation of a dictatorship.

We've already got one, propelled into existence under Obama by the very 2-party oligarchy running candidates for the throne.

It is far more likely to come with a lawful election, followed by control over the courts and legislature.

Hello? 2008 and 2012 anyone?  We're already there.  The courts protect the state at the expense of liberty, make laws by fiat along with Alphabet agencies outside the review or oversight of the people at the directive of the Executive who wields a pen and phone.

It will be a creeping "legal" form of fascism coupled with that government turning a blind eye to street thugs who silence opposition.  That could happen in this country, even with a military not disposed towards fascism.

Look around sir.  I suspect you knew as you were typing that this is exactly what we have now.  Who turns a blind eye to Islamic thugs, Mexican illegals and refuses to uphold laws they deem of themselves 'unconstitutional'????  FCC and the IRS are doing a terrific job of silencing opposition.  Care to protest and demand redress of grievances?  Well, you have to pay for and obtain a permit and go to designated 'free speech zone'.  Sir, everything you are suggesting that is "likely" - is already here and being entrenched as institutional.

And again, I don't see Trump having anything close to the potential for doing that

No, he will build on what has already been done and remake everything into his own image.

-- he simply does not have the institutional support in the courts, state legislatures, or Congress. 

Pen and Phone Precedent has already been set.  Now it's reality.

But Hillary/Bernie do, and that's what we are actually seeing right now before our own eyes.  That's not just a seed -- that's a damn sapling at this point.

Bolsheviks and Communists on one side - Liberal Fascists on another.

It's interesting to note that both Mussolini and Hitler HATED the Communists and much of the early violence in their streets was a direct result of supporters for the Communists and the Fascists going at it.

History is rhyming or repeating depending on how close you wish to measure what's going on out there now.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline INVAR

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #62 on: June 03, 2016, 04:53:53 pm »

As compared to Hillary?   Are you kidding?   

We know what Hillary and Sanders are. 

Comparing Marxist Communists to a Populist Nationalist (I'll be generous) quasi-Fascist-sounding egomaniac with fits of temper tantrums while stoking public animosity against whatever target duJour he rants about, is an exercise in deciding which tyranny would one prefer.

I choose neither.

You seem to be more interested in complaining about the mote in Trump's eye instead of worrying about the Beam in Hillary's eye.   

I can give two whits about either of their eyes.  All of them are blind to the Constitution, individual liberty and the limits of federal power.

Let us keep our priorities straight.   If you are truly worried about Fascism,   you need to keep looking in the direction of Hillary.

Hillary is an Alinkyite  Marxist Communist.  As I worry about fascism, I'm looking at Trump but don't discount The Mao Pantsuit likes aspects of shaking down businesses and partnering with them for her advantage.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline sinkspur

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #63 on: June 03, 2016, 05:05:05 pm »
Trump is a vulgarian? Think about that. When Marco Rubio made a veiled reference to the size of Donald trumps manhood, that was vulgar. Trump never uttered anything similar. Yet, it's Trump that gets mislabeled vulgar.

What you're really saying is New Yorkers are vulgarians. We don't see it that way. We call it speaking truth to power, and doing what it takes to win because you know you are right, and that the other candidates were nothing but phony politicians mouthing the same feckless platitudes every election.

Simply, Trump was having none of that.

"Blood was coming out of her eyes, blood was coming out of her wherever."  Trump speaking of Megyn Kelly.

Yep. Trump is a vulgarian.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2016, 05:05:44 pm by sinkspur »
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #64 on: June 03, 2016, 05:33:40 pm »
Trump is a vulgarian? Think about that. When Marco Rubio made a veiled reference to the size of Donald trumps manhood, that was vulgar. Trump never uttered anything similar. Yet, it's Trump that gets mislabeled vulgar.


"Little Rubio"   can be taken in more than one context.   Trump is just generally more clever at using his subtle digs.   I don't think the childish taunts came naturally to Rubio,   he was simply trying to respond in kind.   (And I don't like Rubio.)   





What you're really saying is New Yorkers are vulgarians.


That is my impression of a Typical New Yorker. (City,  not state)  I'm sure there are many who are not,   but there are enough that are so as to create that impression in the rest of the country. 





 We don't see it that way. We call it speaking truth to power, and doing what it takes to win because you know you are right, and that the other candidates were nothing but phony politicians mouthing the same feckless platitudes every election.

Simply, Trump was having none of that.


I get that aspect of it too.   I don't really have any objections to getting vicious with words,   but I have no illusions that it isn't  a vulgarian thing to do.   


I do it myself from time to time.   

And yes,  Trump fights back.   That is one of the most admirable characteristics I see about him.   I wish others were half so mean and vicious as Trump can be.    He describes himself as a "counter-puncher",   and that is what we have been sorely needing for quite a long time. 


But I would have rather had Cruz.   
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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #65 on: June 03, 2016, 05:43:30 pm »
We know what Hillary and Sanders are. 

Comparing Marxist Communists to a Populist Nationalist (I'll be generous) quasi-Fascist-sounding egomaniac with fits of temper tantrums while stoking public animosity against whatever target duJour he rants about, is an exercise in deciding which tyranny would one prefer.

I choose neither.



And I argue that it is delusional to believe you have that choice.   You are going to get one of them.   If your hatred for Donald Trump exceeds the outright fear which should be provoked from the contemplation of a Hillary Presidency,   then you should simply vote for Hillary  because by staying out of the race you are giving her one vote anyway.   

Why do it half way?   Vote for her and cause a two vote swing away from Trump.


   

I can give two whits about either of their eyes.  All of them are blind to the Constitution, individual liberty and the limits of federal power.



So are most people walking around in the street,   but there are lots of variations of degree.   Hillary is not really blind to the Constitution,   she simply doesn't give a crap about what it says when it comes to getting what she thinks she wants.   

Trump on the other hand,  probably is merely blind.   





Hillary is an Alinkyite  Marxist Communist.  As I worry about fascism, I'm looking at Trump but don't discount The Mao Pantsuit likes aspects of shaking down businesses and partnering with them for her advantage.


It is statements like this that make me think you people who focus on Trump are very ignorant of the far greater threat of Hillary Clinton.    Have you not been keeping up with the doings of the Clinton Mafia/ Clinton Foundation?   


Are you not aware of the evidence so far presented that this "Clinton Foundation"  was a backdoor bribery scheme for buying influence for foreign powers and domestic businesses to receive favorable treatment?     


The things you claim to fear from Trump,   Hillary has already done! 


She is at heart a Nazi.   
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
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Offline Mesaclone

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #66 on: June 03, 2016, 05:46:27 pm »
"Blood was coming out of her eyes, blood was coming out of her wherever."  Trump speaking of Megyn Kelly.

Yep. Trump is a vulgarian.

Finally, I can use a quote from my favorite book (Lord of the Rings) that is apropos.

"I think a servant of Fascism would look fairer and feel fouler."

Donald is crass, a bit of a vulgarian as Bill mentioned, but his foulness is on open display...some might simply call it a New York tell it like it is directness. Real fascists in the modern setting, disguise their nature with political correctness and Harvard Law articulation. Like Churchill, Trump may be a rude, crude, arrogant and obnoxious man...and like Churchill, that kind of rude tougness is exactly what is needed to overturn the current complacency and corruption that rules our government at the moment.

And again, Trump and his supporters are the targets of violence and an effort to silence them...and its sad that any Republican would fall for the idiocy that its their fault for "creating an environment" conducive to this. That kind of blame the victim is simply meant to condone attacks and violence aimed at suppressing free speech. You blaming Trump for this is no different then a misogynist blaming a raped woman because she was wearing a tight dress. Its disgusting that you blame the attacked rather than the attacker, and it should demonstrate to yourself that you've succumbed to the liberal meme that suppressing free speech they don't like because its "hate speech" or full of "micro-aggressions". Just plain sickening.
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Offline sinkspur

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #67 on: June 03, 2016, 05:54:19 pm »
Finally, I can use a quote from my favorite book (Lord of the Rings) that is apropos.

"I think a servant of Fascism would look fairer and feel fouler."

Donald is crass, a bit of a vulgarian as Bill mentioned, but his foulness is on open display...some might simply call it a New York tell it like it is directness. Real fascists in the modern setting, disguise their nature with political correctness and Harvard Law articulation. Like Churchill, Trump may be a rude, crude, arrogant and obnoxious man...and like Churchill, that kind of rude tougness is exactly what is needed to overturn the current complacency and corruption that rules our government at the moment.

And again, Trump and his supporters are the targets of violence and an effort to silence them...and its sad that any Republican would fall for the idiocy that its their fault for "creating an environment" conducive to this. That kind of blame the victim is simply meant to condone attacks and violence aimed at suppressing free speech. You blaming Trump for this is no different then a misogynist blaming a raped woman because she was wearing a tight dress. Its disgusting that you blame the attacked rather than the attacker, and it should demonstrate to yourself that you've succumbed to the liberal meme that suppressing free speech they don't like because its "hate speech" or full of "micro-aggressions". Just plain sickening.

Churchill was a learned and educated man.  Trump is completely ignorant of the way government works; he thinks judges sign bills.  He's also stupid about international policy:  he thinks a proliferation of nuclear weapons would make the world safer.  No wonder he wants to sit down with the crazed Kim Jung Un.

Churchill had a phrase for Trump:  "He's a bull who carries his china shop around with him."

And I have stayed completely off the protest threads, so I have blamed Trump for nothing there.  So stop slinging around insults like your Donald.

And, I read your last paragraph on another thread.  So you're now reduced to cutting and pasting yourself?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2016, 05:56:26 pm by sinkspur »
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #68 on: June 03, 2016, 06:02:45 pm »
Churchill was a learned and educated man.  Trump is completely ignorant of the way government works;


As was Obama.   Hillary,  on the other hand,  knows exactly how it works,   but deliberately chooses to undermine it. 



‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
— Lord Melbourne —

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #69 on: June 03, 2016, 06:05:05 pm »
And to punctuate my point about Hillary already being a Fascist.




Cash Flowed to Clinton Foundation Amid Russian Uranium Deal





Quote
But the untold story behind that story is one that involves not just the Russian president, but also a former American president and a woman who would like to be the next one.

At the heart of the tale are several men, leaders of the Canadian mining industry, who have been major donors to the charitable endeavors of former President Bill Clinton and his family. Members of that group built, financed and eventually sold off to the Russians a company that would become known as Uranium One.



http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html?_r=1
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Offline INVAR

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #70 on: June 03, 2016, 06:07:07 pm »
And I argue that it is delusional to believe you have that choice.
 

I argue it's delusional for you to think I'm going to cast a vote for either The Mao Pantsuit OR Lil' Benito Trump. I will be writing in my Conservative choice or voting third party. Thats my choice.  It will be on the ballot.


You are going to get one of them.   

I don't care. I won't be party to supporting either one of those liberal Statists with a vote.

If your hatred for Donald Trump exceeds the outright fear which should be provoked from the contemplation of a Hillary Presidency,   then you should simply vote for Hillary  because by staying out of the race you are giving her one vote anyway.   

I'm not falling for that intimidation crap anymore.  I did back with Dole, McCain and then Romney.  I won't be doing that a fourth time.

Hillary is not really blind to the Constitution,   she simply doesn't give a crap about what it says when it comes to getting what she thinks she wants.   

I suspect The Donald will be exactly the same way given his statements this campaign whereareas he has no authority to do the things he says he is going to do.

It is statements like this that make me think you people who focus on Trump are very ignorant of the far greater threat of Hillary Clinton.

I guess you will have to decide which is the greater danger to you personally which to me is no different than trying to decide if I'm better off under Stalin or better off under Hitler.  I won't choose either of them.

The things you claim to fear from Trump,   Hillary has already done! 


She is at heart a Nazi.

I'm done voting for the lesser evil to supposedly defeat evil.  We even worked and handed the Senate to the GOP and they stabbed us in the back and handed Obama a defacto dictatorship - so I'm not persuaded or moved by your arguments at all.

I thought Trump said he did not need Conservatives to win and his acolytes jumped up and down during board purges that they would "win"without us.

So why spend all your energy trying to convince us of that which we are never going to accept?

Work on the Bernie Supporters.  They have no principles and will be easier for you folks to persuade to vote for Trump.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #71 on: June 03, 2016, 06:08:04 pm »
Oh,   and here's another one. 



Scripted: Clinton team tried to plant questions and script introductions at community college appearances





http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3621275/Emails-Clinton-staff-reviewed-remarks-questions-events.html#ixzz4ASN8sDi5
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Offline DiogenesLamp

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #72 on: June 03, 2016, 06:14:53 pm »
 

I argue it's delusional for you to think I'm going to cast a vote for either The Mao Pantsuit OR Lil' Benito Trump. I will be writing in my Conservative choice or voting third party. Thats my choice.  It will be on the ballot.


Right.   One vote for Hillary.  Like I said,  if you are going to give her one vote,  why not give her two? 

Don't do things half way.   You've made up your mind to oppose Trump,   so you should oppose him to the ultimate extent possible.   


It's a differential process.   When you take away a vote from Trump,   you do one votes worth of damage.   If you give that vote to Hillary,  you do two votes worth of damage.   

If you've made up your mind to do damage,   do double damage.   Don't do half damage.   


Live up to your decision.   


"So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."
‘What all the wise men promised has not happened, and what all the damned fools said would happen has come to pass.’
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Offline Mesaclone

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #73 on: June 03, 2016, 06:15:49 pm »


And I argue that it is delusional to believe you have that choice.   You are going to get one of them.   If your hatred for Donald Trump exceeds the outright fear which should be provoked from the contemplation of a Hillary Presidency,   then you should simply vote for Hillary  because by staying out of the race you are giving her one vote anyway.   

Why do it half way?   Vote for her and cause a two vote swing away from Trump.


   


So are most people walking around in the street,   but there are lots of variations of degree.   Hillary is not really blind to the Constitution,   she simply doesn't give a crap about what it says when it comes to getting what she thinks she wants.   

Trump on the other hand,  probably is merely blind.   






It is statements like this that make me think you people who focus on Trump are very ignorant of the far greater threat of Hillary Clinton.    Have you not been keeping up with the doings of the Clinton Mafia/ Clinton Foundation?   


Are you not aware of the evidence so far presented that this "Clinton Foundation"  was a backdoor bribery scheme for buying influence for foreign powers and domestic businesses to receive favorable treatment?     


The things you claim to fear from Trump,   Hillary has already done! 


She is at heart a Nazi.

Diogenes, your heart is in the right place but I just think pressuring someone like Bill who has valid concerns...is the wrong approach. I agree with you that the danger Hillary represents is vastly greater than any reasonable concerns about Donald, but for some conservatives its going to take time and reflection to reach that conclusion on their own. Guys like Sink and Invar are hopeless, they are full of hate and anger and no amount of reasoning is even heard by them. But Bill represents exactly the kind of voters we need to win over...or rather Mr. Trump needs to win over...and he has to do so by showing he can be restrained and well informed AS WELL AS willing to blow the roof of the PC garbage. Heck, I agree with them that Trump needs add some complexity to his arguments and demeanor.

So lets not beat them up at a time when we need to give them space. Thinkers like Bill will follow reason and conscience and I believe that will naturally lead them to Mr. Trump in the end...though they will likely not be "excited" over the choice. Rational and mature folks understand that sometimes you DO have to look at the lesser of two weavils, particularly when one weavil is vastly worse than the other.
We have the best government that money can buy. Mark Twain

Offline Mesaclone

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Re: The wide gaping difference between Nationalism and Fascism...
« Reply #74 on: June 03, 2016, 06:21:26 pm »
Churchill was a learned and educated man.  Trump is completely ignorant of the way government works; he thinks judges sign bills.  He's also stupid about international policy:  he thinks a proliferation of nuclear weapons would make the world safer.  No wonder he wants to sit down with the crazed Kim Jung Un.

Churchill had a phrase for Trump:  "He's a bull who carries his china shop around with him."

And I have stayed completely off the protest threads, so I have blamed Trump for nothing there.  So stop slinging around insults like your Donald.

And, I read your last paragraph on another thread.  So you're now reduced to cutting and pasting yourself?

First, if I wanted to cut and paste my own words I would. Second, I did not do so. Likely I covered the same issue as popped up in another thread, and I don't specifically remember where exactly it came up, but what I wrote in each was independent of the other.
We have the best government that money can buy. Mark Twain