Author Topic: If ‘Woke’ Puritanism Is the Disease, Trump’s Amoral Populism Isn’t the Cure  (Read 2235 times)

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Offline roamer_1

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In light of this, the intellectual right had a chance to broaden its coalition, and fashion what I’ve termed a “rational populist” consensus that marginalises leftist extremism.

There is no such thing as 'rational populism', and never can there be, by definition.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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There is no such thing as 'rational populism', and never can there be, by definition.

Disagree though. Populism is basically anti-elitism. If the elites are really that bad, and are actively suppressing the majority, then it's not irrational at all.

Offline roamer_1

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Disagree though. Populism is basically anti-elitism. If the elites are really that bad, and are actively suppressing the majority, then it's not irrational at all.

That's not right. Conservatism is anti-elitism, by the numbers. Populism is nothing but an emotional gasp... a low bow to whatever is popular. In that it will never develop any further than the roar of the crowd. Two years from now, it will transform into something wholly different. And this movement will die on the shoals of the next.

It is nothing but bare emotionalism.

Offline The_Reader_David

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... Conservatism is anti-elitism, by the numbers. Populism is nothing but an emotional gasp... a low bow to whatever is popular....
It is nothing but bare emotionalism.

No, that is not what populism is.  Look in a dictionary or a commentary on populism.  Populism describes any political movement that claims to vindicate the interests of the common people against a corrupt elite.  It has nothing to do with chasing what is popular. Whether it is good or bad depends on whether the elite of the society really is corrupt.  When it is (as is arguably the case with the professional managerial class of the early 21st century) populism is a good thing.

Nor is conservatism necessarily anti-elitist.  It is neither hostile to nor favorably to elites qua elites.  Conserving a civilization (or even just the American Founding) is not something that can be done just by the mass of people.  One needs certain sorts of elites:  learned jurists committed to precedent and original intent, educators who know the history and great achievements of the civilization to pass them on, and in the case of Western Civilization of which the scientific method and the technologies it spawned are among the great achievements, scientists and engineers to keep advancing the material accomplishments of the civilization.

At this moment American Conservatism, even the Trump-skeptical wing, is, in fact, populist:  our jurists subvert precedent and original intent, our educators denigrate our civilization, and the practice of science has been corrupted by turning it into the handmaiden of political agendas (climate alarmism and COVID pandemic policy as social control) or even simply by the necessity of doing what all the others are doing so as to get grant funding (40 plus years of effort in American theoretical physics wasted because everyone "knew" that string theory -- which never made a testable prediction -- would solve all the open problems).  But that is only because our elites are corrupt. 
« Last Edit: April 11, 2025, 10:17:57 pm by The_Reader_David »
And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know what this was all about.

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Corruption vitiates everything.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline kevindavis007

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Populism is not conservatism
Join The Reagan Caucus: https://reagancaucus.org/ and the Eisenhower Caucus: https://EisenhowerCaucus.org

Ronald Reagan: “Rather than...talking about putting up a fence, why don’t we work out some recognition of our mutual problems and make it possible for them to come here legally with a work permit…earning here they pay taxes here.”

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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What in the MAGA/America First "populist" agenda isn't "conservative"?





« Last Edit: April 12, 2025, 09:05:15 am by Right_in_Virginia »

Offline roamer_1

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No, that is not what populism is.


Yes in fact, it is. If a fervor was raised about baseball referees as a political target - Those referees would be destroyed, without any deep search for the truth of the claim... THAT is populist. Its definition may be more urbane, but that is how populism operates. It chases after the popular notion of the day - Sure that is couched as common vs. elite - Of course it is. That is always the case in uprisings. But it bears no weight of thought. It operates without guardrails - where it can claim fiscal conservatism while operating with spending at all-time limits like Tumpy's last administration. And it always dies as quickly as it rises. Because it is tied to the popular notions of the day which wax and wane according to the hens clucking and the hour of the suns rising...

Quote
Nor is conservatism necessarily anti-elitist.  It is neither hostile to nor favorably to elites qua elites.  Conserving a civilization (or even just the American Founding) is not something that can be done just by the mass of people.  One needs certain sorts of elites:  learned jurists committed to precedent and original intent, educators who know the history and great achievements of the civilization to pass them on, and in the case of Western Civilization of which the scientific method and the technologies it spawned are among the great achievements, scientists and engineers to keep advancing the material accomplishments of the civilization.


'Just a mass of people'... Like populism, you mean...  :laugh:

Yes, I will accept the idea that conservatism requires a certain form of elitism. But in the case of Conservatism at its best, that elitism is obtained in merit. And in that, them that can brag, let em. This is how you find elites rising to the top of a purpose - not installed by some government bureaucracy, not maintained by some inheritance - such ways lack the wisdom and can-do that are required in actual leadership, that can only be found in merit.

I have no problem with elites that deserve the title. Those who won that by merit. And that mechanism is preserved in Conservatism. 

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At this moment American Conservatism, even the Trump-skeptical wing, is, in fact, populist:


I will disagree profoundly. Those not on Tumpy's train (like myself) will keep their powder dry. This populism that surrounds Tumpy is not conservative. It offends Conservatism.

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But that is only because our elites are corrupt.


No, EVERYTHING is corrupt. That's the difference. It is not purely the fault of leadership or elites. The fault is in every one of us, including me. In the end, the power rests in the people, according to American theory, so laying blame on the Democrats or the elites is just shallow enough to be populist. And it is in error.

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Conservatism since Buckley has certainly always had a streak of populism in it. But it still tried to defend things that liberal populists attacked: capitalism, corporations etc.

Now IMO it's indistinguishable from 1980's/90's liberalism: pro-tariffs, anti-"big pharma" etc. etc.

Offline the OlLine Rebel

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Conservatism since Buckley has certainly always had a streak of populism in it. But it still tried to defend things that liberal populists attacked: capitalism, corporations etc.

Now IMO it's indistinguishable from 1980's/90's liberalism: pro-tariffs, anti-"big pharma" etc. etc.

Yup, Trump is hijacking the “party” and converting it to actual Dem Lite, while we’ve been complaining about RINOs for decades.  The only real difference between Trump and Dems (which he has supported), is a big mouth saying some things rightists want to hear, most notably “illegal aliens”.  I like some that he does and articulates, but too much isn’t that conservative (including using the tyrannical EO to be like…a tyrant changing things on a dime).  Never mind just being a bull in the China shop.
Common sense is an uncommon virtue.

Offline roamer_1

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much isn’t that conservative (including using the tyrannical EO to be like…a tyrant changing things on a dime).  Never mind just being a bull in the China shop.

More to the point, that EO is basically meaningless. It only matters to the populists because they get to shake their asses at the enemy... But in reality, 4 years from now, POOF! No eyebrows.

Offline DCPatriot

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More to the point, that EO is basically meaningless. It only matters to the populists because they get to shake their asses at the enemy... But in reality, 4 years from now, POOF! No eyebrows.

BZZZZZZ!! Wrong again...liver and onions breath!

Donald Trump is the 18 to 55 year-old Americans' 'Ronald Reagan' following a 'Jimmy Carter' type administration.  Give the working American some credit.  Nobody wants to return to the Democrat Party.
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

The idea that somebody looked at a purple onion and called it a red onion really bothers me.   

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline roamer_1

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BZZZZZZ!! Wrong again...liver and onions breath!

Donald Trump is the 18 to 55 year-old Americans' 'Ronald Reagan' following a 'Jimmy Carter' type administration.  Give the working American some credit.  Nobody wants to return to the Democrat Party.


Nope. Gone like a fart in a windstorm in four short years... And four years for the Dems to build out their bench... To build a much superior force.

Read my lips: Without Congress... without writing LAW, there can be no legacy. Populism ALWAYS ebbs. Always loses steam. And then goes chasing after the next shiny thing.

No credit given, because no credit is due.

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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What in the MAGA/America First "populist" agenda isn't "conservative"?

Does anyone have an answer??

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Yup, Trump is hijacking the “party” and converting it to actual Dem Lite, while we’ve been complaining about RINOs for decades.  The only real difference between Trump and Dems (which he has supported), is a big mouth saying some things rightists want to hear, most notably “illegal aliens”.  I like some that he does and articulates, but too much isn’t that conservative (including using the tyrannical EO to be like…a tyrant changing things on a dime).  Never mind just being a bull in the China shop.

This post supports the growing opinion that  "conservatives" are the new low information voters. 

Offline roamer_1

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Does anyone have an answer??

Yes. ALL of it isn't Conservative.

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Yes. ALL of it isn't Conservative.

Your recent posts are factually ignorant and untethered from reality --- making me most grateful you have been politically neutered.

Offline DCPatriot

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Your recent posts are factually ignorant and untethered from reality --- making me most grateful you have been politically neutered.

@Right_in_Virginia

The 2ne most difficult three word phrase to utter for @roamer_1 : I WAS WRONG!

The impossible phrase for him: I DON'T KNOW!!
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

The idea that somebody looked at a purple onion and called it a red onion really bothers me.   

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline Hoodat

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What in the MAGA/America First "populist" agenda isn't "conservative"?

You really ask this question after bashing Conservatives here for the last nine years?
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline roamer_1

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Your recent posts are factually ignorant and untethered from reality --- making me most grateful you have been politically neutered.

Funny. Because if your movement were anywhere near Conservative I would be your biggest fan.

Offline roamer_1

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@Right_in_Virginia

The 2ne most difficult three word phrase to utter for @roamer_1 : I WAS WRONG!

The impossible phrase for him: I DON'T KNOW!!


I very happily admit when I am wrong - I have done so here often. But only when I am wrong. And there's plenty I don't know, and I have admitted that hereon too, many times mere days ago, for one. So your accusation holds no water. @DCPatriot  :shrug:

Offline Hoodat

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Does anyone have an answer??

Let's back up step, shall we?  Conservatives here have been urging Trump (or any other Republican) to slash spending and balance the budget - this Conservative in particular.  The response I've gotten from you and DC has been that Trump can't do that because he'll lose the next election if he does.

But once Trump steps into office, he takes his cue from Javier Milei, brings on Elon Musk, and begins doing exactly that - using his Executive authority to begin cutting out waste, fraud, and abuse.  And Conservatives have cheered it on, even with you two on the sideline.  Yet now you want to come forward and take credit for Trump actually doing something Conservative even though you were dead set against it?  Not a chance.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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You really ask this question after bashing Conservatives here for the last nine years?

I haven't bashed "conservatism".  I ridicule those who place more value on and insistence that "conservative" policies only count if they come stamped with the word and are carried by a self-identified and Reagan cult-approved conservative politician. 

So, I'll ask again:  What in the MAGA/America First agenda isn't conservative?

Offline Hoodat

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I haven't bashed "conservatism".

Oh yes you have.  Repeatedly.


I ridicule those who place more value on and insistence that "conservative" policies only count if they come stamped with the word and are carried by a self-identified and Reagan cult-approved conservative politician.

Yet no one here is doing that.  Go figure.  See what happens when you make shit up as you go?


So, I'll ask again:  What in the MAGA/America First agenda isn't conservative?

Funding Planned Parenthood
Blocking the sale of US Steel to Nippon
Amnesty for illegals who self-deport and then get fast-tracked right back in.
Getting rid of the debt ceiling limit
Supporting continuing resolutions
Ditching Free Trade agreements
Advocating for Protectionism


Now having said that, I repeat that I am ecstatic that Trump did not listen to people like you this time around and has given Elon Must free reign to target waste, graft, and abuse in the Executive Branch and has been willing to use his Executive authority to end it.  But for some reason, that's not good enough for you (especially since you never supported doing that from the start).
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline DCPatriot

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Let's back up step, shall we?  Conservatives here have been urging Trump (or any other Republican) to slash spending and balance the budget - this Conservative in particular.  The response I've gotten from you and DC has been that Trump can't do that because he'll lose the next election if he does.

But once Trump steps into office, he takes his cue from Javier Milei, brings on Elon Musk, and begins doing exactly that - using his Executive authority to begin cutting out waste, fraud, and abuse.  And Conservatives have cheered it on, even with you two on the sideline.  Yet now you want to come forward and take credit for Trump actually doing something Conservative even though you were dead set against it?  Not a chance.

What a load of crap!  You're GD right I'll take credit for whatever President Trump accomplishes because I'm not a phony supporter like you and your Boyz here on the forum.

Said that he only had 24 months in which to increase his majority in both Houses or else he becomes a enuch. 

Never anticipated "DOGE" to be born.  And neither did you.  You had scary nightmares about Pres. Trump up until weeks before the election and had sat on the fence until your hemorrhoids started to bleed.


"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

The idea that somebody looked at a purple onion and called it a red onion really bothers me.   

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline Hoodat

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What a load of crap!  You're GD right I'll take credit for whatever President Trump accomplishes because I'm not a phony supporter like you and your Boyz here on the forum.

Four months ago, I stated that Trump needed to hit the ground running and use his Executive authority to take a chainsaw to every government agency.  Your response?  You said that would be foolish, and that the only thing Trump needed to concentrate on was winning the 2026 midterms.  But hey, if you want to take credit for Trump doing what I said he needed to do while you  opposed it, then have at it.  It's your integrity on the line here, not mine.


Never anticipated "DOGE" to be born.  And neither did you.

Are you high?  I've been calling for it since I first joined this forum.  I just didn't anticipate that Trump would suddenly believe that spending was out of control, especially after his first term.  The issue now is not whether you or I anticipated DOGE to be born.  The issue is that you have opposed DOGE during the entirety of your Trump lovefest.  And even now, I don't hear you cheering it on nearly as loudly as us deficit hawks.  I realize that standing on principles like that conflict with your deification complex.  But I really don't give a damn.  So keep on with your hypocrisy and take credit for Trump doing the exact opposite of what you said he should do.  I'll take the balanced budget and be thrilled with it.  If he pulls it off, he'll be the greatest President since Ike.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Funding Planned Parenthood
Blocking the sale of US Steel to Nippon
Amnesty for illegals who self-deport and then get fast-tracked right back in.
Getting rid of the debt ceiling limit
Supporting continuing resolutions
Ditching Free Trade agreements
Advocating for Protectionism

Your ilk is now toxic *and* desperate.  :bigsilly:

Offline DCPatriot

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"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

The idea that somebody looked at a purple onion and called it a red onion really bothers me.   

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline Hoodat

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Your ilk is now toxic

Your ilk is in denial.  Every item on that has documentation supporting it, each of which have already been presented to you.  Like I said, 'denial'.

The amazing thing here is that I have been one of Trump's most vocal supporters regarding DOGE.  Yet that still isn't good enough for you.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2025, 11:32:16 am by Hoodat »
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline DCPatriot

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Your ilk is in denial.  Every item on that has documentation supporting it, each of which have already been presented to you.  Like I said, 'denial'.

The amazing thing here is that I have been one of Trump's most vocal supporters regarding DOGE.  Yet that still isn't good enough for you.

"Amazing" my white dimpled a$$! 

What self-respecting Conservative wouldn't be a supporter of DOGE! 

You're a Johnny Come Lately on the Trump Bandwagon.
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

The idea that somebody looked at a purple onion and called it a red onion really bothers me.   

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline roamer_1

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What self-respecting Conservative wouldn't be a supporter of DOGE! 


Me. It's smoke.

That is not money saved. That is money turned back to the agency or to the general fund, where it can be spent any other way.

And since it is ordained by EO, the minute the Dems are back in power (which may be no more than 2 years from now) All of those things can (and will) come roaring back - And probably with funding to cover this dearth and more...

And DOGE will be kept, with its summary authority in all things, and turned inside out to become the very antithesis of its inception.

Mark my words... Because its coming.

Offline DCPatriot

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Me. It's smoke.

That is not money saved. That is money turned back to the agency or to the general fund, where it can be spent any other way.

And since it is ordained by EO, the minute the Dems are back in power (which may be no more than 2 years from now) All of those things can (and will) come roaring back - And probably with funding to cover this dearth and more...

And DOGE will be kept, with its summary authority in all things, and turned inside out to become the very antithesis of its inception.

Mark my words... Because its coming.

See?  Always with a need to appear the smartest one in any room.  Even the Briefing Room!

LOL!  You're in a league by yourself, my friend!
   tipping hat!!
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

The idea that somebody looked at a purple onion and called it a red onion really bothers me.   

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline Hoodat

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"Amazing" my white dimpled a$$! 

What self-respecting Conservative wouldn't be a supporter of DOGE!


Conservatives support DOGE because making drastic cuts to federal spending IS Conservative.  You don't support DOGE because it's Conservative.  You support DOGE only because Trump is  doing it.  If Trump were doing the exact opposite like he did in his first term - handing Planned Parenthood $2 billion in taxpayer money, pushing Fauci BS, or running up $8 trillion in new debt, you would be supporting that too (since Trump was the one doing it).  Come to think of it, you DID support all that leftist bullshit.  Because sucking up to Trump is more important than standing up to principle every time.


You're a Johnny Come Lately on the Trump Bandwagon.


I'm not on the Trump Bandwagon.  I'm on the Conservative Bandwagon.  Perhaps you are the Johnny Come Lately here.  Supporting Conservative ideals for the first time in your life (albeit weakly).
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline Hoodat

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Me. It's smoke.

That is not money saved. That is money turned back to the agency or to the general fund, where it can be spent any other way.

I am really hoping for something good at the end of the fiscal year.  But your cynicism is well supported by history, @roamer_1 .

I have long said that Congress lacks the discipline to balance the budget, which is why it is up to a President to refuse to spend the money.  Trump is actually doing that (for now) which is totally out of his character to do.  We'll see what happens the last week of September.
If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power.     -Dwight Eisenhower-

"The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals ... it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government ... it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen's protection against the government."     -Ayn Rand-

Offline roamer_1

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See?  Always with a need to appear the smartest one in any room.  Even the Briefing Room!

LOL!  You're in a league by yourself, my friend!
   tipping hat!!

It is simple to foresee. You need only look at his first administration, or any number of iterations through time.

Them that don't know history are doomed to repeat it. And here we go again.

Offline roamer_1

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I am really hoping for something good at the end of the fiscal year.  But your cynicism is well supported by history, @roamer_1 .

I have long said that Congress lacks the discipline to balance the budget, which is why it is up to a President to refuse to spend the money.  Trump is actually doing that (for now) which is totally out of his character to do.  We'll see what happens the last week of September.

I really do hope that the end of the fiscal year shows something more than modest savings, @Hoodat  . But it won't.  We are so terribly over budget and out of control that modest savings are incidental.

Even several trillion in savings (which will in no way happen) is pissin on a forest fire, and to add insult to injury, since any savings are built out of EOs, those savings will be ... WILL BE fleeting.

Because the Democrats will come to power again. You can bet money on that. And every EO will be overturned again, just like last time.

NONE of it matters without a Congress, jealous of its powers. THAT is where the emphasis, and thereby the effort must be spent. Until that, it is likely all for naught. A waste of time and energy.

Offline jmyrlefuller

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Conservatism since Buckley has certainly always had a streak of populism in it. But it still tried to defend things that liberal populists attacked: capitalism, corporations etc.

Now IMO it's indistinguishable from 1980's/90's liberalism: pro-tariffs, anti-"big pharma" etc. etc.
It was always funny to me that Trump's proposals are largely indistinguishable from those that the Democrats themselves ran on in 2006, and now the Democrats are running with the same argument globalist Republicans ran on, including the embrace of trickle-down economics ("tariffs are just passed on to the consumer!").

It just shows how absolutely disingenuous most of the politics surrounding fiscal policy truly are. (Foreign policy, too, if you think about it.) Really the only thing that actually drives solid and consistent ideological divides are the ones where government, at least in theory, should have the least influence: social issues.
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Offline roamer_1

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It was always funny to me that Trump's proposals are largely indistinguishable from those that the Democrats themselves ran on in 2006, and now the Democrats are running with the same argument globalist Republicans ran on, including the embrace of trickle-down economics ("tariffs are just passed on to the consumer!").

It just shows how absolutely disingenuous most of the politics surrounding fiscal policy truly are. (Foreign policy, too, if you think about it.) Really the only thing that actually drives solid and consistent ideological divides are the ones where government, at least in theory, should have the least influence: social issues.

I think that's right.  :beer: