Author Topic: Elian Gonzalez at 21  (Read 1997 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online DCPatriot

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46,334
  • Gender: Male
  • "...and the winning number is...not yours!
Elian Gonzalez at 21
« on: May 22, 2015, 12:35:08 pm »
Elian Gonzalez at 21
Mark Davis 5/22/15



The recent surrender of America’s tough line against Cuban communism got me to thinking about various moments in Cuban-American history. Not long ago, I noted the 21st birthday of Elian Gonzalez, the boy returned to his father in Cuba after his mother died in a 1999 attempt to bring him to America in a small aluminum boat.

The talk-show wars were furious during that winter and spring of fifteen years ago. I explained to callers that I shared their wish for Elian to grow up in America, and their lament at the prospect of returning him to the communist dictatorship of his birth.

But my bottom line was this, and it has not changed: The moment his mother died, his father became the sole decision-maker in his life. No matter how much we might have wished for the young lad to grow up enjoying fast food, iPhones and liberty, there was never a basis for denying his father’s right to raise the son taken away from him.

This was a classic battle of conflicting values, in which a natural wish for a son to be returned to his father was complicated mightily by the father’s location in Castro’s Cuba.

This was a disconnect of sufficient scope to cause a large section of America to give a collective backhand to the parental rights of Elian’s father Juan Miguel, and begin rooting loudly for the boy to be raised by his relatives in Miami.

the rest at:

http://townhall.com/columnists/markdavis/2015/05/22/elian-gonzalez-at-21-n2002479?utm_source=thdaily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nl&newsletterad=

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Online DCPatriot

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46,334
  • Gender: Male
  • "...and the winning number is...not yours!
Re: Elian Gonzalez at 21
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2015, 12:38:07 pm »
See?

All that bickering and fighting on the forum(s) back then....for what?

Now that he's 21, he can make his own decision on where he wants to spend the rest of his life.

Father's Rights were upheld.  Too bad it took a Bubba to lead the way on it.
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,623
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
Re: Elian Gonzalez at 21
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2015, 01:41:03 pm »
See?

All that bickering and fighting on the forum(s) back then....for what?

Now that he's 21, he can make his own decision on where he wants to spend the rest of his life.

Father's Rights were upheld.  Too bad it took a Bubba to lead the way on it.

Which is why there are people still dying on the straits of Florida their boats sunk by Cuban Coast Guard for being 21 and making their own decision on where they want to live.

Quote
Cuba’s Coast Guard sank a boat carrying 32 Cubans who were trying to reach the Florida coast, according to a woman who survived and whose husband is missing.

Masiel González Castellano told reporters in a telephone conversation from Matanzas, Cuba, that her husband, Leosbel Díaz Beoto, is missing after falling from the boat that was repeatedly charged and hit by a boat manned by the Cuban Coast Guard.

“We were screaming and crying for help as the boat was sinking. But they ignored us. Instead, they continued charging against our boat. Some people dove in the water and others stayed aboard as the boat sank,” said González, who was contacted during a press conference hosted in Miami by the Democracy Movement. “They knew there were children aboard, but continued to charge against us. They didn’t care.”

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas/cuba/article4711515.html#storylink=cpy

Your blind spot on this is immense.

Neither Juan Miguel then, nor Elian now are speaking freely.

The only rights that were upheld were a dictator's right to control the people of the country he rules. You have no idea what Elian's father truly wanted. You only heard what he was told to say by the Castro dictatorship.

Are you so naive that you believe that the Castro's history of barbaric and total suppression was suddenly and magically suspended and they approached Juan Miguel and decided to gently ask him what it was that he wanted them to do about Elian?
« Last Edit: May 22, 2015, 01:42:11 pm by Luis Gonzalez »
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Online Bigun

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51,874
  • Gender: Male
  • Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God
    • The FairTax Plan
Re: Elian Gonzalez at 21
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2015, 01:45:35 pm »
Which is why there are people still dying on the straits of Florida their boats sunk by Cuban Coast Guard for being 21 and making their own decision on where they want to live.

Your blind spot on this is immense.

Neither Juan Miguel then, nor Elian now are speaking freely.

The only rights that were upheld were a dictator's right to control the people of the country he rules. You have no idea what Elian's father truly wanted. You only heard what he was told to say by the Castro dictatorship.

Are you so naive that you believe that the Castro's history of barbaric and total suppression was suddenly and magically suspended and they approached Juan Miguel and decided to gently ask him what it was that he wanted them to do about Elian?

In this matter you and I are in complete agreement Luis!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline alicewonders

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,021
  • Gender: Female
  • Live life-it's too short to butt heads w buttheads
Re: Elian Gonzalez at 21
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2015, 02:56:36 pm »
In this matter you and I are in complete agreement Luis!

Me too!

Any news coming out of Cuba should still be viewed as propoganda.  The dictatorship is still in charge.

Don't tread on me.   8888madkitty

We told you Trump would win - bigly!

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,623
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
Re: Elian Gonzalez at 21
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2015, 06:39:23 pm »
Me too!

Any news coming out of Cuba should still be viewed as propoganda.  The dictatorship is still in charge.

The idea that the same administration who orchestrated the siege at the Branch Davidian complex in Waco, acted in the best interest of parental rights in the case of Elian Gonzalez is absurd. The end game in both was eerily similar.

The connection between Dwayne Andreas and his ADM group, the Clintons and the Castro brothers is too thick to ignore.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Online DCPatriot

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46,334
  • Gender: Male
  • "...and the winning number is...not yours!
Re: Elian Gonzalez at 21
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2015, 07:27:47 pm »
Which is why there are people still dying on the straits of Florida their boats sunk by Cuban Coast Guard for being 21 and making their own decision on where they want to live.

Your blind spot on this is immense.

Neither Juan Miguel then, nor Elian now are speaking freely.

The only rights that were upheld were a dictator's right to control the people of the country he rules. You have no idea what Elian's father truly wanted. You only heard what he was told to say by the Castro dictatorship.

Are you so naive that you believe that the Castro's history of barbaric and total suppression was suddenly and magically suspended and they approached Juan Miguel and decided to gently ask him what it was that he wanted them to do about Elian?


Luis, I don't give a rat's a$$ about yesterday or yesteryear in Cuba.

Kidnapping a child whose father wants him returned home, just because 'you' want him to grow up in the United States is what's naive.

What I meant was that now that The Great One has normalized relations with Cuba, that perhaps he will be able to visit the USA and/or live here.

The Castro brothers aren't going to live forever.

And your speculation is no damned different than mine regarding Elian's father's statements regarding the issue at the time.
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,623
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
Re: Elian Gonzalez at 21
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2015, 09:26:32 pm »

Luis, I don't give a rat's a$$ about yesterday or yesteryear in Cuba.

Yet here you are posting this article.

Quote
Kidnapping a child whose father wants him returned home, just because 'you' want him to grow up in the United States is what's naive.

Who "kidnapped" a child exactly?

Quote
What I meant was that now that The Great One has normalized relations with Cuba, that perhaps he will be able to visit the USA and/or live here.

English is a second language to me, so I often misunderstand things that other say. You're saying that this: 

"Now that he's 21, he can make his own decision on where he wants to spend the rest of his life."

... is the same as this:

What I meant was that now that The Great One has normalized relations with Cuba, that perhaps he will be able to visit the USA and/or live here.

I can tell you, with no doubt, that NO ONE is allowed to leave Cuba without permission from the government, under any circumstances, and for no reason. What Obama has done here has changed nothing in Cuba or for Cubans who want to travel or leave the Island.

Quote
The Castro brothers aren't going to live forever.

The next ones in charge don't seem any less eager to treat Cuba as their private plantation.

Quote
And your speculation is no damned different than mine regarding Elian's father's statements regarding the issue at the time.

I made no speculations. I speak from a point of knowledge.

I live in a country founded on the lofty and noble idea that "all men are created equal that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

I think all people are born with their own individual and independent right to be free, and that has Justice been delivered in Elian's case, with "justice" being defied as it was by the Institutes of Justinian over 2,000 years ago and as it is felt and understood by all who understand human relations and human rights, is--

"Constans et perpetua voluntas, jus suum cuique tribuendi."

"The constant and perpetual will to secure to every one HIS OWN right."

Elian's OWN right demanded that his inalienable right to Liberty be secured by our government, and it wasn't.

You think that inalienable rights can be modified by legal code, and people aren't necessarily "born" with rights. They only have them when the government says that they are adults.

His custodial parent died trying to bring him to freedom and a better life.

I "side" with her.

His out of wedlock father, whose real opinion on the subject we may never know, and the Clinton/Reno cabal whose illegal seizure of Elian despite a ruling by the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals that essentially said that since the INS had already designated the boy’s Miami family as his guardian–and they requested political asylum on his behalf–the INS can’t just arbitrarily remove guardianship. By taking the boy away from his guardians without a court order–again, at gunpoint on the Saturday before Easter–the Justice Department (via INS) was violating the 11th Circuit Court’s order and thus should have been held in contempt of court was roundly criticized by most American Constitutional experts, including Laurence Tribe, worked hard to return him to a country were no one's rights are respected.

You side with them.

We understand each other.

Quote
"Under the Constitution, it is axiomatic that the executive branch has no unilateral authority to enter people's homes forcibly to remove innocent individuals without taking the time to seek a warrant or other order from a judge or magistrate (absent the most extraordinary need to act). Not only the Fourth Amendment but also well-established constitutional principles of family privacy require that the disinterested judiciary test the correctness of the executive branch's claimed right to enter and seize.

Although a federal court had ordered that Elian not be removed from the country pending a determination of his asylum petition, and although a court had ruled that the Immigration and Naturalization Service could exercise custody and control of Elian for the time being, no judge or neutral magistrate had issued the type of warrant or other authority needed for the executive branch to break into the home to seize the child. The agency had no more right to do so than any parent who has been awarded custody would have a right to break and enter for such a purpose. Indeed, the I.N.S. had not even secured a judicial order, as opposed to a judicially unreviewed administrative one, compelling the Miami relatives to turn Elian over." - Laurence Tribe

I seem to recall much criticism about Obama's unconstitutional power grabs and his over reach of Executive powers.

But you cheer Clinton doing the same?

This incident had nothing to do with "father's rights", Elian's parents never married and out-of-wedlock fathers have few (if any) rights under Florida law, certainly none under Federal law.This was an immigration case, and immigration law was on Elian's side.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2015, 09:29:13 pm by Luis Gonzalez »
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Online DCPatriot

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46,334
  • Gender: Male
  • "...and the winning number is...not yours!
Re: Elian Gonzalez at 21
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2015, 10:29:49 pm »

Yet here you are posting this article.


BFD!!   Stop being so obtuse with me.  Homey don't play that.

I posted the article because it's his 21st birthday and the author and I agreed that a biological father's hand is better than in-laws.  Especially in-laws in a not-so-friendly relationship that arises in a breakup.

I believe that Father's Rights are significant.  Especially if you are writing a monthly check under threat of being taken into custody.

And please don't go off on a tangent again.   I'm not necessarily speaking of Elian's father as it pertains to financial support.

And I'm too old and cranky to be chasing squirrels with somebody with your intellect, my friend.

Bottom line...if the father is alive and can prove that he has had an ongoing relationship...even if it's a monthly visit...IMO, his wants trump Auntie's.


My heart breaks for the headless little toddler in her blue flowered bloody dress, compliments of ISIS.  Yet, I know we can't save them all.

Compared to that, Elian has it good.   



"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,623
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
Re: Elian Gonzalez at 21
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2015, 03:57:44 am »
BFD!!   Stop being so obtuse with me.  Homey don't play that.

I posted the article because it's his 21st birthday and the author and I agreed that a biological father's hand is better than in-laws.  Especially in-laws in a not-so-friendly relationship that arises in a breakup.

I believe that Father's Rights are significant.  Especially if you are writing a monthly check under threat of being taken into custody.

And please don't go off on a tangent again.   I'm not necessarily speaking of Elian's father as it pertains to financial support.

And I'm too old and cranky to be chasing squirrels with somebody with your intellect, my friend.

Bottom line...if the father is alive and can prove that he has had an ongoing relationship...even if it's a monthly visit...IMO, his wants trump Auntie's.


My heart breaks for the headless little toddler in her blue flowered bloody dress, compliments of ISIS.  Yet, I know we can't save them all.

Compared to that, Elian has it good.

I'm being obtuse?

You're in here carrying on about "father's rights", as if the Elian affair was a custody battle.

A custody battle settled by the Federal government by using armed goons from the Immigration and Naturalization Service.

How often are custody battles settled by the Feds and the INS?

Ahhh... never, because custody issues ("father's rights" issues) are settled in State family Courts.

This was never about "father's rights". The whole Elian/father's rights meme is the precursor to today's "HANDS UP, DON'T SHOOT"! thing.

Quote
I believe that Father's Rights are significant.  Especially if you are writing a monthly check under threat of being taken into custody.

You're projecting here.

I think you're conflating a personal experience with the Elian case. Juan Miguel was under no such duress, and by all reports had very little responsibility toward Elian, financial or otherwise.

Then there's this issue with you taking the attitude that the ends justified the means in Elian's case. Clinton's, Reno's and Holder's illegal and arguably unconstitutional actions are OK because Bubba and Fidel did the right thing and stood up for "father's rights".

This puts you on level terrain with those who support Obama's illegal immigration Executive Orders.

They think he's doing the right thing too.

Quote
"Bottom line...if the father is alive and can prove that he has had an ongoing relationship...even if it's a monthly visit...IMO, his wants trump Auntie's.

My heart breaks for the headless little toddler in her blue flowered bloody dress, compliments of ISIS.  Yet, I know we can't save them all."

His "wants"?

How about Elian's rights and Elian's best interest?

Family Courts will decide custody cases based on what is in the best interest of the children more often than on the parent's "wants".

You're right... we can't save them all.

But when you pluck one out of the shark-infested waters, against all odds, why should we then throw him back into a den of jackals?

"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Paladin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,476
  • Gender: Male
Re: Elian Gonzalez at 21
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2015, 04:37:36 am »
When it comes to Elian I am indifferent to anything beyond the fact that his mother gave her life that he might live freely.
Members of the anti-Trump cabal: Now that Mr Trump has sewn up the nomination, I want you to know I feel your pain.

Online DCPatriot

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46,334
  • Gender: Male
  • "...and the winning number is...not yours!
Re: Elian Gonzalez at 21
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2015, 05:05:31 am »
It's fascinating, Luis.

I like to think that we've been friends of like mind through all these years, because we're both pragmatic, rather than emotive, on most issues.

On this one, buddy, you're all emotion.  As Obama would say, "There's not a hint..." of pragmatism to be found anywhere in your argument.

You can cite custody law and dazzle me with 'facts' to suit your argument....but the argument stems from your love of freedom and the USA.

...worthy virtues.

I hated Bill Clinton with a vengeance.  The only event I literally applauded him over was Elian Gonzales.

When one parent of a MINOR child dies, the remaining parent gets custody if they so desire.   No matter how much you dislike the notion.

If she died trying to get to Florida or if she died crossing the street in Havana...it shouldn't make a difference   "Shouldn't" being the key word of course.   :laugh:

"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,623
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
Re: Elian Gonzalez at 21
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2015, 05:51:34 am »
It's fascinating, Luis.

I like to think that we've been friends of like mind through all these years, because we're both pragmatic, rather than emotive, on most issues.

On this one, buddy, you're all emotion.  As Obama would say, "There's not a hint..." of pragmatism to be found anywhere in your argument.

You can cite custody law and dazzle me with 'facts' to suit your argument....but the argument stems from your love of freedom and the USA.

...worthy virtues.

I hated Bill Clinton with a vengeance.  The only event I literally applauded him over was Elian Gonzales.

When one parent of a MINOR child dies, the remaining parent gets custody if they so desire.   No matter how much you dislike the notion.

If she died trying to get to Florida or if she died crossing the street in Havana...it shouldn't make a difference   "Shouldn't" being the key word of course.   :laugh:

Are you serious?

Don't patronize me.

You are carrying on about "writing a monthly check under threat of being taken into custody" and you accuse me of being emotional rather than pragmatic?

What do child support payments have to do with this case?

While you're at it, stop avoiding discussing this unique position of yours that has you arguing that the case was not an immigration case, but rather a custody dispute that was settled by the Immigration and Naturalization services under direct orders of the Attorney General of the United States and in violation of a US Circuit Court that had recognized Elian's right to ask for asylum, then go back a few responses and tell me who "kidnapped" Elian.

Quote
When one parent of a MINOR child dies, the remaining parent gets custody if they so desire.   No matter how much you dislike the notion.

Yeah... well.. not necessarily.

Quote
"In almost every state, the mother of a child born out of wedlock automatically has 100% custody rights until paternity is established. However, even after paternity is established, it is the obligation of the father, if he wants custodial rights or parenting time with the child, to commence a court proceeding. In other words, short of an agreement between the parties, the only way the father can get any rights to the child is by going to court. Once there, the court must determine what is in the "best interest of the child.""

The law is what the law is, not what you wish it to be.

Elian was an illegitimate child. His mother never married Juan Miguel.

Juan Miguel never went to any Court to try and get rights to the child.

He never even provided a blood sample to prove that he was in fact Elian's father.

This case was about the Clinton's continued disdain for the law.

Laurence Tribe wrote about the raid in a NYT OpEd a few days after the event:

Quote
Under the Constitution, it is axiomatic that the executive branch has no unilateral authority to enter people's homes forcibly to remove innocent individuals without taking the time to seek a warrant or other order from a judge or magistrate (absent the most extraordinary need to act). Not only the Fourth Amendment but also well-established constitutional principles of family privacy require that the disinterested judiciary test the correctness of the executive branch's claimed right to enter and seize.

Although a federal court had ordered that Elian not be removed from the country pending a determination of his asylum petition, and although a court had ruled that the Immigration and Naturalization Service could exercise custody and control of Elian for the time being, no judge or neutral magistrate had issued the type of warrant or other authority needed for the executive branch to break into the home to seize the child. The agency had no more right to do so than any parent who has been awarded custody would have a right to break and enter for such a purpose. Indeed, the I.N.S. had not even secured a judicial order, as opposed to a judicially unreviewed administrative one, compelling the Miami relatives to turn Elian over.

The Justice Department points out that the agents who stormed the Miami home were armed not only with guns but with a search warrant. But it was not a warrant to seize the child. Elian was not lost, and it is a semantic sleight of hand to compare his forcible removal to the seizure of evidence, which is what a search warrant is for.

To be sure, our courts have allowed immigration officials to obtain areawide warrants to search workplaces for illegal aliens, and Congress has by statute empowered immigration officials to search, interrogate and arrest people without warrants in order to prevent unlawful entry into the country. But no one suspects that Elian is here illegally.

In fact, it's hard to see any significant immigration-related or other federal interest in whether Elian was reunited with his father now or after asylum is denied (if that is the outcome). And, should asylum be granted, Elian's father might still be granted custody and could then take the boy to Cuba with him if he so chose; asylum only means permission to stay in the United States and is not a requirement to stay.

Either way, Ms. Reno's decision to take the law as well as the child into her own hands seems worse than a political blunder. Even if well intended, her decision strikes at the heart of constitutional government and shakes the safeguards of liberty.

The Federal interest was fear that Elian would be granted asylum, and that a family Court would find that it was in Elian's best interest to remain in the US, and grant custody to his Uncle.

Quote
I hated Bill Clinton with a vengeance.  The only event I literally applauded him over was Elian Gonzalesz.

I have a cousin who hates Obama with equal vengeance. She applauded his EO granting amnesty to her boyfriend.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx