Bush Says Some U.S. Forces Should Have Stayed in Iraq, Hasn't Heard From Obama

[Fishrrman]

EdinVa wrote above:
[[ I will always refer to my children as my kids (as well as anyone younger than me) and the fact that they volunteered to serve does not give us the right to throw their lives away for nothing.
Any illusion that Iraq and Afghanistan were stable was simply that. ]]

There are many folks in this forum who will disagree with what Ed wrote, but I don't.

He's dead-on absolutely right about Iraq and Afghanistan in stating that their "stability" was only a "product of our presence", and that it was destined to dissolve as soon as that presence was removed.

What could we have done differently? I have my ideas, but those same folks who disagree with Ed, would say I was crazy for even proposing them.

But ultimately, they are the things The West -must- do in the islamic world, if The West wishes to win this struggle and neutralize that part of the world.

[Fishrrman]

musiclady wrote above:
[[ You do realize, don't you, that you could apply the same principle to both Germany and Japan after WW II?
We're still in both countries.
And we're still in Korea, stabilizing that region as well. ]]

Musiclady, I'm goin' after ya on this one.

We did not -- let me shout that out for emphasis -- DID NOT -- do in Iraq and Afghanistan what we did in BOTH Germany AND Japan after World War II.

In Germany, we not only defeated the Nazis militarily, but we completely "de-Nazified" the country, all-but "bleach it out of" the Germans.

Same thing in Japan. If I recall my history correctly, we not only forced the emperor to publicly renounce his "divinity", we literally handed them the "pre-written" constitution that now governs that country.

We not only conquered both of those countries militarily (utterly defeating and destroying them both), we literally destroyed them culturally as well, even [in Japan's case] destroyed one of the religious factions that had been warlike and a driving force behind Japan's imperialism (again, hope I remember that correctly). In both countries, we dismantled the core ideologies that had made both nations such enemies of the civilized world.

We did NONE OF THAT in either Iraq or Afghanistan.

What was one of the first things the newly-created postwar Iraqi government did? In writing their new constitution, they specifically made islam the state religion.

That's the equivalent of the 1946 Reichstag assembly making Nazism the "official" party of postwar Germany!

If we were to attempt "the equivalent" in Iraq (as we did in Germany and Japan), we would have gone in, installed a militarily-supervised government, outlawed the practice of islam, torn down the mosques and madrassas, and converted the entire population to Christianity. And then we would remain for 80 years to make sure islam never gained a foothold in that place again.

But -- we didn't do that.
Of course, you'll say that such propositions are impossible, impractical, can't be done.
So be it.

But one cannot compare what we did post-1945 to transform Germany and Japan with what we did in Iraq and Afghanistan. No comparison, not even close, no way.

You can't defeat islam with today's politically-correct strategies.
Isn't going to happen.

[musiclady]

Just throwing this out there...Mike..my hubby...many years a 1sg always referred to his troopers as his *kids*....it was never said in an insulting manner more as someone who had to protect and watch over his kids...

A little different coming from Mike and talking about "his kids," than referring to all our troops as "kids."  They're not.

Even the young ones.

I'd also like to point out that, relative to all.....ALL other wars, very few of our troops died in Afghanistan and Iraq.

And, no matter who says what, they did not die 'for nothing.'

[musiclady]

musiclady wrote above:
[[ You do realize, don't you, that you could apply the same principle to both Germany and Japan after WW II?
We're still in both countries.
And we're still in Korea, stabilizing that region as well. ]]

Musiclady, I'm goin' after ya on this one.

We did not -- let me shout that out for emphasis -- DID NOT -- do in Iraq and Afghanistan what we did in BOTH Germany AND Japan after World War II.

In Germany, we not only defeated the Nazis militarily, but we completely "de-Nazified" the country, all-but "bleach it out of" the Germans.

Same thing in Japan. If I recall my history correctly, we not only forced the emperor to publicly renounce his "divinity", we literally handed them the "pre-written" constitution that now governs that country.

We not only conquered both of those countries militarily (utterly defeating and destroying them both), we literally destroyed them culturally as well, even [in Japan's case] destroyed one of the religious factions that had been warlike and a driving force behind Japan's imperialism (again, hope I remember that correctly). In both countries, we dismantled the core ideologies that had made both nations such enemies of the civilized world.

We did NONE OF THAT in either Iraq or Afghanistan.

What was one of the first things the newly-created postwar Iraqi government did? In writing their new constitution, they specifically made islam the state religion.

That's the equivalent of the 1946 Reichstag assembly making Nazism the "official" party of postwar Germany!

If we were to attempt "the equivalent" in Iraq (as we did in Germany and Japan), we would have gone in, installed a militarily-supervised government, outlawed the practice of islam, torn down the mosques and madrassas, and converted the entire population to Christianity. And then we would remain for 80 years to make sure islam never gained a foothold in that place again.

But -- we didn't do that.
Of course, you'll say that such propositions are impossible, impractical, can't be done.
So be it.

But one cannot compare what we did post-1945 to transform Germany and Japan with what we did in Iraq and Afghanistan. No comparison, not even close, no way.

You can't defeat islam with today's politically-correct strategies.
Isn't going to happen.

I know how you feel about the necessity of wiping out ALL of Islam, Fishrrman, and I respectfully disagree.

We could not kill all the Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan in order to achieve what you would consider complete victory.

In that sense, comparing the Nazis to all Muslims is comparing apples to oranges.

[Bigun]

I know how you feel about the necessity of wiping out ALL of Islam, Fishrrman, and I respectfully disagree.

We could not kill all the Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan in order to achieve what you would consider complete victory.

In that sense, comparing the Nazis to all Muslims is comparing apples to oranges.

We don't need to wipe out the Muslim religion but we do need to decisively deal with Iran before anything in that region will stabilize.

[DCPatriot]

I will always refer to my children as my kids (as well as anyone younger than me) and the fact that they volunteered to serve does not give us the right to throw their lives away for nothing.

Any illusion that Iraq and Afghanistan were stable was simply that.

With all due respect.....bullshit.

Whether it's fear of a tyrant like Saddam Hussein...or his sadist sons Cheech and Chong feeding you feet first into an industrial shredder....OR...an American soldier carrying hi-tech weaponry acting as a police force....it was indeed "stable".

But bragging you are planning on walking away by a specified date gave the Baathists, who licked their wounds since 2003 to regroup and the Shiites plenty of time to plot their revenge against the Sunnis. 

Those 4,000 Americans KIA hadn't died in vain until Barack Obama killed the SOFA negotiations.

Funny how Obama used the excuse that he didn't want to go against the Iraq Congress and not accept Maliki's personal guarantee that American soldiers would not be subject to Sharia Law....yet he'll piss on our Constitution and Congress on a daily basis.

[musiclady]

We don't need to wipe out the Muslim religion but we do need to decisively deal with Iran before anything in that region will stabilize.

Absolutely.

Iran is the rotten core that needs to be dealt with.

But Obama is planning on working together with them, is he not?  It's like an endless nightmare.... 

[musiclady]

With all due respect.....bullshit.

Whether it's fear of a tyrant like Saddam Hussein...or his sadist sons Cheech and Chong feeding you feet first into an industrial shredder....OR...an American soldier carrying hi-tech weaponry acting as a police force....it was indeed "stable".

But bragging you are planning on walking away by a specified date gave the Baathists, who licked their wounds since 2003 to regroup and the Shiites plenty of time to plot their revenge against the Sunnis. 

Those 4,000 Americans KIA hadn't died in vain until Barack Obama killed the SOFA negotiations.

Funny how Obama used the excuse that he didn't want to go against the Iraq Congress and not accept Maliki's personal guarantee that American soldiers would not be subject to Sharia Law....yet he'll piss on our Constitution and Congress on a daily basis.

Bravo!

And THANK you, DC!