Author Topic: Rand Paul: Dick Cheney 'Wrong' About Almost Every Foreign Policy Decision  (Read 20315 times)

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Online Bigun

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Re: Rand Paul: Dick Cheney 'Wrong' About Almost Every Foreign Policy Decision
« Reply #150 on: September 07, 2015, 12:56:39 am »
Thank you for bringing up the fact that Iran is actively trying to stop ISIS.

Iran, like the U.S. under Obama's rule, is trying to give the APPEARANCE of doing something while actually DOING very little at all!  They (Iran) will deal with ISIS when it is convenient for them and not before!
« Last Edit: September 07, 2015, 01:00:58 am by Bigun »
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Re: Rand Paul: Dick Cheney 'Wrong' About Almost Every Foreign Policy Decision
« Reply #151 on: September 07, 2015, 01:02:38 am »
Iran, like the U.S. under Obama's rule, is trying to give the APPEARANCE of doing something while actually DOING very little at all!  They will deal with ISIS when it is convenient for them and not before!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_intervention_in_Iraq_(2014–present)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah_involvement_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War

Nothing... of course you know this.

Oceander

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Re: Rand Paul: Dick Cheney 'Wrong' About Almost Every Foreign Policy Decision
« Reply #152 on: September 07, 2015, 01:06:54 am »
There's no way they would have achieved what they have without the firepower they got from us. Do you think our intervention improved the Middle East? Do you think more intervention would improve it?

You have no way of proving that.  You're making the classic logical fallacy of assuming that if a proposition is true, then its converse is true.  That is, if the proposition if A then B is true, then it must be the case that if not-A then not-B is also true.  That is a fallacy.  For example, the proposition if it's raining then the sidewalk is wet is true; however, the proposition if it's not raining then the sidewalk is not wet is not necessarily true because, for example, the sidewalk could also be wet from a hose or sprinkler.  From the if A then B statement you can only draw the contrapositive:  if not B then not A.  Back to the example, from the first proposition you can draw as true the proposition that if the sidewalk is not wet then it is not raining.

For one thing, their ruthlessness is more likely the driver of their success; someone who is not willing to murder one's opponents is much less likely to overcome them as easily.

For another, there is a big difference between getting your hands on high tech American equipment and being able to use it at all, let alone effectively.  The US army trains soldiers for years to use some of our equipment; I find it rather ludicrous to believe that half-literate barbarians could teach themselves to use that same equipment in a few months.

Oceander

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Re: Rand Paul: Dick Cheney 'Wrong' About Almost Every Foreign Policy Decision
« Reply #153 on: September 07, 2015, 01:07:17 am »
Iran, like the U.S. under Obama's rule, is trying to give the APPEARANCE of doing something while actually DOING very little at all!  They (Iran) will deal with ISIS when it is convenient for them and not before!


With that I completely agree.

Offline Dexter

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Re: Rand Paul: Dick Cheney 'Wrong' About Almost Every Foreign Policy Decision
« Reply #154 on: September 07, 2015, 01:17:56 am »
You have no way of proving that.  You're making the classic logical fallacy of assuming that if a proposition is true, then its converse is true.  That is, if the proposition if A then B is true, then it must be the case that if not-A then not-B is also true.  That is a fallacy.  For example, the proposition if it's raining then the sidewalk is wet is true; however, the proposition if it's not raining then the sidewalk is not wet is not necessarily true because, for example, the sidewalk could also be wet from a hose or sprinkler.  From the if A then B statement you can only draw the contrapositive:  if not B then not A.  Back to the example, from the first proposition you can draw as true the proposition that if the sidewalk is not wet then it is not raining.

For one thing, their ruthlessness is more likely the driver of their success; someone who is not willing to murder one's opponents is much less likely to overcome them as easily.

For another, there is a big difference between getting your hands on high tech American equipment and being able to use it at all, let alone effectively.  The US army trains soldiers for years to use some of our equipment; I find it rather ludicrous to believe that half-literate barbarians could teach themselves to use that same equipment in a few months.

I feel it is fairly obvious that the equipment is the reason they're able to do what they do militarily. How would they fight without the weapons and armored vehicles they have? How would they recruit so effectively without the confidence and reassurance the power of that weaponry brings? The equipment is a crucial part of their success. You're right that because it didn't happen we can't actually know, but nevertheless I am very confident that what I said is true. Now, care to answer the two questions I asked? Is the Middle East better off because of our intervention? Would more intervention make it better?

You realize that the Iranian Revolutionary Guard are actually in Iraq, actively fighting ISIS?

They aren't going to fund the enemy that is killing their own soldiers, any more than we'd fund North Korea in the midst of the Korean war.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_intervention_in_Iraq_(2014–present)

You forgot to respond to Godzilla.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2015, 01:40:40 am by Dexter »
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bkepley

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Re: Rand Paul: Dick Cheney 'Wrong' About Almost Every Foreign Policy Decision
« Reply #155 on: September 07, 2015, 01:21:09 am »
I feel it is fairly obvious that the equipment is the reason they're able to do what they do militarily. How would they fight without the weapons and armored vehicles they have? How would they recruit so effectively without the confidence and reassurance the power of that weaponry brings? The equipment was a crucial part of their success. You're right that because it didn't happen we can't actually know, but nevertheless I am very confident that what I said is true. Now, care to answer the two questions I asked? If the Middle East better off because of our intervention? Would more intervention make it better?

You also forgot to respond to Godzilla.

Oops clicked on the wrong thread.

Offline musiclady

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Re: Rand Paul: Dick Cheney 'Wrong' About Almost Every Foreign Policy Decision
« Reply #156 on: September 07, 2015, 01:17:47 pm »
Bush would have done the exact same thing Obama did.

Your ignorance is literally breathtaking.

You know nothing about either man.  You know nothing.   Nothing.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

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Offline Dexter

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Re: Rand Paul: Dick Cheney 'Wrong' About Almost Every Foreign Policy Decision
« Reply #157 on: September 07, 2015, 01:23:52 pm »
Your ignorance is literally breathtaking.

You know nothing about either man.  You know nothing.   Nothing.

This doesn't refute what I said at all. Bush made the agreement to leave in 2011. Why would he do that if he didn't want to leave? Do you think Bush wouldn't have honored his own agreement?
« Last Edit: September 07, 2015, 01:29:02 pm by Dexter »
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Offline musiclady

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Re: Rand Paul: Dick Cheney 'Wrong' About Almost Every Foreign Policy Decision
« Reply #158 on: September 07, 2015, 01:35:01 pm »
This doesn't refute what I said at all. Bush made the agreement to leave in 2011. Why would he do that if he didn't want to leave? Do you think Bush wouldn't have honored his own agreement?

His agreement was dependent on the situation in Iraq.  He would never have pulled all our troops out of the country that his troops had bled and died to liberate and allowed their sacrifice to be lost.

What you don't understand is that Bush loved his country and the troops, and Obama hates both.  What you also don't understand is that the rest of the world (other than leftist ideologues) respected the US under Bush (including Iraq). 

The explosion of ISIS in Iraq lies squarely on the shoulders of the politically driven ideologue, Barack Obama.

Peacenik ideology makes people stupid.  Bush, unlike Obama, wasn't stupid.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2015, 01:35:31 pm by musiclady »
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

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Re: Rand Paul: Dick Cheney 'Wrong' About Almost Every Foreign Policy Decision
« Reply #159 on: September 07, 2015, 01:36:20 pm »
His agreement was dependent on the situation in Iraq.  He would never have pulled all our troops out of the country that his troops had bled and died to liberate and allowed their sacrifice to be lost.

What you don't understand is that Bush loved his country and the troops, and Obama hates both.  What you also don't understand is that the rest of the world (other than leftist ideologues) respected the US under Bush (including Iraq). 

The explosion of ISIS in Iraq lies squarely on the shoulders of the politically driven ideologue, Barack Obama.

Peacenik ideology makes people stupid.  Bush, unlike Obama, wasn't stupid.

 :beer:
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Offline Dexter

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Re: Rand Paul: Dick Cheney 'Wrong' About Almost Every Foreign Policy Decision
« Reply #160 on: September 07, 2015, 01:37:26 pm »
His agreement was dependent on the situation in Iraq.  He would never have pulled all our troops out of the country that his troops had bled and died to liberate and allowed their sacrifice to be lost.

What you don't understand is that Bush loved his country and the troops, and Obama hates both.  What you also don't understand is that the rest of the world (other than leftist ideologues) respected the US under Bush (including Iraq). 

The explosion of ISIS in Iraq lies squarely on the shoulders of the politically driven ideologue, Barack Obama.

Peacenik ideology makes people stupid.  Bush, unlike Obama, wasn't stupid.

You live in a world of make-believe.
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Offline musiclady

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Re: Rand Paul: Dick Cheney 'Wrong' About Almost Every Foreign Policy Decision
« Reply #161 on: September 07, 2015, 01:38:59 pm »
You live in a world of make-believe.

Says the geopolitically daft peacenik.......
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline musiclady

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Re: Rand Paul: Dick Cheney 'Wrong' About Almost Every Foreign Policy Decision
« Reply #162 on: September 07, 2015, 01:39:47 pm »
:beer:

Basic facts, DC.   Historic truth.    :beer:
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Rand Paul: Dick Cheney 'Wrong' About Almost Every Foreign Policy Decision
« Reply #163 on: September 07, 2015, 02:01:39 pm »
His agreement was dependent on the situation in Iraq.  He would never have pulled all our troops out of the country that his troops had bled and died to liberate and allowed their sacrifice to be lost.

Are you sure about this?  I remember the Iraqi's really wanting the US out--especially Maliki--who was taking some real political heat.  The agreement called for a two-step withdrawal, first from the cities in 2009 and then from the rest of Iraq in 2011.  There were no contingency plans for situational changes in the agreement, that I am aware of.  If there were, please point me to that information---I would be interested in reading more on this.

As for the rise of ISIS--here's where the world misses Saddam Hussein.  Although a Sunni, he was a secular dictator and would never have permitted ISIS to flourish and threaten his power.  Saddam left behind a formidable power vacuum.


Offline Dexter

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Re: Rand Paul: Dick Cheney 'Wrong' About Almost Every Foreign Policy Decision
« Reply #164 on: September 07, 2015, 02:08:29 pm »

Are you sure about this?  I remember the Iraqi's really wanting the US out--especially Maliki--who was taking some real political heat.  The agreement called for a two-step withdrawal, first from the cities in 2009 and then from the rest of Iraq in 2011.  There were no contingency plans for situational changes in the agreement, that I am aware of.  If there were, please point me to that information---I would be interested in reading more on this.

As for the rise of ISIS--here's where the world misses Saddam Hussein.  Although a Sunni, he was a secular dictator and would never have permitted ISIS to flourish and threaten his power.  Saddam left behind a formidable power vacuum.

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Offline libertybele

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Re: Rand Paul: Dick Cheney 'Wrong' About Almost Every Foreign Policy Decision
« Reply #165 on: September 07, 2015, 02:38:02 pm »
His agreement was dependent on the situation in Iraq.  He would never have pulled all our troops out of the country that his troops had bled and died to liberate and allowed their sacrifice to be lost.

What you don't understand is that Bush loved his country and the troops, and Obama hates both.  What you also don't understand is that the rest of the world (other than leftist ideologues) respected the US under Bush (including Iraq). 

The explosion of ISIS in Iraq lies squarely on the shoulders of the politically driven ideologue, Barack Obama.

Peacenik ideology makes people stupid.  Bush, unlike Obama, wasn't stupid.

Exactly.  You hit the nail on the head. Bush loves this country; Obama is out to transform it and destroy it.
Romans 12:16-21

Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly, do not claim to be wiser than you are.  Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.  If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all…do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

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Re: Rand Paul: Dick Cheney 'Wrong' About Almost Every Foreign Policy Decision
« Reply #166 on: September 07, 2015, 03:13:58 pm »

Are you sure about this?  I remember the Iraqi's really wanting the US out--especially Maliki--who was taking some real political heat.  The agreement called for a two-step withdrawal, first from the cities in 2009 and then from the rest of Iraq in 2011.  There were no contingency plans for situational changes in the agreement, that I am aware of.  If there were, please point me to that information---I would be interested in reading more on this.
He
As for the rise of ISIS--here's where the world misses Saddam Hussein.  Although a Sunni, he was a secular dictator and would never have permitted ISIS to flourish and threaten his power.  Saddam left behind a formidable power vacuum.
Saddam was a bad guy in a country of bad guys. He was on top. He harbored some bad guys, too. And he was pursuing weapons of mass destruction.

So officially we had justification to take him down. However taking him down, overlooked the post takedown situation. Which of the other bad guys would wind up on top next?

Colin Powell was spot on when he said "you break it, you own it."

We had been smacking Saddam for years under Clinton and then under Bush II. When Bush II took Saddam down, it unleashed unknowns of the other bad guys. It stirred a nasty hornets next.

Colin Powell had more war smarts in his little finger, than Bush II, Cheney and Rumsfeld combined.
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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Rand Paul: Dick Cheney 'Wrong' About Almost Every Foreign Policy Decision
« Reply #167 on: September 07, 2015, 03:32:34 pm »
Saddam was a bad guy in a country of bad guys. He was on top. He harbored some bad guys, too. And he was pursuing weapons of mass destruction.  So officially we had justification to take him down. However taking him down, overlooked the post takedown situation. Which of the other bad guys would wind up on top next?

Colin Powell was spot on when he said "you break it, you own it."

We had been smacking Saddam for years under Clinton and then under Bush II. When Bush II took Saddam down, it unleashed unknowns of the other bad guys. It stirred a nasty hornets next.  Colin Powell had more war smarts in his little finger, than Bush II, Cheney and Rumsfeld combined.

I agree Saddam was a bad guy in a world of bad guys.  Although I'm not an advocate of his means, he did bring a lot of stability to the Middle East, including a watchful eye on Iran.

When we went to war and committed to bringing the Saddam regime to an end, I was one of the voices asking what we were doing and why.  I wasn't against military action as much as I wanted to understand what the short and long-term goals were.  At the time I felt the full force of our assets should have been aimed at Afghanistan and AQ.  But I bit through my tongue because we had kids in theater.

So here we are.  We took down Saddam Hussein convinced that we could nation build a democracy in his place--an idea as stupid as it was lofty and grand.

We destabilized Iraq.  Is it any surprise something far worse has filled Saddam's void? 

bkepley

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Re: Rand Paul: Dick Cheney 'Wrong' About Almost Every Foreign Policy Decision
« Reply #168 on: September 07, 2015, 03:38:25 pm »
I agree Saddam was a bad guy in a world of bad guys.  Although I'm not an advocate of his means, he did bring a lot of stability to the Middle East, including a watchful eye on Iran.

When we went to war and committed to bringing the Saddam regime to an end, I was one of the voices asking what we were doing and why.  I wasn't against military action as much as I wanted to understand what the short and long-term goals were.  At the time I felt the full force of our assets should have been aimed at Afghanistan and AQ.  But I bit through my tongue because we had kids in theater.

So here we are.  We took down Saddam Hussein convinced that we could nation build a democracy in his place--an idea as stupid as it was lofty and grand.

We destabilized Iraq.  Is it any surprise something far worse has filled Saddam's void?

Sadaam was continuing to carry out terrorist activities.  He tried to have GHW Bush assasinated.  Our CIA believed he was working on WMD.  Not my idea of a force of stability.

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Rand Paul: Dick Cheney 'Wrong' About Almost Every Foreign Policy Decision
« Reply #169 on: September 07, 2015, 03:52:08 pm »
Sadaam was continuing to carry out terrorist activities.  He tried to have GHW Bush assasinated.  Our CIA believed he was working on WMD.  Not my idea of a force of stability.

Compare Iraq to prewar conditions.  Would we be seeing videos of ISIS burning people alive and decapitating others?  I think not--because Saddam Hussein would have ripped out the cancer called ISIS by its roots.  It would not have been pretty to watch, but it would have been effective.

That is what stability would look like in the swamp known as the Middle East.

bkepley

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Re: Rand Paul: Dick Cheney 'Wrong' About Almost Every Foreign Policy Decision
« Reply #170 on: September 07, 2015, 04:01:56 pm »
Compare Iraq to prewar conditions.  Would we be seeing videos of ISIS burning people alive and decapitating others?  I think not--because Saddam Hussein would have ripped out the cancer called ISIS by its roots.  It would not have been pretty to watch, but it would have been effective.

That is what stability would look like in the swamp known as the Middle East.

I guess it would have been more stable but no one foresaw ISIS, at least I didn't.  Sadaam's seemed to be one those dictatorships which require instability to survive.

Offline evadR

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Re: Rand Paul: Dick Cheney 'Wrong' About Almost Every Foreign Policy Decision
« Reply #171 on: September 07, 2015, 04:25:12 pm »
His agreement was dependent on the situation in Iraq.  He would never have pulled all our troops out of the country that his troops had bled and died to liberate and allowed their sacrifice to be lost.

What you don't understand is that Bush loved his country and the troops, and Obama hates both.  What you also don't understand is that the rest of the world (other than leftist ideologues) respected the US under Bush (including Iraq). 

The explosion of ISIS in Iraq lies squarely on the shoulders of the politically driven ideologue, Barack Obama.

Peacenik ideology makes people stupid.  Bush, unlike Obama, wasn't stupid.
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Offline Dexter

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Re: Rand Paul: Dick Cheney 'Wrong' About Almost Every Foreign Policy Decision
« Reply #172 on: September 07, 2015, 04:29:01 pm »
I guess it would have been more stable but no one foresaw ISIS, at least I didn't.  Sadaam's seemed to be one those dictatorships which require instability to survive.

Dick knew it was a bad idea in 1994.


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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Rand Paul: Dick Cheney 'Wrong' About Almost Every Foreign Policy Decision
« Reply #173 on: September 07, 2015, 04:52:34 pm »
I guess it would have been more stable but no one foresaw ISIS, at least I didn't.  Sadaam's seemed to be one those dictatorships which require instability to survive. 

No one knew it would be called "ISIS" but the planners knew this was a major upheaval for Iraq and anything could happen.  With a flip of a switch they changed the power structure within Iraq.  If these strategic wizards did not know that the resulting chaos would give rise to an "ISIS", then shame on them.


Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Rand Paul: Dick Cheney 'Wrong' About Almost Every Foreign Policy Decision
« Reply #174 on: September 07, 2015, 04:54:57 pm »
Dick knew it was a bad idea in 1994.

Thanks for posting this.