Is it Immoral to Collect Social Security?

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Another person defaming folks collecting Social Security.  You brainwashed people amaze me.  Taxpayers funded Social Security.  Folks on welfare and Medicaid did not fund a damn thing.  So please, stop lumping people that contribute nothing to those of us that were forced to pay taxes into Social Security.  Not one person I know was given a choice in paying Social Security Taxes.  I worked f***ing hard all my life, and I resent people like you referring to recipients of SSI as loafers.

There is such a disdain for the working people in the USA.  It amazes me.  And to lump them in with people that never worked an honest day, that astounds me.

We have stinking politicians displacing white collar US citizens from high paid positions to provide jobs to folks for half or less the salary and no benefits, almost exclusively from India.  I have worked with hundreds of them, where US citizens are 10% on a project, folks from India are 90%.  We have other politicians that allow millions to pour into our country that end up taking mostly the blue collar jobs from US citizens, and again, no one cares.  Perfectly fine to destroy the lives of US citizens.

And then there are federal funds for federal programs being paid to system people in China, India, and Ukraine at even lower salaries than the ones brought to the USA, and I have been on projects with folks from all three countries, where typically 35 -100 of the folks on projects funded by the federal government are in those countries.

Anything is legal in the USA when it comes to destroying our workforce for the benefit of foreigners.  And Trump's dishonest rhetoric of promises made, promises kept, it is all a lie.  He ran in 2016 promising to end the H1-b Visa Program.  He ended up increasing numbers 1st term, and is promising to do so again this term.  The fools that keep voting these people into office who destroy US citizens lives, and no one cares.  Certainly no one cares on these boards.  I have not seen one person here on these boards voice the same complaint. 

When as a society we no longer care about our fellow citizens, guess what, we become more like Russia, where they do not care about their fellow man.  At least they have a reason, they are living a life of fear in a totalitarian system that gets you killed if you speak up against the leaders of government.  Here, we just follow like sheep, meek with every step, and fully tolerant of folks that no longer represent us in Congress.

Not defaming anyone, I will no doubt collect SS at one point, in whatever form it still exists at that point. If you think I'm defaming people, then in reality I'm defaming myself.

Incidentally, I agree with you on H1b's too. It's disgusting.

[roamer_1]

I learned something today.  I thought SSI and SS were the same thing.  After your comment I searched the two and found out otherwise.

So, Social Security payments are paid to folks that paid taxes into the system.  SSI I suppose is a form of welfare, which  I did not realize.  For those folks collecting SSI, they are in need of a helping hand.  I understand that.

Sort of. I paid in. For decades, for all the good it did me. When I tipped over and couldn't work anymore, I went broke (of course). So without means, my retirement didn't just kick in. I burned off my insurance. I burned off my 401. I burned off my silver buried in the back yard. THEN I was deemed disabled and SSI kicked in.

So it doesn't matter all I paid in. all  that matters is the last five years before I was declared disabled.  And since I wasn't working for four of those years (the years I was eating up my savings) that number was exceedingly low. And that number is what determines the level of 'pension' to which I am entitled... Which is a pauper's lot.

I still have a shot - When my ex retires I can draw a claim against her SS in a spousal benefit,  the same way a widow can claim against her husband (since we were married for more than 20 years)... When that happens, my 'pension' will damn near double, and under the spousal benefit I will be able to work to provide way more ancillary income than I am allowed now.

For now I get 600/mo and under 300 in snap (food stamps) and unlimited health care. I cannot make anything much or I lose the benefit altogether for any given month. So there I sit. And with my disability, subsistence living is pretty much gone. So I went from 2 full freezers, and raising my own beef and chickens and hunting and fishing every year - PLENTY and self sufficient, to a ward of the state. Just like that.

There are young people collecting welfare and consider it their income.  I read a story of a young woman that had a baby every year, and at the age of 26 had 10 kids.  Each month, she was collecting $1,500 per child making a nice six figure income.  No fathers involved, for she probably did not know who the  fathers were for her children.  Didn't care either I suspect.  She just wanted the income that came with having those children.  I have a problem with all of that.  We should not pay unlimited sums of money to folks on welfare.  There should be a limit, one such that people are encouraged to work for a living.

I know a whole lot of welfare queens, and I don't think that's true. Inevitably they live in a trailer or in government housing, driving a shitbox car (with no man to fix it) and ten year old technology (with no man to fix it), except their phone, which is always top-of-the-line. It's a damnable existence... The illusion that Uncle Nanny could take care of them better than any man leaves them in a terrible trap.

But by then they are over 30 and their beauty is fading... And have a house full of other men's kids - often multiple fathers - And what man is gonna love her now, and take on all that? It's a damn, crying shame, it is.

Yeah, dumb as a box of hammers to get caught in that trick bag, but there they are... in their hundreds of thousands.

The ones that have it good are the trad wives. Sure and it's a struggle... Sure and they have to put up with the old man... All that looks so damn hard till the years roll by and they have their grandchildren and that someone in a rockin chair right beside em.

All that is hard to see from the point of youth. Father, please forgive them.

[Hoodat]

That is a joke right?  I haven't obsessed with austerity and wealth generation for 45 years for nothing.

The point here is that when a person dies, all Social Security payments end.  So if a person works his entire life paying Social Security taxes, then croaks the day after retirement, that person receives a check for a grand total of $255.

Consider someone working for minimum wage ($290/wk) from the age of 18 through 65.  Instead of the government confiscating social security taxes from his paycheck each week (at the point of a gun) to pay for general government expenses, let's say that worker was instead allowed to put that money in an individual retirement fund earning 5.5%.  By the time that worker turned 65, that fund would contain close to $420k.  The interest from that fund would be paying out 53% higher than their lifetime salary.  And if they died, that person's children would inherit that $420k, possibly breaking them of the cycle of poverty inherited from the parent.  Contrast that with Social Security where the government keeps everything, and the worker's kids get nothing.

But your overall premise is dumb.  What about the same concept with life insurance or an annuity?

I know of no annuity where payments must be made for over 40 years before the person qualifies and where the person gets nothing if they die before then.  Same with life insurance.

SS is fun money for me

Others are not as blessed.   For the minimum wage worker above, it ensures he/she retires in poverty and that there is no inheritance for family members.  If that person were given an option to have that money placed in an actual (government approved) retirement account instead of handing it over to the US Treasury to be immediately spent, then the cycle of poverty could be broken.

BUT....  our SS is citizenry tenant that comes with gain along with the risk.  When I first paid my first  dollar in it in 1973,  there was no check yes or no box option of my sign up.

I made that very same point at the beginning of the thread.

But if and when it goes belly up?

It already has.  The Fed is now issuing newly printed money to cover the payments of those currently collecting it.  Social Security tax receipts do not cover the money being paid out.

Is just reason number 387 of why a Bastille Day in this country is long overdue.

I'm with you there, bruh.

And the point you are bitching more about this than the $38T debt this country shows you are off target.

This right here is part of that $38T in debt.  In fact this part goes way further.  Not only is part of this year's debt caused by social security, but there is now an unfunded obligation that stretches way into the future.  The Ponzi scheme needs to end now.  And with 12% of every dollar earned in this country going into real investment funds instead of being squandered by government, our GDP will rise substantially.

[Hoodat]

Sort of. I paid in. For decades, for all the good it did me. When I tipped over and couldn't work anymore, I went broke (of course). So without means, my retirement didn't just kick in. I burned off my insurance. I burned off my 401. I burned off my silver buried in the back yard. THEN I was deemed disabled and SSI kicked in.

Amazing how the government wants you dead-ass broke before they lift a finger to help.  Pure evil.  There was a time back in the early 90s where my wife ended up in the hospital due to a traffic accident and things got real tight.  I had two kids to feed and figure out a way to get them to and from school.  I lost out on income because of it.  Like I said, things were tight, so I decided to apply for some emergency food stamps.  What a dead end that was.  Basically, I would have had to sell off everything I had, and empty my bank accounts before they would give me anything.  I only needed about two week's relief, but those were their conditions.

I feel ya, @roamer_1 .  Any comments I've made on this subject are predicated on not touching a retirement fund.  Having to cash out your 401(k) is mind-wrecking.

[roamer_1]

Amazing how the government wants you dead-ass broke before they lift a finger to help.  Pure evil.  There was a time back in the early 90s where my wife ended up in the hospital due to a traffic accident and things got real tight.  I had two kids to feed and figure out a way to get them to and from school.  I lost out on income because of it.  Like I said, things were tight, so I decided to apply for some emergency food stamps.  What a dead end that was.  Basically, I would have had to sell off everything I had, and empty my bank accounts before they would give me anything.  I only needed about two week's relief, but those were their conditions.

I went through a similar thing... one of my kids was a heart baby. Infant... life flight to Great falls... Then life flight to SLC... Primary Children's Care... The whole 9 yards. It's a remarkable story, full of Yah and his healing power. What a miracle.

BUT (and it's a big, hairy but), my insurance at the time dropped me like a hot rock, and the bill was so stupid big that I went broke, so I couldn't take em to court for it. Primary and the Mormons took it on the chin and took the write off, Yah bless em... McDonald's House paid for our long term housing in SLC... And Benefis in Great falls treated me right... So I really only got hung with ancillary costs, the two life flights, and the originating emergency services here.

But even that was way too much... I crapped out HARD and it took me near a decade to recover.

I feel ya, @roamer_1 .  Any comments I've made on this subject are predicated on not touching a retirement fund.  Having to cash out your 401(k) is mind-wrecking.

Nah... I'm a cowboy... when I can't eat steak, I go back to beans. It's alright.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-hqR1_V44s

My point in all this is folks DO get caught out. The principle thing here is that it is impossible to account for risk. Shit happens.

But the current state of things tries to take that risk away which also necessarily removes profit (prosperity). That is inevitably true. Risk is inversely tied to profit.

It's the hard thing.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

I learned something today.  I thought SSI and SS were the same thing.  After your comment I searched the two and found out otherwise.

So, Social Security payments are paid to folks that paid taxes into the system.  SSI I suppose is a form of welfare, which  I did not realize.  For those folks collecting SSI, they are in need of a helping hand.  I understand that.

There are young people collecting welfare and consider it their income.  I read a story of a young woman that had a baby every year, and at the age of 26 had 10 kids.  Each month, she was collecting $1,500 per child making a nice six figure income.  No fathers involved, for she probably did not know who the  fathers were for her children.  Didn't care either I suspect.  She just wanted the income that came with having those children.  I have a problem with all of that.  We should not pay unlimited sums of money to folks on welfare.  There should be a limit, one such that people are encouraged to work for a living.

AFAIK, SS SSI and SSDI are all different things.

[Hoodat]

I went through a similar thing... one of my kids was a heart baby. Infant... life flight to Great falls... Then life flight to SLC... Primary Children's Care... The whole 9 yards. It's a remarkable story, full of Yah and his healing power. What a miracle.

Y-HW-H is AWESOME!  Always patient, always kind. He never envies, and is never boastful, never proud.  He does not dishonor others and is not self-seeking.  He is not easily angered.  He keeps no record of wrongs.  He does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.  He always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.  Yah never fails.

[roamer_1]

Y-HW-H is AWESOME!  Always patient, always kind. He never envies, and is never boastful, never proud.  He does not dishonor others and is not self-seeking.  He is not easily angered.  He keeps no record of wrongs.  He does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.  He always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.  Yah never fails.

Oh man! Some time when we're sittin on the porch, remind me to tell you that story. It bears a powerful witness. It makes me weep, to this day.

We have seen his protection. We have seen the Spirit move in our family - and that was one of the big ones. It was so grand that it turned my father back to his Savior. Oh, how marvelous! 

[Bigun]

Oh man! Some time when we're sittin on the porch, remind me to tell you that story. It bears a powerful witness. It makes me weep, to this day.

We have seen his protection. We have seen the Spirit move in our family - and that was one of the big ones. It was so grand that it turned my father back to his Savior. Oh, how marvelous! 

 

[cato potatoe]

Why do people keep anticipating something this ridiculous? The market will not do a permanent collapse, because as long as there are people, they will want to buy shit.

Yeah, if you think it's immoral, fine. Personally I don't have a problem with my tax portion going to the *truly needy*. The loafers can KMA. Whether it's SS or food stamps etc. As a society we can collectively decide where our tax dollars go to, but not individually. Death and taxes basically.

I can't imagine any collapse would last for more than a couple of years unless the government destroyed the recovery as it did in the 1930s.  People point to the Nikkei Index, which took 30 years to recover its high.  What they neglect to mention is the Nikkei tripled its value in the five years prior to its collapse, and doubled in the five years before that.  Someone who bought a stock in 1980 was still at 3X the value in 2000. 

The collection part is not immoral.  If I were able to opt out of the next 22 years, I would expect to be paid a reduced amount in keeping with the formula.  What is immoral is depriving the middle class of a secure retirement by forcing them into a system of low returns.  There should have been an opt-out or partial benefit program from the very beginning. 

[Hoodat]

@Bigun

Do you ever notice how Jesus always looks Italian in all the paintings?  I try to picture him as a young Billy Crystal.

[Hoodat]

There should have been an opt-out or partial benefit program from the very beginning.

Damn straight.  Everyone should have been given the same option that teachers, Congress, and the City of Galveston got.

[Smokin Joe]

Eh, the effect is the same. Fact is you can withdraw far more out of SS then you ever put in, making it basically equivalent to a means-tested benefit like medicaid, etc. It's a tax we all pay for, and some will take out far more than they ever put in.

Sure you can draw more out, numerically. The first dollars I paid into Social Security were redeemable in silver coin. All that has happened, while the numbers might seem impressive, is that inflation has eaten the difference.

A $1 federal reserve note when I started paying in would be equivalent of $8.24 today in buying power, nonwithstanding the current melt value of 90% silver coins, which would be three times that.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

At least with SS we have a rebuttal to the media sob stories of people who did not save for retirement.

[roamer_1]

At least with SS we have a rebuttal to the media sob stories of people who did not save for retirement.

It is still a broken, inadequate, and improper system that is financially driving us into the ground - Even if it is the devil we know.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

It already has.  The Fed is now issuing newly printed money to cover the payments of those currently collecting it.  Social Security tax receipts do not cover the money being paid out.

The leftists will tell you the system is sound and this is not newly printed money but the trust funds transferred to the Treasury simply being cashed in.

To those interested, I attach the SS Trust fund data which shows there is a whopping $2.7 trillion in Trust Funds which SS is in the process of cashing in.

Note a few things:

1. The Trust Funds are misleading as they are spoken so as to get one to believe this is something like cash reserves sitting in Treasury for SS to draw on when needed.  That is a baldfaced lie.

2. How do you know this is a lie?  Because the cumulative income from SS has always exceeded the cumulative cost, in fact greatly exceeded.  That and the cumulative 'interest' on the trust funds has been always positive.  So why was more income demanded to 'keep it from being insolvent'?

Other than a few years from 1975 to 1981, only the past 4 years (coincidentally when Covid began) that the yearly net costs have been getting out of hand, and that during a time when income greatly increased.

3. Note the gigantic transfers to the general fund which occurred during Obama years.  This is outright theft and it crippled the fund greatly.
https://www.ssa.gov/OACT/STATS/table4a3.html

I will also point out that the SS tax on individuals is only half of what the revenues were.  Companies paid the other half, which means every single American, not just those working, had to cough up money to pay into the scheme as these companies had to charge more for their products to cover that tax, so everyone had to pay.

Finally, I wonder why SS is transferring a lot of money to Railroad pensions.

[Fishrrman]

Isailed wrote:
"Finally, I wonder why SS is transferring a lot of money to Railroad pensions."

I stopped paying into Social Security "directly" when I hired out on the railroad at the end of August, 1979. I still get a printout from SS to this day showing my "contributions", but every number after 1979 is "0".

However, at some point there was legislation passed (may have been in effect before I hired) that divides the Railroad Retirement employee payroll tax (which is actually considerably higher than that non-railroad employees pay into SS), into a "Social Security Equivalent Benefit" portion and a "non-Social Security Equivalent Benefit" portion (the latter is more like a company pension, and is treated as such by the IRS).

At the end of the year I get a form 1099 which has both the SS equivalent amount and the non-SS equivalent amount. The SS equivalent goes on line 6b of the 1040 return (reserved for SS benefits), the non-SS amount goes on line 5b (for "pensions and annuities").

So I'm thinking that AFTER the government receives the tax payment from the RR employee, some of it gets sent to Social Security, and the remainder is handled by RR retirement and the railroads.

That's the way I think it works.
I could be wrong.

[berdie]

Is it immoral? No. As mentioned, there is no "opt out" option. I feel no guilt at all.

Of course, ideally, the money could stay with the individual to be in a self-directed investment. But unless it were a forced investment, let's face it, most young people would not save that money for retirement. #1 it's taking every dime to get by. #2 They really don't worry about being old and broke.

When the company I worked for started a 401K with and unbelievable match our HR director was just astounded that people weren't all participating. She never understood that not everybody could afford to. When faced with feeding their kids today or eating cat food when they are old...they just roll the dice.

[DCPatriot]

You should take it no matter what.  You can share it with handicapped traffic island panhandlers.

Get more out of it than giving the same amount to the Red Cross or Salvation Army.

[Hoodat]

When the company I worked for started a 401K with and unbelievable match our HR director was just astounded that people weren't all participating. She never understood that not everybody could afford to.

They can't afford to because government is confiscating 12.5% of their income at the point of a gun in the name of 'social security'.

[berdie]

They can't afford to because government is confiscating 12.5% of their income at the point of a gun in the name of 'social security'.

That's true to an extent, especially for mid to upper level earners as the amount can be substantial. I'm talking about the lower level workers that $20 might make a difference. Those folks most likely would  not  invest that $20 forced deduction.

[Hoodat]

That's true to an extent, especially for mid to upper level earners as the amount can be substantial. I'm talking about the lower level workers that $20 might make a difference. Those folks most likely would  not  invest that $20 forced deduction.

Keep the 12.5% mandatory deduction.  But allow the worker the option of investing that money in a government-approved IRA that cannot be tapped until retirement age instead of handing it over to Social Security as part of the largest annuity ripoff in the history of man.

[DB]

The leftists will tell you the system is sound and this is not newly printed money but the trust funds transferred to the Treasury simply being cashed in.

To those interested, I attach the SS Trust fund data which shows there is a whopping $2.7 trillion in Trust Funds which SS is in the process of cashing in.

Note a few things:

1. The Trust Funds are misleading as they are spoken so as to get one to believe this is something like cash reserves sitting in Treasury for SS to draw on when needed.  That is a baldfaced lie.

2. How do you know this is a lie?  Because the cumulative income from SS has always exceeded the cumulative cost, in fact greatly exceeded.  That and the cumulative 'interest' on the trust funds has been always positive.  So why was more income demanded to 'keep it from being insolvent'?

Other than a few years from 1975 to 1981, only the past 4 years (coincidentally when Covid began) that the yearly net costs have been getting out of hand, and that during a time when income greatly increased.

3. Note the gigantic transfers to the general fund which occurred during Obama years.  This is outright theft and it crippled the fund greatly.
https://www.ssa.gov/OACT/STATS/table4a3.html

I will also point out that the SS tax on individuals is only half of what the revenues were.  Companies paid the other half, which means every single American, not just those working, had to cough up money to pay into the scheme as these companies had to charge more for their products to cover that tax, so everyone had to pay.

Finally, I wonder why SS is transferring a lot of money to Railroad pensions.

People who are self-employed or own their businesses pay both halves. They get an extra screwing by the government.

[Bigun]

People who are self-employed or own their businesses pay both halves. They get an extra screwing by the government.

Everybody pays both halves. It's baked in the salary cake.

[Smokin Joe]

You should take it no matter what.  You can share it with handicapped traffic island panhandlers.

Get more out of it than giving the same amount to the Red Cross or Salvation Army.

Look at the expenses of the Red Cross vs the Salvation Army. Look at executive compensation.

Yeah, a lot of what I have donated has not been documented, official, or deducted from taxes.
I consider that real charity, undocumented. Sometimes a little means a lot, especially when you are down.

After a Red Cross disaster relief vehicle driver totaled out my '70 Dodge Coronet, (failed to yield, 55 in a 25, bent the car so badly that the very new tires wore to the cords in 400 miles driven to a new town and job, and a concussion) and didn't even want to pay for the car, the Red Cross has not and will not get another dime from me. For 46 years, that remains the case.

"Sally's" has received numerous donations of cash and literally pickup loads of stuff for their thrift store from our family, though, and I never asked for a receipt.

[Smokin Joe]

People who are self-employed or own their businesses pay both halves. They get an extra screwing by the government.

Yep. When I had my own business, I was writing quarterly checks to the Treasury for 2/3 the purchase price of my house.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

Is it immoral? No. As mentioned, there is no "opt out" option. I feel no guilt at all.

Of course, ideally, the money could stay with the individual to be in a self-directed investment. But unless it were a forced investment, let's face it, most young people would not save that money for retirement. #1 it's taking every dime to get by. #2 They really don't worry about being old and broke.

When the company I worked for started a 401K with and unbelievable match our HR director was just astounded that people weren't all participating. She never understood that not everybody could afford to. When faced with feeding their kids today or eating cat food when they are old...they just roll the dice.

I don't buy that anyone "cannot afford" to save 4-5% of their paycheck every month... money they will not only get back but also extra they'll get from their companies. Anyway, for now I've "paused" my 401K, we have a 401k loan that we pay into every month and will until 2028, all the interest goes to grow the 401 account, not pretax but whatever, not a bad deal at all IMO.

[MeganC]

I don't buy that anyone "cannot afford" to save 4-5% of their paycheck every month... money they will not only get back but also extra they'll get from their companies. Anyway, for now I've "paused" my 401K, we have a 401k loan that we pay into every month and will until 2028, all the interest goes to grow the 401 account, not pretax but whatever, not a bad deal at all IMO.

If you're paying student loans, paying car loans, paying rent, paying for credit cards, paying for fancy nights out, paying for Starbuck's in the morning, a fancy lunch at noon, and Door Dash at night then yeah, you might not be able to afford to save money.

These are the consequences of the lifestyle that so many people have freely adopted.

They are wage slaves.

[roamer_1]

If you're paying student loans, paying car loans, paying rent, paying for credit cards, paying for fancy nights out, paying for Starbuck's in the morning, a fancy lunch at noon, and Door Dash at night then yeah, you might not be able to afford to save money.

These are the consequences of the lifestyle that so many people have freely adopted.

They are wage slaves.

That ain't wrong... Borrowed to the nuts, four or five points might be the difference between making the car payment or the mortgage, or being able to pay for child care... Debt is such a cruel, cruel thing. And so very many people are suckered.

[berdie]

Keep the 12.5% mandatory deduction.  But allow the worker the option of investing that money in a government-approved IRA that cannot be tapped until retirement age instead of handing it over to Social Security as part of the largest annuity ripoff in the history of man.

That's a good plan.

[DefiantMassRINO]

Wage Income, when you include Social Security and Medicare, is taxed at a higher rate than long-term capital gains.

Is it immoral to tax wage earners at a net higher % of total income than Wall Street Banksters and Silicon Valley Kleptocratic Oligarchs?

Is it immoral for the Pentagon to p!$$ away billions of dollars on failed programs (Littoral Combat Ships (aka Little Crappy Ships)), and single-sourced procurement programs like the F-35?  Is it immoral for those incomptent (and possibly corrupt) Pentagon f*cks to still be employed by the Government, employed by Defense Contractors, or still receiving Government pensions?

Incompetence and cronyism are not crimes.  Maybe they need to be.

Go after those on top of the Swamp corruption pyramid first, not those on fixed, limited incomes - like disabled veterans and working-class retired persons.

[Smokin Joe]

I don't buy that anyone "cannot afford" to save 4-5% of their paycheck every month... money they will not only get back but also extra they'll get from their companies. Anyway, for now I've "paused" my 401K, we have a 401k loan that we pay into every month and will until 2028, all the interest goes to grow the 401 account, not pretax but whatever, not a bad deal at all IMO.

Ever work a job where there were no sick days, personal time, 401K, or even insurance?

There a lot of people working those. 4-5% can be a lot when you are in that situation. Every dollar counts.

[DefiantMassRINO]

A nickel is a forutune when you don't have a penny to your name.

[Smokin Joe]

If you're paying student loans, paying car loans, paying rent, paying for credit cards, paying for fancy nights out, paying for Starbuck's in the morning, a fancy lunch at noon, and Door Dash at night then yeah, you might not be able to afford to save money.

These are the consequences of the lifestyle that so many people have freely adopted.

They are wage slaves.

True enough, many have freely adopted that. They have bought into the whole FOMO bit of having the latest, newest, whatever, 'keeping up with the (TV) Jones' shtick coming straight from Madison Avenue.

Some even resent people who drive older cars that are paid for.
But between not having to make car payments and carry full coverage insurance (lending institutions demand that), you can save a grand a month per vehicle.

[Hoodat]

Everybody pays both halves. It's baked in the salary cake.

Correctamundo.

[berdie]

Ever work a job where there were no sick days, personal time, 401K, or even insurance?

There a lot of people working those. 4-5% can be a lot when you are in that situation. Every dollar counts.

Thank you for your post. These are my thoughts exactly...but you said it better than I could have.