Author Topic: Why do GOP candidates keep stumbling on evolution? By Byron York  (Read 17602 times)

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Offline Lando Lincoln

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Re: Why do GOP candidates keep stumbling on evolution? By Byron York
« Reply #175 on: February 17, 2015, 08:39:48 pm »
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Offline Dexter

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Re: Why do GOP candidates keep stumbling on evolution? By Byron York
« Reply #176 on: February 17, 2015, 08:40:40 pm »
I don't think it was.

There are a lot of very stubborn people here; it's not usually that easy.  :laugh:
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Offline olde north church

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Re: Why do GOP candidates keep stumbling on evolution? By Byron York
« Reply #177 on: February 17, 2015, 08:45:24 pm »
Does anybody know how much resource is devoted to proving young earth Biblical creationism, who funds it, which respected institutions administer it, etc? Here is the leading proponent of "creationism."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Ham

and members of the supporting staff

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_Broadcasting_Network#Wealth_and_transparency

Down through the ages, those designated to preserve religious mythology have been supported by the community, generally stayed inside, while the commoners labored outdoors in harsh weather to provide food and others things.

Virtually all faith systems have creation myths, and keepers of those myths. Trinity and Ham are the present day keepers of the American literal Biblical creation myth system.

Compare that to the tens of thousands of serious scientists, with real higher degrees, with the foregoing.

Ham and Nye?  Two cut from the same cloth.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline GourmetDan

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Re: Why do GOP candidates keep stumbling on evolution? By Byron York
« Reply #178 on: February 17, 2015, 08:48:44 pm »
Carling said:
That's probably a good thing for you, because he's ripping you and your incorrect beliefs on adaptation to shreds.

NO ONE IS RIPPING ANYONE ANYONE APART BECAUSE THERE IS NO ONE HERE WHO WAS AN EYEWITNESS TO CREATION OR EVOLUTION.

Tis OK Luis.

Carling probably noticed you moving the goalposts, but not many others did...


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Offline DCPatriot

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Re: Why do GOP candidates keep stumbling on evolution? By Byron York
« Reply #179 on: February 17, 2015, 09:02:46 pm »
Actually, I did.  It had something to do with radial evolution, rather than linear.  You want to believe the earth is 7,000 years old?  Have at it.  All these fairy stories and sky pilots keep us down.
I believe in a Creator.  Whether it was a big Jew in the sky, a alien from another planet, a "being" that is extradimensional.  I'm here now.  What there was before me, I can't prove it happened.  When I'm gone, it's really not going to matter.  You worry about yourself and Hell and guys with horns.  Call me "Jimmy Crack Corn".  I don't care.

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Offline Carling

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Re: Why do GOP candidates keep stumbling on evolution? By Byron York
« Reply #180 on: February 17, 2015, 09:16:19 pm »
I'm really trying to be polite here, but if you insist on being an ass, then we're done.

NO ONE IS RIPPING ANYONE ANYONE APART BECAUSE THERE IS NO ONE HERE WHO WAS AN EYEWITNESS TO CREATION OR EVOLUTION.

We are all simply stating what our beliefs are.

To the best of my understanding there are no evolutionary biologists, paleontologists, biogeographists, ichnologists, morphologists, developmental or evolutionary biologists.

If there are any one of those in the crowd, please stand up and wave then clarify some of this contentious issues for us.

I've come to the conclusions that I've come to on the subject by reading both sides of the issue, and in my mind, the points that I've made are the most logical answers to the quyestions that I asked over the years.

You go on cheerleading Dan.

The pom-poms look adorable.

How was I being an ass?  I didn't attack you personally, but I will say that your views on adaptation are incorrect, at least how you present them.

I'm not "cheerleading" GourmetDan, either, and I don't have pom-poms.  Was I "cheerleading" you when I pointed out the racial slurs that your were the recipient of just last week on this board?

 Childish...
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Offline DCPatriot

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Re: Why do GOP candidates keep stumbling on evolution? By Byron York
« Reply #181 on: February 17, 2015, 09:29:27 pm »


The Maned Wolf - South America
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline aligncare

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Re: Why do GOP candidates keep stumbling on evolution? By Byron York
« Reply #182 on: February 17, 2015, 09:42:49 pm »
Love the pic. What a wonderful example of God's creation.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Why do GOP candidates keep stumbling on evolution? By Byron York
« Reply #183 on: February 17, 2015, 10:28:15 pm »
How was I being an ass?  I didn't attack you personally, but I will say that your views on adaptation are incorrect, at least how you present them.

I'm not "cheerleading" GourmetDan, either, and I don't have pom-poms.  Was I "cheerleading" you when I pointed out the racial slurs that your were the recipient of just last week on this board?

 Childish...

You were "embarrassed" for me?

That's rather personal.

I was being "schooled" by someone?

That's rather sophomoric.

No one can "know" what truth is on this subject (you made that point) yet you apparently know enough that you know I am wrong?

That's inconsistent.

Again, my definition of adaptation vs. evolution is pulled (pretty much verbatim) from paleontology and evolutionary biology online texts. They don't jibe with the definitions found on intelligent design websites, but I chose to follow the scientific definitions of scientific terms.

"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline DCPatriot

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Re: Why do GOP candidates keep stumbling on evolution? By Byron York
« Reply #184 on: February 17, 2015, 10:35:17 pm »
Love the pic. What a wonderful example of God's creation.

Thanks, AC. 

Actually, I put it up to show/suggest what hybridization can produce.

On the surface it looks like a cross between a fox and a deer. 

Is a human actually a hybrid of sorts introduced by a higher intelligence (God).

Looking around on the planet for proof works for me.

I've followed this thread from the start.  And, I'm smart enough to remain in lurk mode when the 'big brains' come out and play.

Wouldn't know a linear vs radial in the context of evolution if it jumped up and bit me on the a$$.

"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline GourmetDan

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Re: Why do GOP candidates keep stumbling on evolution? By Byron York
« Reply #185 on: February 17, 2015, 10:46:47 pm »
Again, my definition of adaptation vs. evolution is pulled (pretty much verbatim) from paleontology and evolutionary biology online texts. They don't jibe with the definitions found on intelligent design websites, but I chose to follow the scientific definitions of scientific terms.

There is, of course, nothing empirical about using 'scientific definitions of scientific terms'.  That is a philosophical choice no different than any other.

Science is based on the philosophy of naturalism and will return a 'naturalistic' result regardless of the evidence, not because of it...


"It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door."

Richard Lewontin - Geneticist

« Last Edit: February 17, 2015, 10:49:31 pm by GourmetDan »
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Why do GOP candidates keep stumbling on evolution? By Byron York
« Reply #186 on: February 17, 2015, 10:54:39 pm »
Thanks, AC. 

Actually, I put it up to show/suggest what hybridization can produce.

On the surface it looks like a cross between a fox and a deer. 

Is a human actually a hybrid of sorts introduced by a higher intelligence (God).

Looking around on the planet for proof works for me.

I've followed this thread from the start.  And, I'm smart enough to remain in lurk mode when the 'big brains' come out and play.

Wouldn't know a linear vs radial in the context of evolution if it jumped up and bit me on the a$$.

The bite marks would be completely different.
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Offline Dexter

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Re: Why do GOP candidates keep stumbling on evolution? By Byron York
« Reply #187 on: February 17, 2015, 11:29:37 pm »
The bite marks would be completely different.

 :laugh:
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Offline Carling

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Re: Why do GOP candidates keep stumbling on evolution? By Byron York
« Reply #188 on: February 18, 2015, 12:23:03 am »


Again, my definition of adaptation vs. evolution is pulled (pretty much verbatim) from paleontology and evolutionary biology online texts. They don't jibe with the definitions found on intelligent design websites, but I chose to follow the scientific definitions of scientific terms.

Correct.  It's subjective.  What isn't subjective is you insisting that Darwin's finches are an example of evolution, at least in terms of how man came to be.
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Offline musiclady

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Re: Why do GOP candidates keep stumbling on evolution? By Byron York
« Reply #189 on: February 18, 2015, 12:37:42 am »
I don't think it was.

Hmmmmmm.................. you may be right about that, Lando....   :dx1:
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Why do GOP candidates keep stumbling on evolution? By Byron York
« Reply #190 on: February 18, 2015, 03:16:53 am »
Correct.  It's subjective.  What isn't subjective is you insisting that Darwin's finches are an example of evolution, at least in terms of how man came to be.

Dude, seriously, get a grip.

Darwin's finches are an example of the evolution of the finches in the Galapagos Island.

How man came to be is also evolution, but it has nothing to do with finches.

What I've read, both pro and con, has led me to this conclusion.

We're done.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Why do GOP candidates keep stumbling on evolution? By Byron York
« Reply #191 on: February 18, 2015, 03:28:11 am »
Reading assignment.

Quote
Unpredictable Evolution in a 30-Year Study of Darwin’s Finches
Peter R. Grant and B. Rosemary Grant

Evolution can be predicted in the short term from a knowledge of selection and inheritance. However, in the long term evolution is unpredictable because environments, which determine the directions and magnitudes of selection coefficients, fluctuate unpredictably. These two features of evolution, the predictableand unpredictable, are demonstrated in a study of two populations of Darwin’s finches on the Galapagos island of Daphne Major. From 1972 to 2001, Geospiza fortis (medium ground finch) and Geospiza scandens (cactus finch) changed several times in body size and two beak traits. Natural selection occurred frequently in both species and varied from unidirectional to oscillating, episodic to gradual. Hybridization occurred repeatedly though rarely, resulting in elevated phenotypic variances in G. scandens and a change in beak shape. The phenotypic states of both species at the end of the 30-year study could not have been predicted at the beginning. Continuous, long-term studies are needed to detect and  interpret rare but important events and nonuniform evolutionary change.

ftp://ftp.soest.hawaii.edu/engels/Stanley/Textbook_update/Science_296/Grantz-02.pdf

From Wikipedia

Peter Raymond Grant and Barbara Rosemary Grant, a married couple, are both British evolutionary biologists at Princeton University; each holds the position of Emeritus Professor. They are noted for their work concerning Darwin's finches on the Galápagos Island named Daphne Major. The Grants have spent six months of the year each year since 1973 capturing, tagging, and taking blood samples of the finches on the island.

The Grants were the subject of the book The Beak of the Finch: A Story of Evolution in Our Time by Jonathan Weiner (Alfred A. Knopf, 1994), ISBN 0-679-40003-6, which won the Pulitzer Prize for General Non-Fiction in 1995.[1]

In 2003 the Grants were joint recipients of the Loye and Alden Miller Research Award. They won the 2005 Balzan Prize for Population Biology [2]. The Balzan Prize citation states:

"Peter and Rosemary Grant are distinguished for their remarkable long-term studies demonstrating evolution in action in Galápagos finches. They have demonstrated how very rapid changes in body and beak size in response to changes in the food supply are driven by natural selection. They have also elucidated the mechanisms by which new species arise and how genetic diversity is maintained in natural populations. The work of the Grants has had a seminal influence in the fields of population biology, evolution and ecology."

Peter was made a Fellow of the Royal Society in 1987 and Rosemary in 2007. In 2008 both Peter and Rosemary Grant were among the thirteen recipients of the Darwin-Wallace Medal, which is bestowed every 50 years by the Linnean Society of London. In 2009 they were recipients of the annual Kyoto Prize in basic sciences, an international award honoring significant contributions to the scientific, cultural and spiritual betterment of mankind.


When I want to learn about theology, I read things by theologians.

When I want to learns about evolution, I read things written by people like Peter and Rosemary Grant.

When I want to learn nothing at all, I read Dan's posts.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2015, 03:36:14 am by Luis Gonzalez »
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Why do GOP candidates keep stumbling on evolution? By Byron York
« Reply #192 on: February 18, 2015, 03:33:31 am »
I recommend that anyone who wishes to do further reading on the subject of Biblical Creationism and evolution should spend some time reading the thoughts of St. Augustine of Hippo (354-430 AD) on the topic of Creationism and evolution.
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Re: Why do GOP candidates keep stumbling on evolution? By Byron York
« Reply #193 on: February 18, 2015, 03:34:21 am »
Here's an amusing thought experiment:

Assume for the sake of the hypothetical that evolution is dead wrong, that species do not develop from one another.

That necessarily requires that each species have been born as-is, with all the complexity that it has.

The fossil record, sparse as it is, clearly demonstrates that many species that are alive today - I will reserve comment on Homo Sapiens for obvious reasons - were not in existence from the very beginning.  There were no horses during the age of the trilobite.

That means that many of our current species - in fact, I would hazard to guess all current species - must have suddenly "shown up" on some particular day in some particular year.  And would have had to show up fully developed and, in order for the first members of this new species to breed, would have had to be fully grown.

In other words, about 5 million years ago, on some warm sunny day, there was a >POP<, a rush of air, and lo and behold, a breeding pair of horses, of the genus Equus, materialized out of thin air.

If species do not evolve one from the other, and if not all present-day species were present at the dawn of creation, then that is, more or less, about the only other way our current species got here.

In short:  if Species B was not born of Species A, and if Species B was not present at creation, then - since Species B is demonstrably present now - the only way for Species B to have arrived here would be for it to spring fully developed out of thin air.  There is no other alternative that bears any relationship to the natural world as we know it.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Why do GOP candidates keep stumbling on evolution? By Byron York
« Reply #194 on: February 18, 2015, 03:47:48 am »
Here's an amusing thought experiment:

Assume for the sake of the hypothetical that evolution is dead wrong, that species do not develop from one another.

That necessarily requires that each species have been born as-is, with all the complexity that it has.

The fossil record, sparse as it is, clearly demonstrates that many species that are alive today - I will reserve comment on Homo Sapiens for obvious reasons - were not in existence from the very beginning.  There were no horses during the age of the trilobite.

That means that many of our current species - in fact, I would hazard to guess all current species - must have suddenly "shown up" on some particular day in some particular year.  And would have had to show up fully developed and, in order for the first members of this new species to breed, would have had to be fully grown.

In other words, about 5 million years ago, on some warm sunny day, there was a >POP<, a rush of air, and lo and behold, a breeding pair of horses, of the genus Equus, materialized out of thin air.

If species do not evolve one from the other, and if not all present-day species were present at the dawn of creation, then that is, more or less, about the only other way our current species got here.

In short:  if Species B was not born of Species A, and if Species B was not present at creation, then - since Species B is demonstrably present now - the only way for Species B to have arrived here would be for it to spring fully developed out of thin air.  There is no other alternative that bears any relationship to the natural world as we know it.

Quit making sense or Dan will "school" you on the subject.
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Re: Why do GOP candidates keep stumbling on evolution? By Byron York
« Reply #195 on: February 18, 2015, 03:51:29 am »


The Maned Wolf - South America

Is that a photoshop or is it real?  If it's real, it's beautiful; if it's a photoshop, then it's a da&ned good one.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Why do GOP candidates keep stumbling on evolution? By Byron York
« Reply #196 on: February 18, 2015, 03:52:55 am »
Is that a photoshop or is it real?  If it's real, it's beautiful; if it's a photoshop, then it's a da&ned good one.

Real deal.
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Offline DCPatriot

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Re: Why do GOP candidates keep stumbling on evolution? By Byron York
« Reply #197 on: February 18, 2015, 04:05:26 am »
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

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Offline GourmetDan

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Re: Why do GOP candidates keep stumbling on evolution? By Byron York
« Reply #199 on: February 18, 2015, 02:49:14 pm »
When I want to learn nothing at all, I read Dan's posts.

You do realize that the article said that after studying finch 'evolution' for 30 years, it was "unpredictable", "unidirectional to oscillating, episodic to gradual".  In other words,  the finch populations fluctuated around certain parameters and went nowhere. 

The fact that life is adaptable does not mean that it 'evolves'.  This is just more of the usual logical fallacy of Affirming the Consequent.

If I want to learn something, I always go in the opposite direction of Luis' posts...

« Last Edit: February 18, 2015, 02:50:22 pm by GourmetDan »
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