Author Topic: It isn't often that a single graphic is worthy of it's own thread but this one is!  (Read 1712 times)

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Online Bigun

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It isn't often that a single graphic is worthy of it's own thread but this one is!

« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 03:13:56 am by mystery-ak »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline katzenjammer

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I agree, it is worth its own thread!

Here is a two part interview from a couple of years ago.  Morgan actually conducts a decent interview (so don't let that scare anyone away!).  The sheer BRILLIANCE of Justice Scalia shines throughout both parts.

(His commentary on Roe v. Wade, at the start of Part 2, foreshadows the same core principle shown in the graphic above.)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it7sN2jqpNs



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7bfhzqspKc


We lost a national treasure over the past weekend.  Will God see fit to bless us with another?

Online Bigun

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That is a great video indeed Katz and very informative. Thank you for digging it up and posting it but My purpose in posting this was to induce conversation about the actual words of Justice Scalia in the graphic I posted!

Should we not be concerned with that?
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline katzenjammer

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Yes, I agree.  I pointed to his commentary at the start of Part 2 as germane to discussing the words in the graphic.

Justice Scalia is basically saying the same thing (using different words) when he was speaking about the Roe v. Wade decision.

Paraphrasing him, he is saying that the concept of "substantive due process" which essentially means that some rights are 'so superior' that they can not be taken away by due process.  He disputes that concept as applied in Roe as well as how it has surfaced in other cases of his Court.  He tells us that the theory that is simply a lie, that there is a clear divide between substance and procedure (process).

Morgan interrupts with some tangential questions about women having "no rights" in the time of the Founding that Scalia swats away.

When he gets a chance to get back to the essence, he continues to inform us that the Constitution simply doesn’t say anything about it (abortion in that case, same sex marriage and other issues are foreshadowed).  Since the Constitution says nothing about it, then it is left up to the States.  The Court does not do 'democratic choice' a favor by removing it from its rightful place in the States.

IIRC he also gets right to the words of the quote above ("fundamentally at odds with our system of government"), when he re-emphasises later that when the Court steps in and removes an issue from State control by subsuming it with "super legislative power," it is a stark affront to our system of government.



Beyond that, I simply love to hear him speak about our Founders at the end of part 2...  brings a tear of reverence to my eyes for both our Founders and our lost Justice.

Online Bigun

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Yes, I agree.  I pointed to his commentary at the start of Part 2 as germane to discussing the words in the graphic.

Justice Scalia is basically saying the same thing (using different words) when he was speaking about the Roe v. Wade decision.

Paraphrasing him, he is saying that the concept of "substantive due process" which essentially means that some rights are 'so superior' that they can not be taken away by due process.  He disputes that concept as applied in Roe as well as how it has surfaced in other cases of his Court.  He tells us that the theory that is simply a lie, that there is a clear divide between substance and procedure (process).

Morgan interrupts with some tangential questions about women having "no rights" in the time of the Founding that Scalia swats away.

When he gets a chance to get back to the essence, he continues to inform us that the Constitution simply doesn’t say anything about it (abortion in that case, same sex marriage and other issues are foreshadowed).  Since the Constitution says nothing about it, then it is left up to the States.  The Court does not do 'democratic choice' a favor by removing it from its rightful place in the States.

IIRC he also gets right to the words of the quote above ("fundamentally at odds with our system of government"), when he re-emphasises later that when the Court steps in and removes an issue from State control by subsuming it with "super legislative power," it is a stark affront to our system of government.



Beyond that, I simply love to hear him speak about our Founders at the end of part 2...  brings a tear of reverence to my eyes for both our Founders and our lost Justice.

I blushingly admit to only watching the first video last night before responding to your post.  I have now watched the second and see exactly what you mean and yes it does address the language on my graphic very directly!.  I apologize for my error.

The bottom line in all of this is where on earth did judges get the idea that they have the power to write law under our constitution?  That is a complete mystery to me.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online andy58-in-nh

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The bottom line in all of this is where on earth did judges get the idea that they have the power to write law under our constitution?  That is a complete mystery to me.

It started with Marbury v. Madison (1803) and the idea of judicial review, and expanded gradually over time. By the time we got to Roe v. Wade, the liberal wing of the court was entirely unconstrained from (and apparently unembarrassed by) substituting its policy preferences for interpretation of the law. 
"The most terrifying force of death, comes from the hands of Men who wanted to be left Alone. They try, so very hard, to mind their own business and provide for themselves and those they love. They resist every impulse to fight back, knowing the forced and permanent change of life that will come from it. They know, that the moment they fight back, their lives as they have lived them, are over. -Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Online Bigun

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It started with Marbury v. Madison (1803) and the idea of judicial review, and expanded gradually over time. By the time we got to Roe v. Wade, the liberal wing of the court was entirely unconstrained from (and apparently unembarrassed by) substituting its policy preferences for interpretation of the law.

I think you are EXACTLY right Andy! Nowhere does the Constitution grant the court ANY such power as judicial review and it's about time for the congress to make that clear to them!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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It started with Marbury v. Madison (1803) and the idea of judicial review, and expanded gradually over time. By the time we got to Roe v. Wade, the liberal wing of the court was entirely unconstrained from (and apparently unembarrassed by) substituting its policy preferences for interpretation of the law.

Would you stop that please?

Judicial review did NOT start with Marbury. The concept not only existed before the Constitution but was common between the ratification of the Constitution and Marbury.

Here are several cases involving judicial review that took place before Marbury but after the ratification of the Constitution:

  • Hayburn's Case, 2 U.S. (2 Dall.) 408 (1792), federal circuit courts held an act of Congress unconstitutional for the first time. Three federal circuit courts found that Congress had violated the Constitution by passing an act requiring circuit court judges to decide pension applications, subject to the review of the Secretary of War. These circuit courts found that this was not a proper judicial function under Article III. These three decisions were appealed to the Supreme Court, but the appeals became moot when Congress repealed the statute while the appeals were pending.
  • United States v. Yale Todd,[36] the Supreme Court reversed a pension that was awarded under the same pension act that had been at issue in Hayburn's Case. The Court apparently decided that the act designating judges to decide pensions was not constitutional because this was not a proper judicial function. This apparently was the first Supreme Court case to find an act of Congress unconstitutional. However, there was not an official report of the case and it was not used as a precedent.
  • Hylton v. United States, 3 U.S. (3 Dall.) 171 (1796), was the first case decided by the Supreme Court that involved a challenge to the constitutionality of an act of Congress. It was argued that a federal tax on carriages violated the constitutional provision regarding "direct" taxes. The Supreme Court upheld the tax, finding it was constitutional. Although the Supreme Court did not strike down the act in question, the Court engaged in the process of judicial review by considering the constitutionality of the tax. The case was widely publicized at the time, and observers understood that the Court was testing the constitutionality of an act of Congress.[37] Because it found the statute valid, the Court did not have to assert that it had the power to declare a statute unconstitutional.
  • Ware v. Hylton, 3 U.S. (3 Dall.) 199 (1796), the Supreme Court for the first time struck down a state statute. The Court reviewed a Virginia statute regarding pre-Revolutionary war debts and found that it was inconsistent with the peace treaty between the United States and Great Britain. Relying on the Supremacy Clause, the Court found the Virginia statute invalid.
  • Hollingsworth v. Virginia, 3 U.S. (3 Dall.) 378 (1798), the Supreme Court found that it did not have jurisdiction to hear the case because of the jurisdiction limitations of the Eleventh Amendment. This holding could be viewed as an implicit finding that the Judiciary Act of 1789, which would have allowed the Court jurisdiction, was unconstitutional in part. However, the Court did not provide any reasoning for its conclusion and did not say that it was finding the statute unconstitutional since the statute itself was not challenged.

In 1789 Kentucky and Virginia passed a series of resolutions asserting that States had the power to to determine whether Federal Laws (Acts of Congress) are unconstitutional, but in response, ten States passed their own resolutions disapproving the resolutions passed by Kentucky and Virginia, with six of those States took the position that the power to declare acts of Congress unconstitutional lies in the federal courts. 

The majority of the States had cases involving judicial review between 1776 and 1787, and at least seven delegates to the Constitutional Convention had personal involvement with judicial review cases by being either lawyers or judges in one or more of such proceedings. Alexander Hamilton was one of them. Those pre-Constitution judicial review cases were referred to during the debates surrounding the crafting of the Constitution.

During those debates George Mason agreed that Federal judges "could declare an unconstitutional law void", but was careful to point out that  "every law however unjust, oppressive or pernicious, which did not come plainly under this description" (unconstitutional) should be given "free course" by judges.

IOW, the Constitution itself establishes that it is "the Supreme Law of the Land", so Federal statutes are the law of the land only when they are "made in pursuance" of the Constitution. State constitutions and statutes are valid only if they are consistent with the Constitution. Any law contrary to the Constitution is void. So no legislature, Federal or State, has the right to enact unconstitutional laws, and it falls on the Federal Judiciary to void those laws out because they are charged with making sure that the Constitution remains the "Supreme Law of the Land" and they have the Constitutional power to hear "all cases , in law and equity, arising under this Constitution". It is an ABSURD notion that the SCOTUS has the power to hear cases and simply say "Wow! You're right! That law is unconstitutional!" then do absolutely nothing about it, allowing unconstitutional laws to stand.

In fact, the people themselves do not have the right to demand that laws contrary to the Constitution be enacted, irrespective of them being a majority of the people. That is what makes us a Constitutional Republic... the idea that an omnipotent majority, whether of the people or the legislatures, cannot decide on whether or not a right or privilege, constitutionally protected or not, can be enjoyed by a  minority, or even an individual.

Neither State legislatures or Congress have the right to be wrong.

I respect Scalia, but he was dead wrong on this.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 03:37:20 pm by Luis Gonzalez »
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Online Bigun

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What you always seem to forget Luis is that in every one of the cases you mention ALL of the players on the field at the time were participants in the founding and KNEW precisely what they had and had not written into the Constitution.  Even in Marbury the plaintiff in the case NEVER received the commission the court said he w as due!

Scalia is definitely NOT wrong! He is in fact RIGHT AS RAIN! Courts DO NOT get to write law under our constitution and their adoption of the practice needs to be STOPPED right f#$%#%^ NOW!

"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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What you always seem to forget Luis is that in every one of the cases you mention ALL of the players on the field at the time were participants in the founding and KNEW precisely what they had and had not written into the Constitution.  Even in Marbury the plaintiff in the case NEVER received the commission the court said he w as due!

Scalia is definitely NOT wrong! He is in fact RIGHT AS RAIN! Courts DO NOT get to write law under our constitution and their adoption of the practice needs to be STOPPED right f#$%#%^ NOW!

I forgot nothing Bigun. It's all right there the Founders themselves set Judicial review as a standard. And the courts don't "write laws", that's an unintelligent meme. They invalidate what they find to be unconstitutional laws leaving Congress and State legislatures the ability to try and rewrite the law in a constitutional manner.

BTW judicial review is only "bad" when the decision doesn't come our way. No one here would have brought up the subject if the Roberts Court had overturned Obamacare.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 04:03:56 pm by Luis Gonzalez »
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Online Bigun

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The founders didn't give the court any power of enforcement for a reason Luis!

And you are entirely wrong about the courts not writing law! They have been doing that for a long time now Revs Wade being a prime example! There are MANY other recent examples!

« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 04:05:58 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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What you always seem to forget Luis is that in every one of the cases you mention ALL of the players on the field at the time were participants in the founding and KNEW precisely what they had and had not written into the Constitution.  Even in Marbury the plaintiff in the case NEVER received the commission the court said he w as due!

Scalia is definitely NOT wrong! He is in fact RIGHT AS RAIN! Courts DO NOT get to write law under our constitution and their adoption of the practice needs to be STOPPED right f#$%#%^ NOW!

That was a failure of the Executive Branch.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Online Bigun

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That was a failure of the Executive Branch.

Nope! The Court rendered it's OPINION and it was duly noted!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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The founders didn't give the court any power of enforcement for a reason Luis!

And you are entirely wrong about the courts not writing law! They have been doing that for a long time now Revs Wade being a prime example! There are MANY other recent examples!

That's not the subject here Bigun.

You've been making the claim (for years) that Marbury was the first Judicial review case. It wasn't. I've listed instances of Judicial review not only prior to Marbury, but also pointed out that Judicial review was common case prior to the ratification of the Constitution, that it was discussed and agreed upon during the Constitutional convention and that it was recognized by the majority of the States via State resolutions.

You're just wrong and can't (as is usually the case) admit to it. 

Roe did not "write law", that is an unintelligent meme designed to satisfy the unintelligent mind.

Roe overturned laws making abortion illegal. Since Roe, laws have been enacted placing limitations on abortions, meaning that legislatures and Congress have been able to rewrite abortion laws within the confines of the Constitution and under Roe.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Nope! The Court rendered it's OPINION and it was duly noted!

Robert Yates, writing under the pseudonym "Brutus":

Quote
"[T]he judges under this constitution will control the legislature, for the supreme court are authorised in the last resort, to determine what is the extent of the powers of the Congress. They are to give the constitution an explanation, and there is no power above them to set aside their judgment. . . . The supreme court then have a right, independent of the legislature, to give a construction to the constitution and every part of it, and there is no power provided in this system to correct their construction or do it away. If, therefore, the legislature pass any laws, inconsistent with the sense the judges put upon the constitution, they will declare it void." - Anti-Federalist 48
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Online Bigun

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Robert Yates, writing under the pseudonym "Brutus":

In case you missed it Luis the Anti-federalists  LOST the argument  and the Constitution was adopted!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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In case you missed it Luis the Anti-federalists  LOST the argument  and the Constitution was adopted!

I'm glad you fell for that. You're nothing if not predictable.

On this issue, both sides agreed:

Quote
[T]he courts were designed to be an intermediate body between the people and the legislature, in order, among other things, to keep the latter within the limits assigned to their authority. The interpretation of the laws is the proper and peculiar province of the courts. A constitution is, in fact, and must be regarded by the judges, as a fundamental law. It therefore belongs to them to ascertain its meaning, as well as the meaning of any particular act proceeding from the legislative body. If there should happen to be an irreconcilable variance between the two, that which has the superior obligation and validity ought, of course, to be preferred; or, in other words, the Constitution ought to be preferred to the statute, the intention of the people to the intention of their agents.
Nor does this conclusion by any means suppose a superiority of the judicial to the legislative power. It only supposes that the power of the people is superior to both; and that where the will of the legislature, declared in its statutes, stands in opposition to that of the people, declared in the Constitution, the judges ought to be governed by the latter rather than the former. They ought to regulate their decisions by the fundamental laws, rather than by those which are not fundamental....

[A]ccordingly, whenever a particular statute contravenes the Constitution, it will be the duty of the Judicial tribunals to adhere to the latter and disregard the former....

[T]he courts of justice are to be considered as the bulwarks of a limited Constitution against legislative encroachments.

Alexander Hamilton, Federalist #78
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Online Bigun

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Did you watch the interview videos Katz posted above Luis?  You REALLY should!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Bigun

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I'm glad you fell for that. You're nothing if not predictable.

On this issue, both sides agreed:

Alexander Hamilton, Federalist #78

In that case it should have been easy for them to get the language authorizing them to do that incorporated in the Constitution. Where is it?
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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George Mason, from Records from the Federal Convention.



"... in this capacity, they (Federal Judges)could impede in one case only, the operation of laws. They could declare an unconstitutional law void."


"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Online Bigun

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George Mason, from Records from the Federal Convention.



"... in this capacity, they (Federal Judges)could impede in one case only, the operation of laws. They could declare an unconstitutional law void."

You ARE aware that George Mason walked away from that Convention in disgust aren't you?

Quote
At Philadelphia in 1787 Mason was one of the five most frequent speakers at the Constitutional Convention. He exerted great influence, but during the last 2 weeks of the convention he decided not to sign the document.

http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/biographies/george-mason/a-biography-of-george-mason-1725-1792.php
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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In that case it should have been easy for them to get the language authorizing them to do that incorporated in the Constitution. Where is it?

In the Constitution, but you won't see it because it would make you wrong,

The Constitution wasn't written to satisfy your specifics, but it was debated and written to include the power to give a branch of the government the power to declare unconstitutional encroachments void.

That branch is the Judiciary branch.

You go on being wrong, I'm not concerned with your opinion, but according to everything that I've posted to this point in this discussion it is crystal clear that Judicial Review is consistent with the Founder's ideas and with the Constitution itself.

Scalia himself voided several State laws because (in his opinion) they were unconstitutional.

One such State law that he overturned gave George W. Bush a victory in Florida over Al Gore, and the Presidency (Bush v. Gore, 531 U.S. 98)

I'm not complaining about that! 

"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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You ARE aware that George Mason walked away from that Convention in disgust aren't you?

http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/biographies/george-mason/a-biography-of-george-mason-1725-1792.php

How does that invalidate his opinion on the powers of the Courts?

Come on man, engage your intellect.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Online Bigun

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How does that invalidate his opinion on the powers of the Courts?

Come on man, engage your intellect.

It doesn't!  But nowhere will you find George Mason saying that ANY court should be the sole arbiter of what is or is not Constitutional!  The Court get's to render it's OPINION and that is all!


That is precisely why EVERY federal government officer is required to swear an OATH to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution! The problem is that most of the people currently in Congress either don't understand, or willfully choose to ignore, what that oath actually means!

"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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It doesn't!  But nowhere will you find George Mason saying that ANY court should be the sole arbiter of what is or is not Constitutional!  The Court get's to render it's OPINION and that is all!


That is precisely why EVERY federal government officer is required to swear an OATH to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution! The problem is that most of the people currently in Congress either don't understand, or willfully choose to ignore, what that oath actually means!

Come on man, engage your intellect.

If every Court decision ois just an unenforceable "opinion" that carries no weight, why have Courts at all?!

"The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity, arising under this constitution…" — Article III of The United States Constitution

What power?

The power to render an unenforceable, powerless, meaningless opinion?

SCOTUS - "In our opinion, that law is unconstitutional."

Congress - "*%^#$ you and your opinion!"

SCOTUS - "-------."

Good Lord man!

Make some sense!
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx