Author Topic: Trump’s new pal Vlad now basically threatening to shoot U.S. airmen out of the sky in Syria  (Read 2099 times)

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Offline sinkspur

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http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-12-17/new-russian-air-defenses-in-syria-keep-u-s-grounded

New Russian Air Defenses in Syria Keep U.S. Grounded

 DEC 17, 2015 8:51 PM EST

By Josh Rogin & Eli Lake

There is a new crisis for the international effort to destroy the Islamic State, created by the Kremlin. The U.S. has stopped flying manned air-support missions for rebels in a key part of northern Syria due to Russia’s expansion of air defense systems there, and the Barack Obama administration is scrambling to figure out what to do about it.

Russia’s military operations inside Syria have been expanding in recent weeks, and the latest Russian deployments, made without any advance notice to the U.S., have disrupted the U.S.-led coalition's efforts to support Syrian rebel forces fighting against the Islamic State near the Turkey-Syria border, just west of the Euphrates River, several Obama administration and U.S. defense officials told us. This crucial part of the battlefield, known inside the military as Box 4, is where a number of groups have been fighting the Islamic State for control, until recently with overhead support from U.S. fighter jets.

But earlier this month, Moscow deployed an SA-17 advanced air defense system near the area and began “painting” U.S. planes, targeting them with radar in what U.S. officials said was a direct and dangerous provocation. The Pentagon halted all manned flights, although U.S. drones are still flying in the area. Russia then began bombing the rebels the U.S. had been supporting. (U.S. manned airstrikes continue elsewhere in Syria.)

Inside the top levels of the administration, officials are debating what to do next. The issue is serious enough that Secretary of State John Kerry raised it with Russian President Vladimir Putin when they met on Tuesday, and Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman General John Dunford has discussed it with his Russian counterpart as well, a spokesman for U.S. Air Force Central Command told us.

"The increasing number of Russian-supplied advanced air defense systems in Syria, including SA-17s, is another example that Russia and the regime seek to complicate the global counter-Daesh coalition’s air campaign,” said Major Tim Smith, using another term for the Islamic State.

The increasing number of Russian air defense systems further complicate an already difficult situation over the skies in Syria, and do nothing to advance the fight against the Islamic State, which has no air force, Smith said. He added that Russia could instead be using its influence with the regime to press President Bashar al-Assad to cease attacking civilians. “Unhelpful actions by Russia and the Syrian regime will not stop coalition counter-Daesh operations in Syria, nor will such actions push the coalition away from specific regions in Syria where Daesh is operating,” said Smith.

Smith did not deny the administration officials' characterization of the situation in Box 4. Captain Jeff Davis, a Pentagon spokesman, told us that the U.S. continues to fly manned and unmanned strike missions in the areas of Syria where the Islamic State is active, including strikes Wednesday in the northeastern towns of Manjib and Mara. He also acknowledged that Russia's recent deployment of air defense systems have complicated U.S. air missions there.

In Washington, top officials are debating how to respond to Russia's expanded air defenses, said another administration official who was not authorized to discuss internal deliberations. The administration could decide to resume flights in support of the rebels fight Islamic State, but that could risk a deadly incident with the Russian military. For now, the U.S. seems to be acquiescing to Russia’s effort to keep American manned planes out of the sky there and "agree to their rules of the game," the administration official said.

With U.S. planes out of the way, Russia has stepped up its own airstrikes along the Turkey-Syria border, and the Obama administration has accused it of targeting the rebel groups the U.S. was supporting, not the Islamic State. The Russian strikes are also targeting commercial vehicles passing from Turkey into Syria, the administration official told us. The Washington Post reported that the Russian strikes have resulted in a halt of humanitarian aid from Turkey as well.

These heightened tensions between the U.S. and Russia on the ground run counter to the public outreach Kerry has been pursuing as part of his effort to kick-start a peace process between the Syrian regime and the opposition. In remarks at the Kremlin Tuesday, Kerry said he was “grateful for President Putin” and looked forward to cooperating with Russia on the fight against the Islamic State. Kerry will meet with Russian leaders again Friday in New York.

Kerry also said the U.S. is not pursuing “regime change” in Syria, comments that were seen by many as another step away from the long-held U.S. call for Assad to step down. The latest U.S.-Russia talks didn’t focus on Assad’s status, Kerry said, adding that he was working to establish a political process that would allow Syrians to choose their own leadership.

While the diplomacy drags on, the Russian military continues to place Assad in a stronger position and constrain the coalitions' operations, said Matthew McInnis, a former Iran analyst for U.S. Central Command and now a scholar at the American Enterprise Institute.  “The Russians are trying to create zones where they would have to give permission for U.S. flights,” he said. “The Russians are increasingly defining the military landscape by their actions.”

McInnis said he has heard other Western diplomats express concern about how much the U.S. may give in to the Russian and Syrian position to get a cease-fire. "There is definitely some nervousness about how far the administration is willing to go to accommodate the Russian position on Assad," he said.

Robert Ford, Obama’s former ambassador to Syria, said the Russians may have another motive in expanding their military operations in northern Syria: to put pressure on Turkey. Russian-Turkish relations have turned ugly since Turkey shot down a Russian plane near its border last month. Turkey is keenly interested in the Box 4 region in Syria because it supports the Sunni Arab groups fighting there, working covertly with the U.S.

“The Russians are doing this to squeeze the Turks," said Ford. "It’s going to cause problems for the CIA program."

The actual number of U.S. flights that were supporting Syrian groups in this area was not large. Officials told us that Defense Secretary Ash Carter had been resisting a more comprehensive air campaign in the area for two reasons: Some of the groups fighting there are not vetted and include Islamic brigades, including the al-Nusrah Front. Also, Carter prefers a strategy of supporting Syrian Kurds with weapons and having them take over the border territory.

But the Syrian Arabs and the Turks don’t want Kurdish troops to control Box 4, said Ford, because then the Kurds would then have a proto-state reaching all the way from the Mediterranean Sea to the Iran-Iraq border. 

The success of any U.S.-led effort to bring Assad to the negotiating table will depend on squeezing the Syrian regime. Yet at this crucial moment, the U.S. is not only decreasing pressure, but acquiescing to Russian pressure. This benefits not only Assad and Russia, but also the Islamic State.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline aligncare

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Nearly every one of your attackes on Trump comes from the left. Why is that, sink?

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Common sense says that Putin knows that Obama's Syrian agenda will not be anything like Trump's.

As soon as Trump takes the Oath of Office, we'll get along just fine...because both will be committed to destroying the same 'enemy'.

...just as Egyptian jets are utilizing Israeli airspace to carry out targeted runs in hotspots adjacent to Israel...just like Jordanian pilots are today being trained by the Israeli AF. 

Everybody that can fog a mirror knows that the Muslim Brotherhood and ISIS will be the main targets on Jan 21, 2017.

Trump and Putin will be BFF.
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline EdinVA

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This is a hilarious attempt at journalism.
The ONLY place Trump is mentioned is the headline.
Some real journalistic gymnastics to work Trump's responsibility into this.

Offline sinkspur

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Nearly every one of your attackes on Trump comes from the left. Why is that, sink?

Josh Rogin and Eli Lake are both conservatives.  Josh Rogin regularly appears on Greta's show and always takes the conservative side.

This is an attack on Putin, not on Trump.  Just thought I'd highlight what the Donald's new pal is up to.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline sinkspur

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Common sense says that Putin knows that Obama's Syrian agenda will not be anything like Trump's.

As soon as Trump takes the Oath of Office, we'll get along just fine...because both will be committed to destroying the same 'enemy'.

...just as Egyptian jets are utilizing Israeli airspace to carry out targeted runs in hotspots adjacent to Israel...just like Jordanian pilots are today being trained by the Israeli AF. 

Everybody that can fog a mirror knows that the Muslim Brotherhood and ISIS will be the main targets on Jan 21, 2017.

Trump and Putin will be BFF.

Putin is not going to give up his boy Assad without a fight, no matter who's president. 
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Online DCPatriot

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Putin is not going to give up his boy Assad without a fight, no matter who's president.

Who says that Trump wants Assad 'gone'?

Don't forget...his future VP has already said that the Middle East was calmer before our so-called War on Terror.
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline sinkspur

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Who says that Trump wants Assad 'gone'?

Don't forget...his future VP has already said that the Middle East was calmer before our so-called War on Terror.

Cruz is nuts. He sounds like Ron Paul with that goofy remark.  And totally unReaganesque.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Online DCPatriot

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Cruz is nuts. He sounds like Ron Paul with that goofy remark.  And totally unReaganesque.

???

IOW, are you of the mind that we'd still be in the same 'place' we are today if Saddam Hussein, Hosni Mubarak and Mumar Qaddafi were still controlling their respective countries?

Because history can clearly show that none of this crap was going on while they were still ruling. 

Takes a dictator to keep Middle Eastern tribes and sects docile.
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline sinkspur

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???

IOW, are you of the mind that we'd still be in the same 'place' we are today if Saddam Hussein, Hosni Mubarak and Mumar Qaddafi were still controlling their respective countries?

Because history can clearly show that none of this crap was going on while they were still ruling. 

Takes a dictator to keep Middle Eastern tribes and sects docile.

Yeah.  Hussein had used chemical weapons, funded terrorists, shot at American planes from his no-fly zone, and invaded two countries. What else was he going to do?  Neither you nor I know.

Qadaffi was building a nuclear weapon until Bush overthrew Hussein, then he figured he might be next so he gave up the effort.

It's  a very Democrat and Libertarian position to just roll up the drawbridge and ignore what is going on in the world. 
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline GAJohnnie

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More hysteric emotional bombast in place of rational thoughtful commentary from the Anti Trumpers. New day, same old failed tactics.

And they wonder why they are losing?

Offline EdinVA

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Josh Rogin and Eli Lake are both conservatives.  Josh Rogin regularly appears on Greta's show and always takes the conservative side.

This is an attack on Putin, not on Trump.  Just thought I'd highlight what the Donald's new pal is up to.

But I think you missed the real point Sink... Putin outsmarted us/Obama and now we are mad at him...
He went in, secured his assets and we ran away rather than engaging the situation and working to find a solution because Obama would have to admit that Romney was right about Russia.
We need to rethink what and how we are doing things over there and who's side we really are on.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2015, 03:09:39 pm by EdinVA »

Offline katzenjammer

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But I think you missed the real point Sink... Putin outsmarted us/Obama and now we are mad at him...
He went in, secured his assets and we ran away rather than engaging the situation and working to find a solution because Obama would have to admit that Romney was right about Russia.
We need to rethink what and how we are doing things over there and who's side we really are on.

What "we" (private citizens that have a deep and abiding love (& respect) for what this country used to represent on the world stage) is wake the heck up and embrace the reality that we see playing out in front of us over the past several decades.

To do that accurately, one must necessarily divorce her/himself from the blinders that party allegiance places over our eyes.  We need to be honest in calling out lies as lies, and truth as truth (though it is extremely rare of late), regardless of what party label the speaker wears.

The facts of the matter is that none of this "regime change" and "democracy projects" have done anything but destabilize the entire region (which is now great portions of two continents).  None of the "Arab spring" was organic (doesn't any one recall the likes of Bernardine Dohrn, Bill Ayers, Medea Benjamin and their cadre on the ground in Egypt, ginning up the revolution?).

How has the concept of national sovereignty virtually disappeared from the global body politic?  (One small clue is the Soros- and (Samantha) Power-developed "Responsibility to Protect" (R2P) that was pushed through the UN a number of years ago.  If you are not familiar with it, look it up, it is quite revealing.)  You don't hear it discussed in the open any longer, after it was exposed, but it provides the underlying theme and justification for what we have been watching in Egypt, Libya, Syria, and elsewhere.  (And bear in mind, it is just another derivative of the "Problem (Crisis) -- Reaction -- Solution" form of the Hegelian Dialectic that is used constantly against free people the world over.)

An ironic twist that I caught about R2P was when Putin essentially used it to justify, in part, his adventurism into the Ukraine.  He stood on the world stage and said that he had to protect the interests of Russian nationals living in the Ukraine.  I found that more than a bit ironic.

Just focus on Syria if you will.  Try to do two things: 1.  Ignore the party labels of those speaking out and setting policy.  2.  Shift your thinking back to the 1960s or 70s, before the will of the UN had been more completely forced onto this nation as the arbiter of "moral" and correct policy making.

Syria is a sovereign nation.  The internal politics and policy of the current leadership may not be palatable to Western sensibilities and thinking.  But they represent those of that nation.  Christians, Alewites, and other muslim sects lived relatively peacefully for decades under both Assad regimes.  Is it appropriate for the West to react against and deter the Syrian regime's attempts to meddle *outside* of its borders?  Absolutely.  But is it appropriate for the West to infiltrate and foment revolution, while arming and funding the so called revolutionaries via covert and illegal operations?  No, for if no other reason than the fact that experience and reality shows us quite clearly that the islamist revolutionaries (essentially the MB by very direct proxy!) are not going to yield anything but the same islamic theocracy that is yet another building block of the caliphate.  One more "failed state" overrun by islamist chaos, like Libya, that does nothing for the native peoples of the nation other than destroy their lives and livelihood.  (Look no further than the Christians, Yazidis, and Kurds from the region, for the results of this forced "regime change.")

Syria is (still) a sovereign nation.  Assad invited the Russians into the country to protect their current ruling government.  That is the reality.  The US and other allied forces have never been invited into the country.  We violate their sovereignty with every dollar, bullet, and islamist that we send across their borders.  How many that are propagandizing on the world stage about this situation on the world stage would draw the same parallel if Israel invited the US military into their country to help fend off an inorganic and externally fomented "revolution?"

Yet Republican citizens are supposed to support these gravely immoral actions because people like Graham, McCain, Ayotte, and countless others bleat on the national stage in support?  Democrat citizens are supposed to do the same because 0bama, Clinton, and their regime are currently executing the past 7 years of it? 

Think about it.  Clearly.

Cui bono?

Have the hundreds of billions of dollars spent, on each of these adventures, by (the taxpayers and their progeny of) the West benefited?

Have the indigenous peoples of each of these toppled nations benefited?

Has the world as a whole benefited from the unbridled chaos and destruction unleashed across two continents (and currently bleeding into three more)?

Someone has.

Offline Charlespg

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Well this would not be a problem if the jug eared jackass wasn't helping the daesh :nono:
Rather Trump Then Cackles Clinton

Offline aligncare

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Yeah.  Hussein had used chemical weapons, funded terrorists, shot at American planes from his no-fly zone, and invaded two countries. What else was he going to do?  Neither you nor I know.

Qadaffi was building a nuclear weapon until Bush overthrew Hussein, then he figured he might be next so he gave up the effort.

It's  a very Democrat and Libertarian position to just roll up the drawbridge and ignore what is going on in the world.

I'm in a learning curve and evolving on my understanding of the Middle East. It now seems to me that the Washington/media cartel whips up whatever fear is needed in the populous to justify administration policy decisions.

The Bush era regime change and democratization policy in the Middle East has been an unmitigated disaster. If we had done nothing in the Middle East post 9-11, we would be at least $5 trillion less in debt today, with no discernible difference in our security situation.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2015, 04:15:01 pm by aligncare »

Online Bigun

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What "we" (private citizens that have a deep and abiding love (& respect) for what this country used to represent on the world stage) is wake the heck up and embrace the reality that we see playing out in front of us over the past several decades.

To do that accurately, one must necessarily divorce her/himself from the blinders that party allegiance places over our eyes.  We need to be honest in calling out lies as lies, and truth as truth (though it is extremely rare of late), regardless of what party label the speaker wears.

The facts of the matter is that none of this "regime change" and "democracy projects" have done anything but destabilize the entire region (which is now great portions of two continents).  None of the "Arab spring" was organic (doesn't any one recall the likes of Bernardine Dohrn, Bill Ayers, Medea Benjamin and their cadre on the ground in Egypt, ginning up the revolution?).

How has the concept of national sovereignty virtually disappeared from the global body politic?  (One small clue is the Soros- and (Samantha) Power-developed "Responsibility to Protect" (R2P) that was pushed through the UN a number of years ago.  If you are not familiar with it, look it up, it is quite revealing.)  You don't hear it discussed in the open any longer, after it was exposed, but it provides the underlying theme and justification for what we have been watching in Egypt, Libya, Syria, and elsewhere.  (And bear in mind, it is just another derivative of the "Problem (Crisis) -- Reaction -- Solution" form of the Hegelian Dialectic that is used constantly against free people the world over.)

An ironic twist that I caught about R2P was when Putin essentially used it to justify, in part, his adventurism into the Ukraine.  He stood on the world stage and said that he had to protect the interests of Russian nationals living in the Ukraine.  I found that more than a bit ironic.

Just focus on Syria if you will.  Try to do two things: 1.  Ignore the party labels of those speaking out and setting policy.  2.  Shift your thinking back to the 1960s or 70s, before the will of the UN had been more completely forced onto this nation as the arbiter of "moral" and correct policy making.

Syria is a sovereign nation.  The internal politics and policy of the current leadership may not be palatable to Western sensibilities and thinking.  But they represent those of that nation.  Christians, Alewites, and other muslim sects lived relatively peacefully for decades under both Assad regimes.  Is it appropriate for the West to react against and deter the Syrian regime's attempts to meddle *outside* of its borders?  Absolutely.  But is it appropriate for the West to infiltrate and foment revolution, while arming and funding the so called revolutionaries via covert and illegal operations?  No, for if no other reason than the fact that experience and reality shows us quite clearly that the islamist revolutionaries (essentially the MB by very direct proxy!) are not going to yield anything but the same islamic theocracy that is yet another building block of the caliphate.  One more "failed state" overrun by islamist chaos, like Libya, that does nothing for the native peoples of the nation other than destroy their lives and livelihood.  (Look no further than the Christians, Yazidis, and Kurds from the region, for the results of this forced "regime change.")

Syria is (still) a sovereign nation.  Assad invited the Russians into the country to protect their current ruling government.  That is the reality.  The US and other allied forces have never been invited into the country.  We violate their sovereignty with every dollar, bullet, and islamist that we send across their borders.  How many that are propagandizing on the world stage about this situation on the world stage would draw the same parallel if Israel invited the US military into their country to help fend off an inorganic and externally fomented "revolution?"

Yet Republican citizens are supposed to support these gravely immoral actions because people like Graham, McCain, Ayotte, and countless others bleat on the national stage in support?  Democrat citizens are supposed to do the same because 0bama, Clinton, and their regime are currently executing the past 7 years of it? 

Think about it.  Clearly.

Cui bono?

Have the hundreds of billions of dollars spent, on each of these adventures, by (the taxpayers and their progeny of) the West benefited?

Have the indigenous peoples of each of these toppled nations benefited?

Has the world as a whole benefited from the unbridled chaos and destruction unleashed across two continents (and currently bleeding into three more)?

Someone has.

I largely agree with everything you said here Katz but not for the same reasons you state!  I agree because we got the regime change thing GROSSLY out of order!  We should have been focused on repairing the damage Jimmah! CAAAATa brought about by allowing the mullahs to take control of the government in Iran before undertaking any other "adventure"!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Bigun

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Well this would not be a problem if the jug eared jackass wasn't helping the daesh :nono:

daesh or ISIS is a symptom! Not the disease!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline katzenjammer

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I largely agree with everything you said here Katz but not for the same reasons you state!  I agree because we got the regime change thing GROSSLY out of order!  We should have been focused on repairing the damage Jimmah! CAAAATa brought about by allowing the mullahs to take control of the government in Iran before undertaking any other "adventure"!

Well there you have it.  A "regime change" we forced in 1979.  A pre-cursor of today.

Offline sinkspur

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I'm in a learning curve and evolving on my understanding of the Middle East. It now seems to me that the Washington/media cartel whips up whatever fear is needed in the populous to justify administration policy decisions.

The Bush era regime change and democratization policy in the Middle East has been an unmitigated disaster. If we had done nothing in the Middle East post 9-11, we would be at least $5 trillion less in debt today, with no discernible difference in our security situation.

I just disagree with your last paragraph.  And I don't think Iraq was a disaster; it was stabilized in 2010 and Obama pulled out all troops, creating ISIS and chaos.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Online Bigun

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Well there you have it.  A "regime change" we forced in 1979.  A pre-cursor of today.

I know that it's a useless exercise but I'm going to ask anyway.

What do you think Iran would look like today had we just left the Shah alone?
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline katzenjammer

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I know that it's a useless exercise but I'm going to ask anyway.

What do you think Iran would look like today had we just left the Shah alone?

Some of us remember, most have seen the pictures...






Online Bigun

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And the result of that continuing for another 40 odd years in that region would have been detrimental to US interests?  I think not!

MIllions of Iranian citizens, including the Shah's son and probable current Shah, U. S. educated and permanently aligned with us.

I suppose that I should at this point disclose the fact that I was there, on the ground in the region, when the CAAATA debacle occurred. Spend many weekends in the then BEAUTIFUL Isfahan!
« Last Edit: December 18, 2015, 04:58:10 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline katzenjammer

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And the result of that continuing for another 40 odd years in that region would have been detrimental to US interests?  I think not!

MIllions of Iranian citizens, including the Shah's son and probable current Shah, U. S. educated and permanently aligned with us.

You got it, Bigun!!

And of course, we ripped away the natural counter-balance to a stronger and stronger Iran by removing a stable sovereign Iraq, and "missed" the opportunity in 2009 to support the *organic* (pro-Western) revolutionary forces that were attempting to undo our damage of 40 odd years ago.  And now we "stumble" into making a "deal" to fund and unleash their build-up into a nuclear force.

Amazing how "stoopid" our leaders are.... 

Online Bigun

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You got it, Bigun!!

And of course, we ripped away the natural counter-balance to a stronger and stronger Iran by removing a stable sovereign Iraq, and "missed" the opportunity in 2009 to support the *organic* (pro-Western) revolutionary forces that were attempting to undo our damage of 40 odd years ago.  And now we "stumble" into making a "deal" to fund and unleash their build-up into a nuclear force.

Amazing how "stoopid" our leaders are....

Stoopid or willful?

All this talk about stabilizing that region is just talk as long as the Mullahs continue to reign in Iran! Our military leaders know it and we know it!
 
« Last Edit: December 18, 2015, 05:08:10 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline katzenjammer

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I suppose that I should at this point disclose the fact that I was there, on the ground in the region, when the CAAATA debacle occurred. Spend many weekends in the then BEAUTIFUL Isfahan!

The depth and intensity of your words in this forum have made that clear!!   :patriot:

(The only globe and regional maps that I own still show that country as Persia!!)