Author Topic: Judge: Company can survey Iowa man’s land for pipeline work  (Read 1060 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Dexter

  • User banned for personal attacks. --CL
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,624
  • Gender: Male
Judge: Company can survey Iowa man’s land for pipeline work
« on: August 13, 2015, 09:03:39 pm »
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/aug/13/judge-company-can-survey-iowa-mans-land-for-pipeli/

An Iowa man who refused to let a company survey his land for research into a proposed oil pipeline is obligated to let them do so, according to a district court judge. Judge John Haney said in a ruling filed this month that Dakota Access LLC, a unit of Dallas-based Energy Transfer Partners, has the right to temporarily enter Laverne Johnson’s property in Boone County to examine the land, which is in the path of the proposed pipeline. Haney said the move does not interfere with fundamental property rights, and the company provided a required 10-day notice and held an informational meeting.
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
-Socrates

Offline truth_seeker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 28,386
  • Gender: Male
  • Common Sense Results Oriented Conservative Veteran
Re: Judge: Company can survey Iowa man’s land for pipeline work
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2015, 09:41:22 pm »
There must be a lot missing in the article. A lot depends on Iowa law.

Some people mistakenly believe all property ownership is absolute. That is not true.

Land ownership takes place, within the laws of the jurisdiction. In some places, right to mineral access may be held separately from the land.

In other places, rights associated with access for public utilities, as easements, etc. may be part of all deeds to reflect ownership.

In the absence of anything along those lines, this judge may be out of line. He would be effectively making administrative rules, from the bench where no other rule exists.

A lot was not explained in the article.
 
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline Free Vulcan

  • Technical
  • *****
  • Posts: 23,835
  • Gender: Male
  • Ah, the air is so much fresher here...
Re: Judge: Company can survey Iowa man’s land for pipeline work
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2015, 10:10:16 pm »
There must be a lot missing in the article. A lot depends on Iowa law.

Some people mistakenly believe all property ownership is absolute. That is not true.

Land ownership takes place, within the laws of the jurisdiction. In some places, right to mineral access may be held separately from the land.

In other places, rights associated with access for public utilities, as easements, etc. may be part of all deeds to reflect ownership.

In the absence of anything along those lines, this judge may be out of line. He would be effectively making administrative rules, from the bench where no other rule exists.

A lot was not explained in the article.

Basically you got two people fighting this, property rights and environmental groups. The enviros I can understand, but not the property rights not so much. It's a buried pipeline, not visible and once it's buried it's out of sight, out of mind unless there's an accident. Far less intrusive than a road, rail, or even power lines. Not to mention that we got nat gas and other pipelines all over the place already.

Not sure this is a hill I'd die on if it were my land. We got a guy in our county who's a die-hard libertarian that's fighting it because he says it's a corporation and not a legit public project. That may be so, but it's not a taking, just a utility easement. It's hardly a eminent domain issue like a new highway that permanently takes the land from you.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 10:19:32 pm by Free Vulcan »
The Republic is lost.

Offline Dexter

  • User banned for personal attacks. --CL
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,624
  • Gender: Male
Re: Judge: Company can survey Iowa man’s land for pipeline work
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2015, 10:18:49 pm »
out of sight, out of mind unless there's an accident.

I think the property owner should be able to decide whether or not they want to take that risk.
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
-Socrates

Offline Free Vulcan

  • Technical
  • *****
  • Posts: 23,835
  • Gender: Male
  • Ah, the air is so much fresher here...
Re: Judge: Company can survey Iowa man’s land for pipeline work
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2015, 10:24:24 pm »
I think the property owner should be able to decide whether or not they want to take that risk.

You'd turn over the method infrastructure has been built since the founding of this country if you did it that way, and it'd be a very thin argument for an oil pipeline. By far the safest way to transport something that's not particularly toxic to begin with.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 10:24:52 pm by Free Vulcan »
The Republic is lost.

Offline EC

  • Shanghaied Editor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 23,804
  • Gender: Male
  • Cats rule. Dogs drool.
Re: Judge: Company can survey Iowa man’s land for pipeline work
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2015, 10:32:31 pm »
Basically you got two people fighting this, property rights and environmental groups. The enviros I can understand, but not the property rights not so much. It's a buried pipeline, not visible and once it's buried it's out of sight, out of mind unless there's an accident. Far less intrusive than a road, rail, or even power lines. Not to mention that we got nat gas and other pipelines all over the place already.

Not sure this is a hill I'd die on if it were my land. We got a guy in our county who's a die-hard libertarian that's fighting it because he says it's a corporation and not a legit public project. That may be so, but it's not a taking, just a utility easement. It's hardly a eminent domain issue like a new highway that permanently takes the land from you.

Totally agreed up to the bolded bit.

In a way you can say that even a buried pipeline is effectively taking land from you.

What depth is it buried at? Sure, right now the land may be pasture, but what if the owner gets a sweet offer from a real estate developer? Can't build houses on top of an oil pipeline.
How is it going to impact the drainage? If it's a standard pipe lay, it will provide a wick for removing water from the soil - again, not a problem in some cases, a huge problem in others. If the land is in a hollow it's going to get all the water from the higher elevations running down freely through the gravel surround and flooding out the land.
What happens during maintenence checks or a breakage? Again if it's pasture, you don't want to be putting your breeding animals in where they can be disturbed by heavy plant (or strangers) showing up without warning.

None of them are big ways, but they do all have to be considered.
The universe doesn't hate you. Unless your name is Tsutomu Yamaguchi

Avatar courtesy of Oceander

I've got a website now: Smoke and Ink

Offline Dexter

  • User banned for personal attacks. --CL
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,624
  • Gender: Male
Re: Judge: Company can survey Iowa man’s land for pipeline work
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2015, 10:32:57 pm »
You'd turn over the method infrastructure has been built since the founding of this country if you did it that way, and it'd be a very thin argument for an oil pipeline. By far the safest way to transport something that's not particularly toxic to begin with.

In my view the amount of risk is irrelevant. It's still a risk, and the person that owns that property should be able to decide whether or not they want to take the risk.
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
-Socrates

Offline EdinVA

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,584
  • Gender: Male
Re: Judge: Company can survey Iowa man’s land for pipeline work
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2015, 11:35:50 pm »
In my view the amount of risk is irrelevant. It's still a risk, and the person that owns that property should be able to decide whether or not they want to take the risk.

I am with you Dex... Especially since the oil companies have a crappy record at detecting, admitting, remediation and compensating for leaks/spills.
It has been taking months of an oil pipeline leaking before the oil companies have fessed up and by then, the surrounding soil and water has been rendered unusable.
I would do it but there would be a $10 million bond in my name first.

Offline truth_seeker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 28,386
  • Gender: Male
  • Common Sense Results Oriented Conservative Veteran
Re: Judge: Company can survey Iowa man’s land for pipeline work
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2015, 11:40:01 pm »
When possible right of ways for public access go along right of ways for roads, etc.

In my area they are pumping light weight cement into an old sewer or water pipeline, to abandon it. It is in a street.

My home is nearly 50 years old, and we have underground utilities including electric. I have an electric transformer of some type in my back yard, and access to it is in my deed. Also access to read meters in part of my "ownership."

The situation in the article depends on things in the deed, and in laws and regulations. 
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline Free Vulcan

  • Technical
  • *****
  • Posts: 23,835
  • Gender: Male
  • Ah, the air is so much fresher here...
Re: Judge: Company can survey Iowa man’s land for pipeline work
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2015, 12:16:53 am »
In my view the amount of risk is irrelevant. It's still a risk, and the person that owns that property should be able to decide whether or not they want to take the risk.

The problem is eminent domain is well established for infrastructure projects like this, it'd be nearly impossible to reestablish a new legal foundation based on the owners assessment of risk, as everything has risk. I don't know how you would get infrastructure projects if that were the operating principle
The Republic is lost.

Offline truth_seeker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 28,386
  • Gender: Male
  • Common Sense Results Oriented Conservative Veteran
Re: Judge: Company can survey Iowa man’s land for pipeline work
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2015, 12:21:18 am »
The problem is eminent domain is well established for infrastructure projects like this, it'd be nearly impossible to reestablish a new legal foundation based on the owners assessment of risk, as everything has risk. I don't know how you would get infrastructure projects if that were the operating principle
This single case is NOT reinventing the wheel. It will turn on state, county, city laws, the deed to the property in question etc.

"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline Dexter

  • User banned for personal attacks. --CL
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,624
  • Gender: Male
Re: Judge: Company can survey Iowa man’s land for pipeline work
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2015, 12:38:01 am »
This single case is NOT reinventing the wheel. It will turn on state, county, city laws, the deed to the property in question etc.

I don't think that company has a contract with the government. I didn't realize there are laws that obligate people to let private companies onto their land.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2015, 12:39:05 am by Dexter »
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
-Socrates

Offline Free Vulcan

  • Technical
  • *****
  • Posts: 23,835
  • Gender: Male
  • Ah, the air is so much fresher here...
Re: Judge: Company can survey Iowa man’s land for pipeline work
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2015, 12:48:55 am »
I don't think that company has a contract with the government. I didn't realize there are laws that obligate people to let private companies onto their land.

 It's state by state since Kelo. Iowa has no laws stopping eminent domain for private projects that are ok'd by the Governor.
The Republic is lost.

Offline raml

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,384
Re: Judge: Company can survey Iowa man’s land for pipeline work
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2015, 02:56:15 am »
Electric and gas companies not owned by the government still have easement rights on your land that has been for a long time all my homes have had easement rights given to different privately owned companies such as AT&T, Edison, Empire electric, and consumer gas. There has been trouble that happened at one of my homes that needed to be fixed and they tore up our yard fixed it and resodded it like new. This is not something new and like people have been saying that this most likely is covered in their deed I know it was in ours or is law in the state.

Offline truth_seeker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 28,386
  • Gender: Male
  • Common Sense Results Oriented Conservative Veteran
Re: Judge: Company can survey Iowa man’s land for pipeline work
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2015, 04:56:26 am »
Electric and gas companies not owned by the government still have easement rights on your land that has been for a long time all my homes have had easement rights given to different privately owned companies such as AT&T, Edison, Empire electric, and consumer gas. There has been trouble that happened at one of my homes that needed to be fixed and they tore up our yard fixed it and resodded it like new. This is not something new and like people have been saying that this most likely is covered in their deed I know it was in ours or is law in the state.
Thanks. I happen to be a real estate broker, but I don't want to shout that I know it all, am an expert or worse still a lawyer.

But this stuff is quite ordinary and down to earth. People who own property and paid attention usually understand.

We once had a major power outage. To remedy it, the electric company replaced several transformers, including the one in my back yard. The workers were in my back yard in the middle of the night.

My guess is had I gone out with my shotgun, the police would have arrived with copies of MY DEED stating the right of the company to perform necessary repairs, according to their easement.

The origins of ancient laws come from land use, water rights, crimes against property and persons.
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln