Author Topic: Insurers Oppose Cruz Amendment to Republican Health-Care Bill  (Read 3382 times)

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Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: Insurers Oppose Cruz Amendment to Republican Health-Care Bill
« Reply #50 on: July 16, 2017, 12:30:24 pm »
The point was that advances in health care and the availability of those advances make people less responsible when it comes to taking care of themselves.  Socialized medicine discourages that.  The single payer gets to decide what treatment is covered and what treatment is not.  Which is why the quality of care available under socialized medicine is inferior to a free open market.

To further illustrate the point being made on human nature, take a look at HIV.  Here is a disease that is nearly 100% preventable.  Yet for a while, there was a political movement led by homosexuals that were pushing for a cure for HIV.  This same political movement opposed preventive proposals such as closing down gay bath houses in San Francisco.  Yet they wanted their cure.  Why?  So that they could go back to the same promiscuous lifestyle that made HIV an epidemic to begin with.

Or how about bypass surgery?  Look at how much fatter America has gotten now that doctors use bypass surgery to prolong the lives of people who eat high fat diets?

It is all about the sin nature.  And when sin gets covered by insurance, you get more of it.
I do not doubt anything you are saying, just believing that an individualistic rationale regarding healthy lifestyles means more than the avoidance of a dependency of a social healthcare system.
No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Insurers Oppose Cruz Amendment to Republican Health-Care Bill
« Reply #51 on: July 16, 2017, 02:09:29 pm »
I think the big difference between covering conditions that result from overeating, or eating "bad stuff" vs. addiction is that one is not a clear cause and effect situation whereas the other one is.

One's eating habits may or may not shorten one's life.  There are too many factors involved for there to be a clear "if you eat this, you will die early".  Genetics, activity level, GMO vs. non-GMO, luck...whatever.  Additionally, food is an integral part off keeping us alive.

Now, heroin, crack, meth, whatever - that's a different story, and there is a very clear and stark causation there.  One that you really can't escape.  If you do drugs, you die.

Why and how do we insure against activities that we know will kill you?
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 02:10:06 pm by Sanguine »

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Insurers Oppose Cruz Amendment to Republican Health-Care Bill
« Reply #52 on: July 16, 2017, 04:58:45 pm »
Yes, that is easy to see; however, that is not health treatment like we were describing, that is the pure evil of socialism which, if you are forced to live under, is almost impossible to avoid and stay healthy.
Well, aside from mischaracterizing what I said earlier about how socialized medicine is an incentive to be healthy (cause you know it won't likely make you well), and inverting that to something I didn't say, the classical strawman argument, let me explain why I think socialized medicine is a bad idea.

As for pure evil, when is the 'pure evil' pure enough? How much poop is permissible in the punchbowl?

A number of socialism's victims were carted off under the guise of receiving specialized medical care, or a 'better' education where specialists could help.   
The National Socialist's eugenics programs started that way. "Camps" for the disabled or folks with special needs.
 
You see, "improving public health" could always be characterized as a statistical thing, and one way to make a population look better, statistically, is to eliminate any subsets which do not meet whatever standard is imposed.
One way to make a bureaucrat look better is better statistics.

For instance, shoot one in ten tobacco smokers, and smoking is down 10% (maybe more when the word gets out). The Ministry of Health can report that the anti-smoking campaign is wildly successful...If everyone who has a myocardial infarction is left to their own devices, the fraction of the population with heart disease drops, literally. Stop or limit the production of Insulin, and diabetes fades away.

Once any government controls who gets health care, it is only a matter of time before some one uses it to control people, to build their own version of what is acceptable as their 'superior humanity', 'Master Race', "healthy population', 'compliant populace'--whatever you want to call it, or to use as a lever to force obedience, by allowing or denying care.

The next best thing for a totalitarian in a 'free' population is to control who has access to that care, by controlling the finances involved. A few will slip through the cracks (they always do), and find a way to get health care, either through their own funds, barter of skills, or other devices, but most will be forced to march in lockstep or do without. Impoverish those who could, perhaps, afford their own by burdening them with mandatory expenses, not for care, but merely the 'promise' of care, enforced by penalties, and few will be in a position, economically, to resist.
Merely cutting off food, or water, shooting them or gassing them wholesale isn't acceptable among free people.

Feed them crap and control what's in their water, food, and medicine, and then force them to pay exorbitant fees to be made well...now, that's a totalitarian's wet dream. Control!, even without death camps and pockmarked walls, and it finances the 50+ room summer 'cottages' scattered in lovely exclusive places where other elites gather. 

The relationship between a person and their doctor is a highly personal one, one which does not require the government bureaucracy as a middle man. There is no Constitutional Authority for the Federal Government to be involved in that relationship, except to provide for standardized measures (weight, volume, etc.) for the purpose of trade, and to coin the money used therein.

Then, there is the question of who decides: "What is healthy?"
Already we have seen "public cost" arguments against everything from riding a motorcycle without a helmet to smoking to firearm ownership. We've seen social acceptance go from Reefer Madness to, well, reefer madness, as drugs once worth a felony for possession of a couple of grams are being legalized and now tobacco is the "evil weed'. (Or apples, or eggs, or butter, or salt, or....)
For some a low sodium diet is a good thing. For others it produces fatigue and ill effects. Some can have high cholesterol with no apparent ill effects, others have serious problems. Why? Because we aren't all cookie-cutter critters, we have different traits. On the same diet, some will live to 100 and others will drop dead by 50. I think a lot depends on what your ancestors ate.
But where will that bandwagon stop? Government control is control. Control vital services, control those who need them.
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Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

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Offline goodwithagun

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Re: Insurers Oppose Cruz Amendment to Republican Health-Care Bill
« Reply #53 on: July 16, 2017, 06:48:58 pm »
Would you rather they stay addicted?  The side effects are far more expensive to the insurance companies, and society in general, than the treatment for the addiction.

Of course, you could say that they insurance companies shouldn't have to pay for those side effects, either.  But that opens up a can of worms.  For you'd be allowing insurance companies to dictate just what treatments they will pay for based on customer behavior.  (ie: You had a heart attack?  Our records show you had high cholesterol because you eat tons of greasy pizzas.  We aren't paying for that.)

We've had DARE and other drug programs since the 80s. If you still want to do drugs, knowing the risks, then your family or a private org can pay for your rehab. Personal responsibility used to work. I bet it still can.
I stand with Roosgirl.