Author Topic: John Locke warned us: corruption of power brings what we are now seeing  (Read 2616 times)

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Offline xfreeper

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Re: John Locke warned us: corruption of power brings what we are now seeing
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2013, 02:58:29 am »
Thanks I see. I posted my initial thought above while you were responding

Online Bigun

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Re: John Locke warned us: corruption of power brings what we are now seeing
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2013, 03:01:32 am »
OK please help me out a little on this one. I see it's a popular suggestion. I don't understand how it would be a big help. Not saying I disagree. Just saying I don't understand the approach. I'm sure there is a good explanation, I just haven't been informed yet.

The founders design for the legislative branch of our government allowed for a peoples house - the House of Representatives - with members directly elected by the people in their districts and a state's house - The Senate - with two members from each state appointed by the legislature of the individual states.  That design was turned on it head by adoption of the 17th amendment which allowed for the direct election of Senators by the people thus changing the original structure of government to one where the people have representation in both houses of the legislature and the states having no representation at all there.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Oceander

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Re: John Locke warned us: corruption of power brings what we are now seeing
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2013, 03:01:45 am »
OK please help me out a little on this one. I see it's a popular suggestion. I don't understand how it would be a big help. Not saying I disagree. Just saying I don't understand the approach. I'm sure there is a good explanation, I just haven't been informed yet.

OOOOK. Never mind. I get the concept.
Repeal of the 17th Amendment makes United States senators directly appointed by the state legislatures, as they were at our nation's founding, and representative of the will of each state and its citizens.  This action would check the federal government's proclivity to pass laws binding the states to unfunded mandates.  It would increase the sovereignty of the several states and restore true federalism back into our system of government.

Have to think about that a bit. My initial thought is it sounds good but I'm not sure the intended consequence would be the actual result. What's to prevent collusion between the state and federal legislatures and more corruption? One thing that occures to me is limiting the federal senate terms to less than 6 years. Too much time goes by in six years. A lot of damage can be done and forgotten in that period of time. It seems senators are less accountable as a result.

Getting rid of the 17th Amendment would give those states that want a greater say in federal legislation to do so; for example, the federal government's incursion on an area of traditional state control will generally get greater notice by the state legislature and executive than by the individual residents of that state, so the state, as such, would have a greater incentive to instruct its Senators to oppose the incursion whereas the individual residents of that state are very unlikely to demand such opposition from their Senators.  Right now, because Senators are popularly elected, they listen to the individual residents and give short(er) shrift to the state legislature as such because they know that its the individual voters, not the legislature, that butters their bread.

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: John Locke warned us: corruption of power brings what we are now seeing
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2013, 03:02:30 am »
Thanks I see. I posted my initial thought above while you were responding

Basically I think we never should have tinkered with the original document.  That said I see a few holes that need plugging. 

1) how to check if a president is actually eligible to run for office in the first place?

 and

 2) this business of standing with congress.  What good is giving congress certain responsibilities only to have a president usurp them (as Obama is doing) and not have any legal standing to stop him???  This is a real biggie with me.
�The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves.� G Washington July 2, 1776

Offline xfreeper

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Re: John Locke warned us: corruption of power brings what we are now seeing
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2013, 03:03:49 am »
congressmen - being closer to their electorate  - are more beholden to answering to their voters than senators. 
I wonder if that has more to do with the shorter term than anything else

And

Ask yourself how a professional representative of the people grew that wealthy on the salary we pay our senators and congressmen?

We should be asking that question of many of our representatives






Oceander

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Re: John Locke warned us: corruption of power brings what we are now seeing
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2013, 03:03:50 am »
The founders design for the legislative branch of our government allowed for a peoples house - the House of Representatives - with members directly elected by the people in their districts and a state's house - The Senate - with two members from each state appointed by the legislature of the individual states.  That design was turned on it head by adoption of the 17th amendment which allowed for the direct election of Senators by the people thus changing the original structure of government to one where the people have representation in both houses of the legislature and the states having no representation at all there.

Good, succinct summary!  :thumbsup:

Effectively, the 17th Amendment converted the Senators into pseudo super-Representatives, inasmuch as they are now popularly elected - like Representatives - but have votes with substantially more weight than each Representative has.  Essentially, the 17th Amendment turned the Congress from a bicameral legislature into a unicameral legislature with two gradations of member.

Offline sinkspur

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Re: John Locke warned us: corruption of power brings what we are now seeing
« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2013, 03:06:52 am »
Before the 17th was passed our local representatives went to the state capital and elected our senators to represent us in Washington.  Since they were dependent on the locals to elect them they actually had to pay attention to what was going on back home instead of what we have now - every six-years-lip service.  It also gave the rural counties a better say in their DC Senatorial representation. Today most senators receive the money to run for office from K-Street - not their constituents.  K-Street money - aka crony Capitalism - has pretty well destroyed the senate IMHO, while congressmen - being closer to their electorate  - are more beholden to answering to their voters than senators. 

A good example is Mitch McConnell. When he left college - not a wealthy man - he went to DC and has been there his entire life. Today he is worth 90 million dollars. Ask yourself how a professional representative of the people grew that wealthy on the salary we pay our senators and congressmen?

http://www.therichest.com/celebnetworth/politician/republican/mitch-mcconnell-net-worth/

Mitch McConnell's net worth is $9.8 million.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline xfreeper

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Re: John Locke warned us: corruption of power brings what we are now seeing
« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2013, 03:07:19 am »
LOL  All you guys type too fast for me

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: John Locke warned us: corruption of power brings what we are now seeing
« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2013, 03:08:28 am »
congressmen - being closer to their electorate  - are more beholden to answering to their voters than senators. 
I wonder if that has more to do with the shorter term than anything else

The shorter term is a blessing and a curse - we can get rid of a bad congressman easier when they are not so entrenched in DC (six years is a long time), but the curse is they spend one of the two years in fund-raising and campaign mode...

And

Quote
Ask yourself how a professional representative of the people grew that wealthy on the salary we pay our senators and congressmen?

We should be asking that question of many of our representatives

Exactly. 
�The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves.� G Washington July 2, 1776

Offline xfreeper

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Re: John Locke warned us: corruption of power brings what we are now seeing
« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2013, 03:10:52 am »
but the curse is they spend one of the two years in fund-raising and campaign mode...

Then there wouldn't be much reason to re elect them

Offline Rapunzel

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Re: John Locke warned us: corruption of power brings what we are now seeing
« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2013, 03:13:15 am »
but the curse is they spend one of the two years in fund-raising and campaign mode...

Then there wouldn't be much reason to re elect them

I pay pretty close attention to how my congressman votes. Luckily he is very much in tune with this district.   
�The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves.� G Washington July 2, 1776