GLOCK VICE PRESIDENT: “Continue MHS, Don’t Settle for SIG” – Glock Asks Army to Keep Testing Pistols

[Bigun]

I have never served.  But I just wanted to add my little 2 cents to this statement.  I feel like this is the same thing as my saying  you've never been an engineer so I'm not going to bother talking to you about that time of my life because you wouldn't understand it.  Or, you've never been a stay at home mom so I'm not goinv to talk to you about it.  It separates us.  And I think it denies comraderie to people who are genuinely interested in your experience and learning from it and in awe of the sacrifices y'all made.  I am really hoping I am explaining this in a way that does not seem confrontational.  My grandpa was in the Ardennes.  He never talked about it with us other than in huge sweeping generalities; it was cold, etc.And I feel like we missed out because I can tell my child that his great grandpa fought at the Bulge, but I have hardly anything that puts a specific human experience with the man.

@RoosGirl

You express yourself very well and make some telling points.  Don't know that it will make any difference but you did. I will try is all I can promise you.

[edpc]

Who wouldn't want a plastic gun in combat?

Every time you read a story about a sniper making a ridiculously long shot these days, they're not fired from your grandad's walnut stocked hunting rifle.

[RoosGirl]

@RoosGirl

You express yourself very well and make some telling points.  Don't know that it will make any difference but you did. I will try is all I can promise you.

@Bigun I appreciate you think it is at least worthy of consideration.

[sneakypete]

If it's so boring, why do they make movies about it?

@unite for individuality

It's not boring so much as it is horrifying or shocking,and a lot of times it can cause people to look at you different because "you killed someone". Not only did YOU personally kill someone,but YOU are someone they know who they would have trusted around their families!

This is especially true for VN vets,who the media identified in the minds of the public as "psychotic,drug-addicted,baby killers!" If you were a VN vet and wanted to get a job after taking off your uniform,you never mentioned being a veteran,never mind a combat veteran. I actually had people refuse to hire me and tell me it was because of all the stories they had heard about whacked out VN vets going nuts and killing people.

There was also the "junkie" thing. All the media stories of cheap heroin and GI Junkies. What none of those stories admitted to anyone was they were written by reporters that never went into combat with combat units. They were either written by leftists reporters with an agenda,or the "headquarters reporters" that never left the big cities or big firebases. Pretty hard to score heroin in the jungle while on combat ops,and a junkie in the bush is such a danger to his fellow soldiers or Marines that he would be lucky to make it back to the firebase. When you are on a combat operation,you need EVERYONE around you to be alert and at the top of his game,or you could all end up dead before the day is done. This is as real as it gets,and there is no room for understanding or cutting someone some slack if they can't be trusted.

And of course,the same thing would apply if someone had their canteens full of whiskey.

Context is everything,and people who have never served are lacking that context.

Movies,on the other hand are more than mere statements by someone you know. They are visual and audio depictions of actual heroes doing heroic deeds in living color,not the neighbor you see mowing his lawn on weekends talking casually about killing someone who may have had a mother,and maybe even a pet rabbit.

I've never worn the uniform,
but I've heard plenty of stories second and third hand,
and thought they were pretty interesting.

To every rule there are exceptions.

[sneakypete]

Just wanted to give that statement the emphasis it deserves.

I STILL want to know who gave the order
for the guards of those 241 Marines in Lebanon in 1983
to have unloaded guns!
_______

Okay, I just looked here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Beirut_barracks_bombings#Mission

It provides A LITTLE info about it:

@unite for individuality

It is almost always the US Ambassador,who is more concerned about his public image and how well he gets along with the locals than mere trifles like the lives of American soldiers or Marines.

During the VN war MACV-SOG ran covert reconnaissance as well as combat operations against the North Vietnamese Army in both Cambodia and Laos. Because the US Ambassador and the US State Department opposed covert operations,we did this in sterile uniforms,used sterile weapons,and went on combat operations without US Army ID cards or dog tags. If captured,we had no rights at all,and could legally be executed under international law. Which is why almost no one that went missing in either Laos or Cambodia  was ever returned to to the US after the war ended.

Because this was so unpopular with the political elites who valued themselves above all,there were insane restrictions on our operations. In Laos we were not permitted to travel further than 20 or 25 miles west of the border because US Ambassador William Sullivan didn't want to be embarrassed by our presence. In at least one case that is documented this prevented the rescue of 3 live US pilots that were shot down over Laos and kept prisoner. They were there,we knew they were there,and we even knew where "There" was,so CCC (the SOG base camp most familiar with that area) put together a rescue mission that even included manned fuel dumps being established in the jungle so the helicopters could refuel after the rescue. CCC even had a rescue team training for that specific mission.

Sullivan refused to let them launch,and to this very day none of those men or even their remains have been found or even heard of.

It was even worse in Cambodia,where we didn't have an Ambassador. The US State Dept even denied the guys from CCS (the southern SOG base camp) air cover when they were discovered and attacked by the NVA there,and make no mistake about it,there were 10's of thousands of NVA regular troops at established bases in both Laos and Cambodia. Here was a situation where 6 to 12 man teams were going into Cambodia and getting into gunfights with literally hundreds of NVA regulars,and despite jet fighters flying overhead carrying cannons and bombs,they could only get air support from helicopters that might take 30 minutes or more to get to them. SOLELY because the US State Dept wanted to play kissy-face with the communists,and never ONCE did they file an official protest about the 10's of thousands of North Vietnamese regular army soldiers or their permanent bases in both countries.

Here is the story of one mission into Cambodia that went bad from the beginning,and one of the few rare examples where the US Military stood up on their hind legs and defied the State Dept and ordered air support from jet fighter-bombers in order to get their people out. If they hadn't,none would have survived. Most of them wouldn't if it hadn't been for the courage and determination of one man who went into that battle armed with only a Bowie knife. By the time that day ended he had been wounded 36 times by gunshots,shrapnel,bayonet wounds,or fire from rescuing the crew of a shot down helicopter on fire,and as is fitting,left that Bowie Knife sticking up out of the chest of the last NVA that made a bayonet charge on him as he climbed into the extraction helicopter because by that time the Bowie Knife was the only weapon he had left on him.

I consider it an honor to have known and been friends with Roy before this happened. You never met a friendlier and happier guy in your life than him. Or a luckier or tougher one.

http://www.psywarrior.com/benavidez.html

Then again,IIRC,the US State Department back then was still ran by the Harriman Banking Family. The family still exists and has as much,if not more,power than before,but they have changed the name to avoid attention.

[sneakypete]

I have never served.  But I just wanted to add my little 2 cents to this statement.  I feel like this is the same thing as my saying  you've never been an engineer so I'm not going to bother talking to you about that time of my life because you wouldn't understand it.  Or, you've never been a stay at home mom so I'm not goinv to talk to you about it.  It separates us.  And I think it denies comraderie to people who are genuinely interested in your experience and learning from it and in awe of the sacrifices y'all made.

Ok,you are free to think that if you wish,but AFAIAC,it just highlights the fact you wouldn't comprehend actual war stories given orally. See it in a movie,and you can probably identify with it. Hear it orally from most vets who are not professional orators,and you won't have a clue.

I am really hoping I am explaining this in a way that does not seem confrontational.

No problem there. At least from me. I understand your concerns,but am as unable to explain it to you as I am unable to explain combat to you,or colors to someone born blind.

Or you are to explain childbirth to a male.

There ARE some things you have to experience for yourself to be able to relate to them.

My grandpa was in the Ardennes.  He never talked about it with us other than in huge sweeping generalities; it was cold, etc.And I feel like we missed out because I can tell my child that his great grandpa fought at the Bulge, but I have hardly anything that puts a specific human experience with the man.

Luckily for you,your child,and all the rest of us,there have been some excellent movies made about that battle,as well as some very well-written books. The books are good for thoughtful people with good imaginations,but nothing beats the visual and oral aids of the movies to sort of "put you THERE" temporarily.

Try to understand that chances are that he didn't tell you about it because he didn't know HOW to tell you about it without horrifying you and scaring you half to death,as well as the fear that you,as the small child you were at the time,might come to see him as a monster if he provided combat details.

It is true that brutality is the nature of war,but it is also true that some battles are far more brutal than others. The Ardennes was one of those battles,and was so brutal because of both the weather and the fact that the Germans were desperate and this was their last-ditch effort to save Germany from losing the war. Desperate people tend to do desperate things.

[endicom]

This is especially true for VN vets,who the media identified in the minds of the public as "psychotic,drug-addicted,baby killers!" If you were a VN vet and wanted to get a job after taking off your uniform,you never mentioned being a veteran,never mind a combat veteran. I actually had people refuse to hire me and tell me it was because of all the stories they had heard about whacked out VN vets going nuts and killing people.

I didn't have that problem in the NYC area. At work the subject was avoided so you usually didn't know where the people around you stood on the issue.

[sneakypete]

Every time you read a story about a sniper making a ridiculously long shot these days, they're not fired from your grandad's walnut stocked hunting rifle.

@AbaraXas   @edpc

Yeah,but that's mostly because the longest shots are made from rifles chambered for the 50 Caliber BMG round. Nothing else will shoot that far.

BUT......,I used to personally own a glass-bedded bolt action chambered in 300 H&H Magnum that would have had no problem reaching out and touching you at 1000 meters with handloads,depending on the wind.

The fiberglass stocks used today are clearly an improvement over the wooden stocks of old,though. Humidity and rain doesn't affect them and throw off  the POI,and you could probably run over one with a tank and not break the stock.

The only weak spot on sniper rifles today are the optics. Which has been the weak link ever since sniper rifles were conceived. They are rubber coated and MUCH tougher today than at any time in history,though. They are only the "weak link" because everything else is practically indestructible.

Except for the sniper,of course. As always,they are nothing more than mobile bags of blood. Let the blood out and they are just rapidly cooling meat.

[unite for individuality]

@AbaraXas   @edpc

Yeah,but that's mostly because the longest shots are made from rifles chambered for the 50 Caliber BMG round. Nothing else will shoot that far.
...

The only weak spot on sniper rifles today are the optics. Which has been the weak link ever since sniper rifles were conceived. They are rubber coated and MUCH tougher today than at any time in history,though. They are only the "weak link" because everything else is practically indestructible.

Except for the sniper,of course. As always,they are nothing more than mobile bags of blood. Let the blood out and they are just rapidly cooling meat.

Seems to me that the next step will have to be
a rifle equipped with a laser rangefinder,
and computer-controlled servos to actually do the aiming.
The soldier's job will be to just get into position,
anchor it down firmly, and select the target.

For the trigger, there could be a
squeeze bulb at the end of a flexible tube,
like photographers use.

[unite for individuality]

@unite for individuality

It's not boring so much as it is horrifying or shocking,and a lot of times it can cause people to look at you different because "you killed someone". Not only did YOU personally kill someone,but YOU are someone they know who they would have trusted around their families!

I was watching the Ellen show last week.
There's this girl who's about five years old
that Ellen has had on the show several times.

This time the girl went to a Civil War re-enactment.
She seemed to handle it pretty well,
including the part where she met the guy portraying a combat surgeon,
who described the techniques that were used back then.

[Elderberry]

PM Soldier Weapons developing first integrated fire control for small arms weapons

PICATINNY ARSENAL, N.J. -- What does it take for an Army sniper to accurately hit a person-size target at extreme ranges?

The Army thinks it may have the answer to this challenge in a new integrated fire control sighting system for military sniper weapons called the Ballistically Optimized Sniper Scope or BOSS.

"To improve sniper effectiveness, especially at extended distances, we need to find a way to increase accuracy by reducing aiming errors, and minimize the time for the shooter to figure out where to correctly aim his weapon," said Regina Stonitsch, Assistant Product Manager for BOSS at Project Manager Soldier Weapons. "We believe the answer could be the BOSS Project."

"Since sniper rifle and ammunition technologies are unlikely to change considerably in the foreseeable future, we're concentrating our efforts on developing a revolutionary fire control system that will provide a leap in shooter performance and likewise a big return on investment," she said.

The BOSS is a fully integrated, rifle-mounted (using the Picatinny Rail) automated, full-solution fire-control system for sniper weapons. It has a variable power (6-22x magnification) direct view optic coupled with a precision, eye-safe laser range finder. The system also contains an internal environmental sensor suite, platform orientation inclinometers, and sophisticated ballistic calculator.

@unite for individuality
https://www.army.mil/article/180370/pm_soldier_weapons_developing_first_integrated_fire_control_for_small_arms_weapons

[sneakypete]

@unite for individuality

Seems to me that the next step will have to be
a rifle equipped with a laser rangefinder,
and computer-controlled servos to actually do the aiming.
The soldier's job will be to just get into position,
anchor it down firmly, and select the target.

I will be shocked to discover these aren't already being fielded. The technology has existed for quite some time now,and Uncle Sugar has plenty of dollars to spend for stuff like this. After all,you have a whole staff of senior NCO's and Officers spending weeks or even months tracking some goober down to drop him,agents on the ground paying cash for locations and associates,aircraft and helicopters flying insertion or air-cover missions,drones beaming the videos back to Scotty, trained sniper teams on the ground with years of training and experience,etc,etc,etc,and that stuff alone adds up to mega bucks,so how expensive can the rifles be compared to the other expenses?

[RoosGirl]

http://www.cnbc.com/2014/01/09/this-smart-rifle-never-misses-now-in-semi-automatic-form.html

[RoosGirl]

https://www.livescience.com/46772-darpa-self-guided-sniper-bullets.html

[Bigun]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0oGZ4TZr5k

[RoosGirl]

http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,270850.msg1381646/topicseen.html#msg1381646