Trump calls for 'complete shutdown' on Muslims entering US

[kevindavis007]

Important point which needs to be repeated here.....

Trump has taken the discussion away from TERRORISM and made it all about TRUMP.

That is dangerous, IMO.  His narcissism is destructive.

What I also find disturbing about Trump is his lack of respect to the Constitution..

[Sanguine]

What I also find disturbing about Trump is his lack of respect to the Constitution..

In what way, Kevin?

[famousdayandyear]

A comment and a question:  Why?  Why shouldn't we ban whomever we want?  No one has a right to come here, and certainly not someone who practices an ideology of world domination and anti-American ideas.

And, as to your first point, we can't fix stupid.

Well-stated.  From someone who has obviously done the hard work of studying islamic goals and methods.

[evadR]

After what Obama and his henchmen have done to the Constitution, I'd be amazed if there's anything left to be concerned about.

I'll go Trump one better.
Let's not only put a moratorium on all Arabs entering this country, let round up all the non citizen Arabs in this country and ship their asses out.

[Oceander]

How anal can you get?

It's simply a matter of compiling a list of countries that are verbotem.   You don't even have to see or read the word "Muslim".

And there's precedent for it. 

Drink deep from that kool-aid, boy.  Passports can be faked.  ISIS/Daesh certainly has enough money to buy good fakes of European passports, or Asian, or African, or Central/South American, or ....

[famousdayandyear]

Appears that the islamic forces have read Sun Tzu:


“If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him. If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them. If sovereign and subject are in accord, put division between them. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected .”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

[Scottftlc]

What I also find disturbing about Trump is his lack of respect to the Constitution..

This is the current language of the law of the United States (credit to GAJohnnie who posted this citation earlier in the thread):

Whenever the President finds that the entry of any aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, he may by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or nonimmigrants, or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate.

I refer you to the language "any class of aliens" and "immigrants or non immigrants".

Whether you agree with Trump's "plan" or not is one thing, but Constitutionality is not the issue.  This is current federal law.

[musiclady]

Musiclady, if you have read the quran and hadiths, you simply can't say that.  The tenets of the islamic book of instruction present an ideology that demands world domination (caliphate), and is antithetical to the pretty much everything that our Republic was founded on and represents.

That does not preclude the reality that many Muslims do not support that ideology.

We have friends who are in ministry with Muslims in Europe.  They work with them on a daily basis and know them far better than you or I do.

And they know that the reality is that all Muslims are not radical, and do not believe what others do.

You cannot ban all Muslims for what some believe.

[DCPatriot]

What I also find disturbing about Trump is his lack of respect to the Constitution..

LOL!  You're not fooling anybody.   

[musiclady]

This is a point I tried to make elsewhere. He is sitting somewhere knowing everyone is talking about...

Him.

The news of the past few days should have been on terrorism, and Obama's abject failure.

Now, instead of talking about the pathetic lack of leadership and fecklessness of Barack Obama, everyone is talking about Donald J. Trump.

I repeat............. his narcissism is dangerous.

[musiclady]

Well-stated.  From someone who has obviously done the hard work of studying islamic goals and methods.

Knowing Islamic goals and methods does not prove that every Muslim ascribes to those goals.

[Bigun]

Knowing Islamic goals and methods does not prove that every Muslim ascribes to those goals.

But the fact that these tenants are there in their "religious" texts does!

Islam is a political movement masquerading as a religion and always has been!
!

[Sanguine]

That does not preclude the reality that many Muslims do not support that ideology.

We have friends who are in ministry with Muslims in Europe.  They work with them on a daily basis and know them far better than you or I do.

And they know that the reality is that all Muslims are not radical, and do not believe what others do.

You cannot ban all Muslims for what some believe.

I, too, work daily with Muslims.  I am quite fond of a number of them. 

One either is or is not a Muslim.  Being a Muslim requires one to have certain beliefs.  Not to do so would be like saying "I'm a Christian, but I don't believe in Christ", or "I'm a communist but I believe in private ownership of property and individual sovereignty".

[famousdayandyear]

That does not preclude the reality that many Muslims do not support that ideology.

We have friends who are in ministry with Muslims in Europe.  They work with them on a daily basis and know them far better than you or I do.

And they know that the reality is that all Muslims are not radical, and do not believe what others do.

You cannot ban all Muslims for what some believe.

With all respect, a muslim professes islam by definition.  Just as I profess Christ as a Christian.  It's sort of built in that I follow Christian doctrine and dogma.  Same for islam.

Problem is, I can leave Christianity and profess islam (by my free will).
On the other hand, as a muslim, if I leave islam and profess Christianity, I will be hunted down and very likely killed.

As an American, I choose freedom and free will.  I cannot image being raised in an islamic culture/family/country where I have no choice.  And, to tell the truth, I do not want that culture in my country. 

If a muslim wishes to leave islam and assimilate in my country--I am all for that.  However, 99.9% of the time, that is not the case.  Hence the mosques being built everywhere you look.

[musiclady]

But the fact that these tenants are there in their "religious" texts does!

Islam is a political movement masquerading as a religion and always has been!
!

I realize that, but every Muslim still does not ascribe to those political goals.  Some really do think it's their religion, and don't know their texts well enough to think otherwise.

[Scottftlc]

That does not preclude the reality that many Muslims do not support that ideology.

We have friends who are in ministry with Muslims in Europe.  They work with them on a daily basis and know them far better than you or I do.

And they know that the reality is that all Muslims are not radical, and do not believe what others do.

You cannot ban all Muslims for what some believe.

"All" is a bar so high it is not reasonable to put your fellow citizens lives in danger in order to uphold it.  All Nazis were not anti-American either.  And if the death toll continues to rise with subsequent attacks, would you still think that the risk to American lives was justified?  All Muslims are not active terrorists, but all these terrorists are indeed Muslims. What amount of death then justifies such action? There is no such line?  What if they use dirty bombs or chemical weapons?  Do we still protect the adherents of the religion that is taking this action and is trying to destroy the country?

My point here is that you may not believe the threat is great enough, that the damage cannot be that great. But surely there is a conceivable point at which extreme action becomes warranted.  Otherwise our sensibilities become a suicide pact.

[Sanguine]

I realize that, but every Muslim still does not ascribe to those political goals.  Some really do think it's their religion, and don't know their texts well enough to think otherwise.

That's the point!  The political goals are an integral part of the "religion"!

[musiclady]

With all respect, a muslim professes islam by definition.  Just as I profess Christ as a Christian.  It's sort of built in that I follow Christian doctrine and dogma.  Same for islam.

Problem is, I can leave Christianity and profess islam (by my free will).
On the other hand, as a muslim, if I leave islam and profess Christianity, I will be hunted down and very likely killed.

As an American, I choose freedom and free will.  I cannot image being raised in an islamic culture/family/country where I have no choice.  And, to tell the truth, I do not want that culture in my country. 

If a muslim wishes to leave islam and assimilate in my country--I am all for that.  However, 99.9% of the time, that is not the case.  Hence the mosques being built everywhere you look.

You neglect to mention that many, many people who believe themselves to be Christian don't have a clue as to what most of Scripture says.   Just being a part of a religion doesn't mean you understand its tenets as others do.

Other than that, I agree with you, and I'm certainly not defending Islam.  I'm just defending the reality that there are Muslims who aren't jihadists and looking for the caliphate and Armageddon.

[musiclady]

That's the point!  The political goals are an integral part of the "religion"!

And that doesn't negate my point that many Muslims either don't know, or don't agree with what their political religion means.

[musiclady]

"All" is a bar so high it is not reasonable to put your fellow citizens lives in danger in order to uphold it.  All Nazis were not anti-American either.  And if the death toll continues to rise with subsequent attacks, would you still think that the risk to American lives was justified?  All Muslims are not active terrorists, but all these terrorists are indeed Muslims. What amount of death then justifies such action? There is no such line?  What if they use dirty bombs or chemical weapons?  Do we still protect the adherents of the religion that is taking this action and is trying to destroy the country?

My point here is that you may not believe the threat is great enough, that the damage cannot be that great. But surely there is a conceivable point at which extreme action becomes warranted.  Otherwise our sensibilities become a suicide pact.

Please don't equate my defense of the truth with any kind of complacency about the danger Islam poses.

But throughout this past few days, I have listened to many terrorism experts and experts on Islam who do not agree with Donald Trump's reckless pronouncement.  THEY understand better than you or I the danger, and disagree with Trump vehemently.

[Bigun]

And that doesn't negate my point that many Muslims either don't know, or don't agree with what their political religion means.

Does it really matter that some adherents of the "religion" don't really understand what they are a part of?  Give that some serious thought before you answer.
 

[musiclady]

Does it really matter that some adherents of the "religion" don't really understand what they are a part of?  Give that some serious thought before you answer.

I've given this serious thought for a very, very long time, friend.  Nothing I'm saying is without thought, reflection, or depth of knowledge and reading and listening on the subject.

Now, it's bedtime in the Eastern Time Zone, so I'm signing off until morning.

GOOD discussion  (at least IMHO!)

[NavyCanDo]

I respectfully disagree.  There are sects of Islam and individuals which want no such thing.

To say that every single one of the billion or more Muslims wants the US destroyed is just not factual.

I work with a few Muslims, three Iranian women, and a young gentleman born in Afghanistan,  all four educated here in the US. There is no observance of strict codes of Sharia law in any of them. The women dress like any young American woman, and never a head covering. And I don't think any of them could tell you what the caliphate was.  The gentleman from Afghanistan other than saying he was observing daylight Fasting during their month of fasting, you would not know if he was Christian or Muslim. One may think that about the three women as well, being Iran has quite a large population of Christians. At least one of the women has family in Iran, who flew here for her wedding, and like her they were very moderate and good people. Fun people who loved to laugh and celebrate the event in high fashion.  Trump would ban them from coming here to visit their American families.

We can tighten the travel restrictions for foreign nationals from high risk areas , I have no problem with that at all - but to throw out his statement of banning Muslims from entering the country is ludicrous and bad for America. 
   

[Scottftlc]

Please don't equate my defense of the truth with any kind of complacency about the danger Islam poses.

But throughout this past few days, I have listened to many terrorism experts and experts on Islam who do not agree with Donald Trump's reckless pronouncement.  THEY understand better than you or I the danger, and disagree with Trump vehemently.

To you this is about Trump...to me it is not.  The protection of those exceptions in Muslim community is not, to me, worth the deaths of, tens, hundreds or who knows, even thousands of Americans. If that exceptional Muslim must pay the price to protect Americans, I am fine with that. Your last sentence stated that you think the danger is not great enough to take such steps - that is a legitimate position. Others will think otherwise.

[famousdayandyear]

When I think about all the sacred lives, bodies crucified, crushed--Coptic Christians especially in Syria and Iraq--and the beautiful sites (monestaries, shrines, cathedrals) from the time of Christ BULLDOZED by islamic cretins, and then to hear Americans invite them here with open arms, makes me want to scream.